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Author Topic: Pentax 800mm f/6.7 on Digital (PhaseOne IQ180)  (Read 3978 times)
Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2013, 10:24:15 AM »
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Lacunapratum
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2013, 12:21:58 PM »
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I agree with henrikfoto that the distractive effects of the donut shaped background diffraction phenomena are often overestimated. 

MFD with long telephoto lenses is certainly possible, but much more involved than technical data may suggest.  As I was saying, the Mirotar or the Zeiss Jena are one good approach.  Both have comparable resolution.  Speed and design of these lenses are fairly favorable when compared to the alternatives. 

The 800mm/f4 Pentax 67 is not an alternative, as chromatic abberations are not acceptable for digital use.  FF would yield much better images. 

The 600mm and 800mm Pentax ED lenses are a viable alternative, but you'd have to make considerable effort to reduce vibration.  Feasible, but not easy.  You would need good light.  Moving animals at dusk or dawn are almost impossible.     

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tsjanik
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2013, 02:48:18 PM »
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If you haven't seen this Brian:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/Pentax-800mm.shtml
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2013, 06:36:12 PM »
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Yes, thank you I have seen the LuLa articles on the 600mm f4 and the 800mm f6.7.......I think I will try my Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 APO with its 2x TC....I don't know why I wasn't considering that before, aside from vingetting, as we can see from my testing its pretty damn good on sharpness etc, and I wasn't experiencing any vibration issues in good light with the 645DF body. 600mm might be on the short end but then again I was considering the 600mm f4 and that isn't terribly faster to make it worth the financial and physical stress.

I should give the 300mm f/2.8 A real workout, and not just on a stuffed owl.

http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2012/08/21/mamiya-300mm-f2-8-apo-lens-review-with-sample-images-and-comparisons/
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Lacunapratum
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2013, 10:06:24 PM »
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Sounds like a good plan to me  Smiley.
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atlnq9
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2013, 12:02:56 PM »
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I don't have experience with the Pentax M* 67 800mm 6.7; but I do have experience with the Pentax M* 67 400mm 4.0 and Pentax A* 645 600mm 5.6 on a Pentax 645D.  So some of this may be good information for you.

Not sure how much you know about Pentax lenses but you don't want the old 6x7 lenses that do not have a star designation.  This primarily only leaves the Pentax 67 M* 400mm (which I have) and the Pentax 67 M* 800mm.  Stay away from the 6x7 400mm 4.0, 6x7 600mm 4.0, and 6x7 800mm 4.0.  Aberrations and sharpness are not up to digital...  The 645 A* 600mm is an excellent performer but is not up to a 1.4x converter.  Ergonomics are fantastic on this lens.  The 67 M* 400mm 4.0 is a fantastic performer and is up to a 1.4x converter; however, the ergonomics are not as good.  This lens does not have the top handle and requires an adapter.  Still up in the air which is my favorite lens since the 400mm is the optically best performer but the 600m is the usability performer...

Now for the medium format vs dslr discussion.  Well before the d800 a dslr did not even cross my mind.  It came down to in most circumstances I got the same quality image as was coming out of 16-20mp dslr with my 40mp medium format; sharpness, focus, higher iso, motion, etc. resulted in an image that could only be printed to that size and not show image imperfections.  However, on that rare 20% occasion you yield an excellent image.  And thats what it was all about using the medium format.  However, now with the advent of the d800 the game has changed.  Sure, it is still a battle to pull the full resolution but there is more in your favor with the dslr and image stabilized auto focus lenses.  I would have a d800 now to make a decision if I wasn't living in Namibia...  But I am.  Now on the other hand I like the 6x7 and square format so a digital medium format is a good ratio to crop to that...

Anyways, on to the use of long lenses on medium format.  First I find I have to have a focus magnifier to obtain crisp focus.  Second a solid wooden tripod is best, just seems to work better than carbon or aluminum.  I also use the really right stuff parts for the long lens support with an additional clamp going to the mount on the camera.  Then a 4th leg like the manfroto lens support which goes from the camera down to the tripod to further stabilize.  Weight the whole thing down with bean bags...  Setup takes a lot of practice to get everything setup outside, nail focus and get everything locked down followed by mirror up...  Third you have to have decent light or bump the iso higher than you want as with that amount of resolution you need to be using fast shutter speeds.  I found a drop in polarizer was a life saver here because you could shoot a little later in the morning and a little early in the evening when the light was bright enough.  It helps keep you from loosing contrast...  But again takes light away...  Shooting from a vehicle was difficult, possible but difficult.  Shutter speed and movement inside the vehicle must be watched very closely.  Vehicle must be turned off as is common sense...

Now on a side topic less than 5% of my wildlife images are shot with the long lenses.  It just has to have a lot working in your favor to pull it off.  I rather have better luck with a 300mm and incorporate much more of the landscape.  It works well here as the landscape is amazing that we have animals in.  The long lenses are used for about 10% of landscapes (primarily the 400mm) as it is a unique perspective creating some nice abstracts...  However, that leaves to massive and expensive lenses used for less than 6% of my photography.  I can't help but think I would use the longer focal length perspective more with a d800 as more things are in your favor.

Anyways, I think that is some good information to help you.  Ask any questions you want, I have been using the system for two years now on everything from lions, elephants, antelopes, landscapes, etc.
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2013, 02:43:14 PM »
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Thank you for your in=depth response, do you have any experience with the SMC pentax-FA* 645 300mm F4 ED [IF] or the SMC Pentax-FA 645 400mm F5.6 ED [IF] the 400mm seems attractive especially considering it has AF on a 645D, any thoughts on these?

Do I assume correctly that adding a TC to the 400mm on the 645D would loose AF?
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atlnq9
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2013, 02:56:07 PM »
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Thank you for your in=depth response, do you have any experience with the SMC pentax-FA* 645 300mm F4 ED [IF] or the SMC Pentax-FA 645 400mm F5.6 ED [IF] the 400mm seems attractive especially considering it has AF on a 645D, any thoughts on these?

Do I assume correctly that adding a TC to the 400mm on the 645D would loose AF?

The Pentax FA* or A* 300mm f4 is an absolutely fantastic lens.  This is my most used lens for wildlife.  Another option which I use quite a lot is the Pentax FA 300mm 5.6.  This lens is incredibly light and compact, handholds easily, doesn't require quite as fast a shutter speed due to the light weight...  If you can get it stopped down to f8 it compares exactly to the 4.0 EDIF lens yet allows for a slightly slower shutter speed...

No experience with the 645 FA 400mm as I was told it was less than a star lens and I have the 67 M* 400mm.  I have always wanted to try it though since it is AF and lighter than the 67 version.

Unfortunately Pentax never made a AF teleconverter for a medium format system.  I find the 645 1.4x teleconverter to be pretty subpar.  Does not perform exceptional on either the 300mm 4.0 or 600mm 5.6.  Could be my copy, but I have my doubts that Pentax ever focused much effort on it...  The 67 teleconverter is exceptional though, designed specifically to work on the 67 M* 400mm 4.0 but also works on the 67 M* 300mm 4.0.  Truly exceptional on the M* 400mm 4.0.  The 67 M* 800mm had a specially designed 1.4x with it that works on no other lens, I presume that is an exceptional combination.

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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2013, 02:59:15 PM »
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Thank you for the added details Smiley
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atlnq9
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2013, 03:08:28 PM »
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No problem!

BTW you rarely see any of the 645 or 67 long star lenses for sale.  Took me 8 months to find my 645 A* 600mm 5.6.  But there has been a 67 M* 800mm 6.7 on ebay for a long time now.  I have been eyeing it over and over.  But a big risk bringing it to the US or Africa from Poland sight unseen for 6k...  And even rarer to find is the drop in polarizer, if you want the drop in polarizer don't expect to find it for sale on it's own.  Wait for a lens that includes it or expect to buy a lens later including it then turn around and resell the lens...  Th 67 drop in polarizer fits both M* 400mm and 800mm lenses and is a bit more common.  I have only ever seen one drop in polarizer for the 645 A* 600mm 5.6...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pentax-M-67-800mm-F6-7-800-mm-ED-IF-Lens-SMC-M-Star-For-Pentax-67-/261000277796?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item3cc4d42f24
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2013, 03:12:40 PM »
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The 645 600mm f5.6 looks like it would be the most attractive option. I saw the 800mm 6.7 on ebay and contacted the seller but the response I received to asking if it was the earlier 8 or the later 10 element version was "I DO NOT KNOW" like that in all caps. Not sure if that is very confidence inspiring in a seller.
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2013, 09:09:56 PM »
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The 400mm/5.6 EDIF is a stellar lens, at least as good as the 300mm/4 EDIF.  They both work with the 1.4x teleconverter and I found that converter to be quite good.  The 600mm/5.6 or the adapted 800mm/6.7 both are better than the 300mm and the 400mm with teleconverter though, and heavier I might add  Cheesy
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chrismuc
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 01:31:50 AM »
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... I wait until Stefan's (Hartblei) Mamiya RX67 - Contax 645 helicoid adapter becomes available to try the Mam RX67 500f6 Apo (+ 1.4x extender)
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2013, 09:43:11 AM »
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The Pentax TC 1.4X has a very good reputation with the 300mm and 400mm lenses--it was actually designed for them.
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tsjanik
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2013, 11:29:15 AM »
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Thank you for your in=depth response, do you have any experience with the SMC pentax-FA* 645 300mm F4 ED [IF] or the SMC Pentax-FA 645 400mm F5.6 ED [IF] the 400mm seems attractive especially considering it has AF on a 645D, any thoughts on these?

Do I assume correctly that adding a TC to the 400mm on the 645D would loose AF?

Brian:

The 400 is excellent.  If you have access to Llyod Chamber's site you can read his review.  The lens is light, very sharp and easy to find.  I find the AF accurate and usable for wildlife on the 645D.
These are handheld BTW.
Tom

Some examples:



1_IGP7118 by tsjanik47, on Flickr


_IGP6448 by tsjanik47, on Flickr
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2013, 04:37:23 PM »
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Thanks, that makes it a mighty tempting second camera, maybe I'll rent one or just bring one along.

As for my solution, I had another good idea (after realizing I had a 600mm lens a la 300mm f/2.8 APO + 2xTC).

It came to me today, that since I have an 80mp back, I can crop 50% and it will still be a 40mp file. Now you may go well duh, but thats effectively doubling the focal length with a center crop. In my Lizard image (which I like so much) I used a 300mm lens alone on a P65+ and was able to do a significant crop, so halving an 80mp is no issue.

However this could be very hard to frame in the viewfinder. So I had the idea of getting a viewfinder mask made that only shows the center 50% of the viewfinder. Then I will buy the Mamiya 2x viewfinder magnifier (which i know vignettes but that isn't the issue since I'm using a small area). and when I look through the camera it will be as if i added a second 2x TC to my camera (or atleast I can visualize what it will be like if I do.) This may mean having a 645DF body that has the viewfinder mask in it and a second for regular pictures, but its much easier, and smarter since vibration isnt an issue with this rig instead of what you would need to get to a 1200mm focal length with any of these pentax lenses... 
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2013, 07:47:37 PM »
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Brian, if you crop 50% top and bottom, you have 20MP left with your IQ180. If you crop to 40MP, the 645D will still have a larger image area--44x33mm vs. 38x28mm for the IQ180 (the Pentax has bigger pixels, my friend (and a bigger viewfinder)).

I am unsure why you think a 1,200mm lens on a 645D to equal a 600mm lens on an IQ180. The 44x33mm format is only a 1.27 crop factor from a 6x4.5 frame. A 760mm lens on a 645D would be an equivalent.
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2013, 07:53:26 PM »
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The viewfinder mask will be for the IQ180, the 645D would just be for the 400mm lens
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2013, 07:58:28 PM »
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the 645D would just be for the 400mm lens

Welcome to the dark side, young Skywalker. ;>
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Lacunapratum
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 08:03:58 PM »
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"but the response I received to asking if it was the earlier 8 or the later 10 element version was "I DO NOT KNOW" like that in all caps"

Most sellers unscrew their lenses when they receive such a question from an interested buyer, count the individual elements, and then glue the lens back together.   Grin 
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