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Author Topic: Handling amature professional photographer clients for printing  (Read 4547 times)
stamper
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 02:40:14 AM »
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Quote Ken B.

Nobody in this world has ever taught me anything - ever.  Everything I know is from hands on trial and error.  How easy it has become to pay a few dollars and learn everything you need to know in just hours as opposed to spending years like I did perfecting my skills and turning it into craftsmanship.

Unquote

On one hand you state that it took you years to learn but you think that it could be taught in just a few hours?

Must have been a slow learner?  Grin
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Justan
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 10:39:51 AM »
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Some are very protective of their skills. This is understandable and completely reasonable. Itís a choice.

It is an odd behavioral thing in the age of the internet that some will not only ask that others to reveal anything, but some few will behave in a very childish way and demand and then personally insult those who do not desire not to do so, as has been done here.

I donít think anyone would suggest that Bill T is not only very forthcoming with information, heís also gone well out of his way on a countless number of occasions to provide in-depth answers to a questions, and he has contributed a large amount of detailed knowledge to this site. Most would agree that he is one of the best contributors of the site.

As to doing workshops, one has to have the temperament to successfully make this kind of presentation. It is far easier to provide a direct answer to a question than it is to answer the question for 20 workshop students who each donít have a working basis to understand an answer very well, or sometimes at all.

Take for instance, working with layers in Photoshop. I never cease to be amazed that most beginners do not have any idea how to make a layer in Photoshop, or what to do with it once itís made. This has to be taught and explained enough so that the recipient ends up being able to duplicate what is being presented to them and then able to make abstract relationships between goals and technical tools. Helping someone learn this can be very trying and time consuming. Not everyone can or wants to do help others do this. But if the student does not understand what a layer is and how to use it, then any of a number of details that rely upon a new layer as a starting point, will be lost.

Again it takes the right temperament to teach and that is why teaching is a specialized calling. The difference between answering a question and providing instruction is the difference between a colleague and a college.

This digression aside, a dominant theme in this thread is one of how to reach out to others, to promote business activity without insulting them, and there have been a variety of useful answers.

Can those of you who have decided that your contribution here is only to insult someone kindly stop doing so, so that the thread will not be further derailed?
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 11:33:46 AM »
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     The only artists I have ever known that were worried about being copied and refused to teach what they have learned......were well ....not very good at what they did and were probably incapable of teaching it. Not saying this is you.....but it is a observation I have made many times in life....

It is not my paintings I'm worried about being copied.  I am a professional artist and would be glad to post some images of my work to verify how "good" I am.  As an artist, you either have talent or you don't.  Raw talent can't be taught.  I'm not worried about my copied paintings, which are out there, I have seen a few.

I have in the past taught folks a thing or two and the next thing I know they have set up shop trying to eliminate me from the businesses.  Not only printing, but other areas of business I have been involved in.

On this board I have given advice more than a few times.  This is different, we are all doing the same thing here already.  I'm talking about complete newbies who want nothing more than to learn something quick and set up shop.  I will no longer help anyone around my area to be my direct competitor.
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 11:35:01 AM »
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Quote Ken B.

Nobody in this world has ever taught me anything - ever.  Everything I know is from hands on trial and error.  How easy it has become to pay a few dollars and learn everything you need to know in just hours as opposed to spending years like I did perfecting my skills and turning it into craftsmanship.

Unquote

On one hand you state that it took you years to learn but you think that it could be taught in just a few hours?

Must have been a slow learner?  Grin



Son, you have no idea.  Just leave it at that.
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enduser
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 03:54:58 PM »
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"Close-thread" time?
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Bullfrog
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 07:38:02 PM »
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My 2c.

I purchased my first wide format printer just over 3 years ago and in hindsight its cost me thousands (including purchase price, ink, paper) to learn what I have learned in the past 3 years owning it and I've probably barely touched the surface of what others know.   I think I'm the only one on my street with a $2000 stretched canvas digital print hanging in my hallway:-0

 So on one hand, I do understand not wanting to "give it away".  I have toiled and tormented myself on the entire process, including glazing, wrapping, and final packaging.

So - to the op, speaking for myself, to be honest, while I would appreciate your super duper expertise, I'm not the kind of market that wants you to do it for me - I'm the kind of user that wants you to SHOW me how I can do it.   Its not efficiency - its passion.

But, I don't expect knowledge for nothing and I WOULD pay for classes or workshops.  I see some photographers advertising this kind of help on their website and if they were in my area,  I think why not.  They can possibly sell some supplies or equipment as well- and while some people will just come to "steal" their ideas without returning to use their services - so what.  

Having done this photography thing for a while now, I have learned its as much an art, as a science, and while you may explain to me by rote how to do your workflow -  it still requires practice, style, flair and a fair degree of skill and artistic eye to replicate because every image is different.  

I admit I am not self-employed as a photographer or printer - but I am self-employed and have been for many years and I have yet to find myself without competition.  I realize part of selling myself, is being open about what I know (within reason  Cheesy) to my paying clients to develop their trust, and earn their business.

Yes, I've been screwed by a few, and expect you will be too.  It doesn't negate the benefits or the life long partnerships you may develop and if I become so insecure about my abilities that I won't give any advice without money upfront - I think I'm likely on the wrong end of the bell curve anyway.


Edit to add :  Blunt and as unattractive as it may sound, photographer is no long an elite membership.  People today can buy a DSLR for under $1K and get some pretty nice looking prints - or more importantly, THEY are happy with them.  And the printing market seems to be growing - more competitive, less revenue.  I see far more shops in my area than even 3 years ago, and prices are coming down.  Same for framing.

In my humble opinion, I don't see a future in this giclee printing market "as is" beyond 3 more years - I think many will not survive the competition ...so if anyone here can make a living at it, and keep making a living at it, they must be really doing something right.  And if you are one of those people, who the hell cares what I think.


« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 07:50:10 PM by Bullfrog » Logged
Peter Le
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 11:01:42 PM »
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It is not my paintings I'm worried about being copied.  I am a professional artist and would be glad to post some images of my work to verify how "good" I am.  As an artist, you either have talent or you don't.  Raw talent can't be taught.  I'm not worried about my copied paintings, which are out there, I have seen a few.

I have in the past taught folks a thing or two and the next thing I know they have set up shop trying to eliminate me from the businesses.  Not only printing, but other areas of business I have been involved in.

On this board I have given advice more than a few times.  This is different, we are all doing the same thing here already.  I'm talking about complete newbies who want nothing more than to learn something quick and set up shop.  I will no longer help anyone around my area to be my direct competitor.

      I am not saying you are not good at what you do. I have no idea....I was talking about an observation I have made many times of people that worry about being copied or teaching something they have learned. Copiers or newbies that set up next to you will never really be a threat.....they will always be a few steps behind. They are not innovators or as you say "have raw talent" or they would not be copying nor setting up next to you trying to do what you are already doing. I use them to keep me moving forward.....they remind me I must keep innovating to keep my creative edge. Plus I meet some very interesting people that pick up the knowledge they can from me and us it to move in their own detection. Sometimes helping me see new directions.
       If we just sit still and try to protect what we know the world is going to pass us by no matter how loud we scream.......
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stamper
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 03:32:43 AM »
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Quote Ken B.

Nobody in this world has ever taught me anything - ever.  Everything I know is from hands on trial and error.

Unquote

You must have at sometime read books, magazine articles, internet sites or manuals. Listened to tv programs, radio etc etc. Oh did I forget ...... other people. It is impossible for you to have learned everything you know without access to the above choices and other sources. Now a little humility on your part might mean if you haven't accessed any of the above sources then you might learn even more. Undecided

Quote

Son, you have no idea.  Just leave it at that.

Unquote

I don't know your age so I won't patronize you with a similar quote. Smiley
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 03:34:33 AM by stamper » Logged

stamper
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 03:39:47 AM »
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"Close-thread" time?


No ..... it is just warming up. Grin
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 08:53:22 AM »
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No ..... it is just warming up. Grin

Don't know who you think you are, but you can go bugger off anytime.  No need to be an arsehole and troll the board - nobody around here wants to put up with the crap spewing from your mouth.

If you are so narrow-minded to take what I said literally, then that's up to you and I don't really care what you think.  I'm positive the regulars on this forum in the printing section know what I mean when I stated nobody ever taught me anything - referring to printing or any other business/career I've ever had.  But if you get your jollies off by thinking I meant I've never read a book to learn anything then you go right ahead, son.

People like you are the reason I refuse to teach anymore.  Think the world owes you something.

Up until now I haven't seen you in the printing forum, so why don't you leave now and go troll elsewhere?  We would all appreciate that.
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stamper
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2013, 10:11:14 AM »
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I think the trolling started with you and your know it all attitude. Angry
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2013, 10:25:59 AM »
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I think the trolling started with you and your know it all attitude. Angry

No, the trolling started when you began flaming.

To be honest, I'm really quite surprised that a 65 year old man such as yourself, Robert Beacon, would show the maturity level of a teenager.  You stated you were just getting warmed up.  You're warming up in the wrong place, Robert!

Now off you go before you get spanked and put to bed  Grin
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stamper
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2013, 10:32:57 AM »
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I am not the only one who has commented on your attitude. Your reading skills aren't very good. The warming up comment was aimed at the thread in general and not at yourself.
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2013, 10:57:12 AM »
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I am not the only one who has commented on your attitude. Your reading skills aren't very good. The warming up comment was aimed at the thread in general and not at yourself.

If you or any other troll doesn't like my attitude then don't read my posts!  If you were to get to know me instead of acting juvenile and flaming you would see I possess great knowledge and I am willing to help out.  Due to past experiences (in other fields) I've experienced jerks who want nothing more than to quickly learn what and how I do things and then set up shop across the road from me.  I've stated I will not help someone become my competitor anymore.  There is a difference between that and helping out online where needed, which I often do, both here and elsewhere on the Internet.  I've met several folks in person from this board, mainly while buying and selling equipment, and I'm confident each one would tell you I'm a pleasure to know and deal with.  What I won't put up with, however, is someone that reads between the lines and wants to act juvenile and giggle about it.  It isn't funny, and at your age you should know better!

Robert, please, go spend more time elsewhere.  Learning Photoshop will greatly enhance your images and will be productive time well spent.  The very first photo I saw of yours I knew immediately you needed help with editing.  I'll be glad to show you how to refine your images which would make them candidates for printing.  I get the sense you are hanging around this forum in the printing section to learn how to get your images on paper.  Just ask nicely without being a dick and you might actually get some help!
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Schewe
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2013, 11:01:07 AM »
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If you are so narrow-minded to take what I said literally, then that's up to you and I don't really care what you think.

Hum...so, you wrote something; "Nobody in this world has ever taught me anything - ever." and you are shocked that somebody is taking you at your word? So, are you now admitting that somebody somewhere DID teach you something or are you clinging to being a 100% self made man?

As far as attitude in this thread, you've shown plenty of 'tude that hasn't been very useful. Perhaps it is you who should consider their words a bit more carefully. You can't really complain when people throw your own words back at ya and expect to be allowed to get down and dirty with zero repercussions.

And believe when I say I seriously doubt I could learn anything from you-not with your attitude-so the question of you teaching anything to anybody is moot.
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2013, 11:06:09 AM »
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Hum...so, you wrote something; "Nobody in this world has ever taught me anything - ever." and you are shocked that somebody is taking you at your word? So, are you now admitting that somebody somewhere DID teach you something or are you clinging to being a 100% self made man?

As far as attitude in this thread, you've shown plenty of 'tude that hasn't been very useful. Perhaps it is you who should consider their words a bit more carefully. You can't really complain when people throw your own words back at ya and expect to be allowed to get down and dirty with zero repercussions.

And believe when I say I seriously doubt I could learn anything from you-not with your attitude-so the question of you teaching anything to anybody is moot.

Sorry, I apologize.  I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to not read between the lines and figure out my statement meant that nobody taught me anything about what I do here.  My sincere apologies for thinking others were bright enough to figure it out.

Mr. Teacher, Jeff Schewe, you my friend could not teach me anything either.  Don't get all hot-headed thinking cause you've wrote a few books and taught a few seminars that you know it all either, bud.  I know a few people who attended your seminars in Toronto and came back and told me all you do is re-write and yap about what anyone in this business already knows.  You are not innovative with your teachings, from what I've been told Smiley
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Schewe
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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2013, 11:11:43 AM »
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I know a few people who attended your seminars in Toronto and came back and told me all you do is re-write and yap about what anyone in this business already knows.  You are not innovative with your teachings, from what I've been told Smiley

Hum...I guess that explains why my books, videos and seminars sell so poorly...I'm not innovative!

I'll work on that, thanks for pointing that out.

I guess this answers the question of whether or not it's stamper or you being the a$$hole, huh?
(did I mention you might want to consider your words more carefully?)
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2013, 11:15:15 AM »
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Hum...I guess that explains why my books, videos and seminars sell so poorly...I'm not innovative!

I'll work on that, thanks for pointing that out.

I guess this answers the question of whether or not it's stamper or you being the a$$hole, huh?
(did I mention you might want to consider your words more carefully?)

Oh go write another e-book and list it on Amazon for pennies!  lol

I was just telling you how it is.  Three friends in the printing field attended your seminars/shows/whatever you'd call it in Toronto.  All 3 said you taught nothing they don't already know and it was a waste of time and money and were quite disappointed with you.  Their words, not mine.  I just laughed and told them for a case of beer I could have taught them the same thing in my studio.
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Schewe
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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2013, 12:00:17 PM »
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Oh go write another e-book and list it on Amazon for pennies!  lol

Oh, my ebooks sell for more than pennies...(The Kindle version is listed at $21.99 on Amazon although I would suggest buying it from Peachpit and getting the PDF version as well as EPOB & MOBI versions as a bundle).

As for what your "friends" said, I couldn't care less (really, I couldn't). But with every post you make, you go further down that hole, don't ya? You may be a big fish in a tiny pond (Guelph, ON right?) but on the bigger stage, you're just a guppy.

If you want to have a bit of cred here (saying stamper's images could be improved by you teaching how to edit was a bit much) you might want to offer a bit more proof than your words since you've pretty much proven your words don't mean too much...just saying, if you think you're hot stuff, prove it (don't just say it). My work is out there (I don't hide behind an anonymous screen name), show us your work and let us be the judge.
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KenBabcock
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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2013, 12:07:18 PM »
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Oh, my ebooks sell for more than pennies...(The Kindle version is listed at $21.99 on Amazon although I would suggest buying it from Peachpit and getting the PDF version as well as EPOB & MOBI versions as a bundle).

As for what your "friends" said, I couldn't care less (really, I couldn't). But with every post you make, you go further down that hole, don't ya? You may be a big fish in a tiny pond (Guelph, ON right?) but on the bigger stage, you're just a guppy.

If you want to have a bit of cred here (saying stamper's images could be improved by you teaching how to edit was a bit much) you might want to offer a bit more proof than your words since you've pretty much proven your words don't mean too much...just saying, if you think you're hot stuff, prove it (don't just say it). My work is out there (I don't hide behind an anonymous screen name), show us your work and let us be the judge.

You can list them for $75 if you want, doesn't mean anyone is buying them! 

So you don't care about those in attendance at your seminars or workshops?  Nice...  I hope Google picks up this thread when someone Googles your name Smiley

I'm not hiding behind an anonymous name, bud.  I've always used my real name here, and yes, I am from GUELPH!  You know how to read posts that I've stated where I live, am I proud of you!  You should visit... nice city!

My work is out there if you search hard enough.  Heck, I've posted it here before. 

I can slide down the pole as you say.  Do I look concerned?  Your credibility has already been tanked.  Name calling (oh that so hurts) and saying you don't care about those who attend your seminars.

Tsk, tsk! 

Now, unlike you I actually have some work I have to complete.  I don't have all day to sit around typing out e-books hoping some poor soul will buy one.
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