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Author Topic: Medal of Deportation  (Read 1503 times)
Vladimirovich
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 10:42:23 AM »
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Things may have changed after terrorist attacks but for the most part a criminal background check was done.

for the most part, really... so what the SSN# that he was using and where did he get it ?

assumed the identify of another woman... a fraudulently enlisted...They didn't even used fraudulent papers.

reread yourself  Cheesy... and whoever allowed to remain in Corps that is US DOD decision... US citizenship and immigration fraud is not.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 10:48:19 AM »
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During their situation the rules were a bit different.

no rules were not different... you have to be at least a legally admitted non immigrant to enlist if US DOD has such a program (and they had recently for a limited number of slots, specific skills)... that guy was not, why do you try to protect the immigration fraud and army recruiters fraud to get a commission ? to peddle a photo  ?

The article from the Village Voice says: "While it’s Army policy to enlist only citizens and legal residents, the service gets more flexible during wartime.

and that is why US DOD had a regulation (see example above) allowing enlisting legally admitted non residents who came here legally using non immigrant visas - that is in addition to citizens/permanent residents and US nationals... at no point in time during "their situation" US DOD was allowing to enlist illegal/undocumented aliens.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 10:54:27 AM »
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Yep, a retired military officer and attorney wrotte this. " About 65,000 such eligible students graduate from U.S. high schools each year, but upon graduation, these young people, who include honor roll students, star athletes and junior ROTC members, hit a wall.

Instead of advancing to college or the military and later repaying the investment that taxpayers made in their education, they live in fear of being discovered by the Department of Homeland Security and deported to their "home" country, even if it is a country they cannot remember and where they have no friends, family or support."



they can advance to college if they want and able... much more people than 65K (you are not saying that 100% of them are "honor roll students, star athletes and junior ROTC members", are you  Cheesy) are legally coming to study in USA legally on F1 student visas each year (300K+ in fact) and then, if they want, they work hard to legally get their permanent residency by finding employers at no taxpayers expense at all and by proving that they are useful in a competition w/ others... and not just because somebody smuggle them across the border.
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amolitor
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 10:55:15 AM »
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This thread is at risk of turning into a political discussion. I suggest taking it to private messages or something, perhaps?
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- Andrew

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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2013, 11:10:01 AM »
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The story is going to air on national television with the Veteran Affairs and the Department of Homeland Security involved, don't you think they would expose a lie before this airs?

so did anybody dared to ask him a simple question on air - where and how did you get your SSN# ? the end of story...

This guy is not the only one, there are hundreds of them all over.  Driven by greed? What do they get? What do you get by serving in Korea, Kosovo or the Persian Gulf other than the satisfaction of serving your country?

this is not his country... if we wants that - come legally, do not break the laws... if the country wants exchange blood for citizenship - look @ France and their Foreign Legion, but "When Rome went out and hired mercenary soldiers, Rome fell." (c) Dwight Eisenhower, 1951...


This from the OC register "Yes, some illegal immigrants have lied to enlist in the military. They're in good company. Like that of U.S. Marine Jack Lucas, who was awarded the Medal of Honor at age 17 after lying about his age to enlist as a 14-year-old. Lying to gain the opportunity to serve and fight for the country you call home is not run-of-the-mill immigration fraud. It should be made clear that those who go this route will be discharged once found out, and will not gain residence or citizenship from lying. If they are successful in joining, they will get the chance to fight for their country--no more and no less."

to use Jack Lucas to justify an immigration fraud is beyond the pale...
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Andres Bonilla
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2013, 11:14:00 AM »
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This thread is at risk of turning into a political discussion. I suggest taking it to private messages or something, perhaps?

Yes it is and the reason of my answer was that I was told I was basically a liar, my comments are not to suggest that I encouraged or share the believe that it is ok to lie in order to enlist the army, I don't even believe these soldiers are complete victims of the system and they have admitted their msitakes. My posts were to Vladimirovich that the situations portrayed DOES happen and it is not a "cheap" attempt and selling a photo.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2013, 11:15:13 AM »
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This thread is at risk of turning into a political discussion. I suggest taking it to private messages or something, perhaps?


look the topic by itself (the very original posting) is a political discussion... and OP is using that to market a photo (because its only value is that it depicts an illegal alien who failed in the process of committing an immigration fraud)... it is very clear... like our politicians are using the issue of illegal aliens just to gain seats... just means to an end
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Andres Bonilla
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2013, 11:18:51 AM »
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so did anybody dared to ask him a simple question on air - where and how did you get your SSN# ? the end of story...

this is not his country... if we wants that - come legally, do not break the laws... if the country wants exchange blood for citizenship - look @ France and their Foreign Legion, but "When Rome went out and hired mercenary soldiers, Rome fell." (c) Dwight Eisenhower, 1951...


 

I am sure if you ask someone who has lived most of his live here this is their country.
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Andres Bonilla
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2013, 11:41:15 AM »
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look the topic by itself (the very original posting) is a political discussion... and OP is using that to market a photo (because its only value is that it depicts an illegal alien who failed in the process of committing an immigration fraud)... it is very clear... like our politicians are using the issue of illegal aliens just to gain seats... just means to an end
And my benefit from post this photo is? I need to market this photo because......? The only reason I originally answer your post was because basically you stated the photo was a sham. If you or anybody else believes that he deserves to be where he is, you are completely in your right. It is a democratic forum, just like any other in the Internet. Your political views are not of my concern really, actually I welcome your POV on my photo.....but don't call me a liar. My posts were to show you that many undocumented immigrants have enlisted and have been deported for some reason. How they managed to enlist with all the provisions to make sure that only legally able young men and women do it, I don't know because each case is different.
How many of these young Latino recruits are illegal immigrants? “Nobody knows,” says Flavia Jimenez, an immigration policy analyst at the National Council of La Raza. “But what we do know is that recruiters may not be up to speed on everybody’s legal status. … We also know that a significant number of [illegals] have died in Iraq.” The recruitment of illegal immigrants is particularly intense in Los Angeles, where 75 percent of the high school students are Latino. “A lot of our students are undocumented,” says Arlene Inouye, a teacher at Garfield High School in East Los Angeles, “and it’s common knowledge that recruiters offer green cards.” Inouye is the coordinator and founder of the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools (CAMS), a counter-recruitment organization that educates teenagers about deceptive recruiting practices. “The practice is pretty widespread all over the nation,” she says, “especially in California and Texas. … The recruiters tell them, ‘you’ll be helping your family.’ “

I am not saying that it is ok to enlist in the army without proper documentation but I am saying is that their story is real and your assumption that is all fake is wrong.
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michael
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2013, 12:39:43 PM »
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This is a fascinating photograph and an interesting and important story.

Please terminate all name calling and accusations.

Michael
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nemo295
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2013, 01:37:27 PM »
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OK, politics aside, I do like the photograph.

But I have to say that it kind of has the feel of a diorama in a wax museum and the man in it doesn't look entirely real to me.

I'm sure it's just the lighting.
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Andres Bonilla
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2013, 09:23:45 AM »
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This is a fascinating photograph and an interesting and important story.

Please terminate all name calling and accusations.

Michael


Thank you! I will post more photos of the series.
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Andres Bonilla
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2013, 09:26:00 AM »
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OK, politics aside, I do like the photograph.

But I have to say that it kind of has the feel of a diorama in a wax museum and the man in it doesn't look entirely real to me.

I'm sure it's just the lighting.

Thank Doug! That is interesting, it was very dark with a few light bulbs in the bathroom and kitchen. Would you have used more fill to open up the shadows?
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nemo295
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2013, 04:55:47 PM »
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Thank Doug! That is interesting, it was very dark with a few light bulbs in the bathroom and kitchen. Would you have used more fill to open up the shadows?

The whole thing looks like a set to me, not like someone's home. The more I look at the scene the more artificial it seems. The uniform, the folded flag and the discharge certificate on the side table, the picture of JFK, the Airborne banner on the wall, the pictures of soldiers on the table in front of him. And then there's the way he's looking blankly off camera. It all looks staged to make a "statement" and IMO it's laying it on a bit thick.

As far as the lights, I'm not sure what I'd do. But it looks stagey and overly dramatic to me and the way he's sitting is odd. He looks like he's in an underground bunker planning a battle campaign. I think I'd connect to the guy and his story better if the scene and lighting were more naturalistic. Having him looking at the camera might help too.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 05:01:35 PM by Doug Frost » Logged
Andres Bonilla
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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2013, 10:35:22 PM »
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The whole thing looks like a set to me, not like someone's home. The more I look at the scene the more artificial it seems. The uniform, the folded flag and the discharge certificate on the side table, the picture of JFK, the Airborne banner on the wall, the pictures of soldiers on the table in front of him. And then there's the way he's looking blankly off camera. It all looks staged to make a "statement" and IMO it's laying it on a bit thick.

As far as the lights, I'm not sure what I'd do. But it looks stagey and overly dramatic to me and the way he's sitting is odd. He looks like he's in an underground bunker planning a battle campaign. I think I'd connect to the guy and his story better if the scene and lighting were more naturalistic. Having him looking at the camera might help too.

Doug thansk for your reply! Wow I guess this is the case where reality exceeds filmaking, I am sure a production designer would have a tough time recreating these guys place. To be honest with you I missed the discharge certificate and I still don't see it. Actually this was the second location we chose to do the interview; the first one was Fabian's room, another vet, but his was plastered with airborne photos and a few were ripped. My reporter thought it was self serving and the torn photos too much of a dramatic statement. You have to realize this is a 2 bedroom place were 5 guys live, 5 histories crammed in there. The JFK photo belongs to Barrios the oldest one, the flag belongs to Jerry but to the right, Fabian had a photo of president Obama, to me that would create a totally different discussion, so instead of moving it which is a capital sin in the eyes of the field producer I framed it out. Now the stare had two elements both technical and subjective; technical because even though I was shooting 1600 ASA, during the interview he was gesturing and I kept on getting him blurred. I do not mind blurred hands but his face was blurred, so I waited until he paused for a bit, this came not when he talked about the deportation but when he talked about the mother of his children, the who told him about the consequences of the drugs, the one who told him to marry her and he never did.The subjective aspect was that in thelong interview he also told us funny stories from the army and in my mind, having him smiling and laughing did not go with the essence of the story. We did not tell him ok, now be sad, look ahead, I rather waited and snapped the photos when in my eye they were right. I have few including one he dropped his head but that one looked too much to me. Talking about the uniforms, they have them in the bathroom hanging there and I love my video shot of the doorway framing the uniforms, the news director thouhgt they looked staged, we explained him that they used the steam to get the wrinkle out, that shot was edited out.  The place was full of things I wanted to shoot, like the big branch they used as a Christmas tree with all the dog tags hanging, we shooted in January so those were edited out. The lighting is all my call, it was at dusk and I used the bare bulbs in the kitchen, lamp and bathroom with one low wattage tungsten light with a rungun diffusion. That was it. I had plenty of lights in the truck but again, this was documentary style and a hair light or a background light with a pattern would habe been out of place. This was as naturalistic and less intrusive as I could.
I hope I managed to explain my choices understanding that no 2 photogs would shot something the same way Smiley       
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nemo295
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2013, 01:03:53 PM »
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Doug thansk for your reply! Wow I guess this is the case where reality exceeds filmaking, I am sure a production designer would have a tough time recreating these guys place. To be honest with you I missed the discharge certificate and I still don't see it.

It looks like there are actually two Honorable Discharge certificates, immediately to the right of the JFK photo.

In any case, I understand what you were working with and the choices you made. I can only say what the final product looks like to me. There's no question in my mind that technically the picture is quite well done. I guess it comes down to deciding between recording a scene and revealing the person. I feel in this case the scene overwhelmed the person and we don't get very close to the real him.

I would have brought the camera down to his eye level, gone in a little tighter on him and shot with the lens wide open. By shooting from above him with a deep focus you made him just another element in the scene. I would have let him be the focus with the room in the bokeh behind him so that maybe only the white stars in the folded flag would be barely recognizable to make a subtle point. If i wanted to show his certificates and flags and his other military stuff I would have shot those separately as still lives.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 02:11:02 PM by Doug Frost » Logged
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