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Author Topic: Recommend top rank B&W master printers, and digital silver gelatin vs. inkjet...  (Read 4401 times)
Paul Roark
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2013, 11:45:58 PM »
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Well Aardenburg ID-144 is an Ebony tri-tone that Roark is marketing.  What is the point in testing that?...

I don't sell inks, John.  I design the best I can from all available materials.  I publish my formulas and results so others can use them or not.  MIS Associates/Inksupply.com has picked up some of my formulas and ignored others, often because they use materials from other sellers.

Eboni-6 (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf) is the most neutral printing 100% carbon dilute B&W inkset.  You can have as many positions and dilutions as your printer allows.  One can mix from just the 100% MIS Eboni MK (also available from other sellers) and a generic base, the formula for which I publish.  MIS now also sells this pre-mixed.  A number of professional photographers use these inks in all different size Epson printers because they like the idea of controlling their costs and having B&W prints that are 100% carbon and also near neutral.  If I want more neutral than this, I add some HP gray (mixed from the open source base -- see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf).

The best can be very inexpensive if you know what you're doing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 11:48:07 PM by Paul Roark » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2013, 05:20:38 AM »
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Eboni-6 (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf) is the most neutral printing 100% carbon dilute B&W inkset.    If I want more neutral than this, I add some HP gray (mixed from the open source base -- see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/

Paul, you refer to HP PK (+dilutions) as a source for more neutral I think. The HP MK is warmer than Eboni and has not been used by you AFAIK. I measured that and the Aardenburg grey measurements show that too.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Paul Roark
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2013, 09:44:24 AM »
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Paul, you refer to HP PK (+dilutions) as a source for more neutral I think. The HP MK is warmer than Eboni and has not been used by you AFAIK. I measured that and the Aardenburg grey measurements show that too.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

Ernst, I don't replace the Eboni MK or its dilutions with HP PK dilutions.  Rather I use the HP dilutions as cool toners to pull the mostly Eboni-6 image slightly cooler.  As good as HP Z3200 pigments are, they still fade at about 3 times the rate of the 100% carbon.  So, in my 7800, for example, I have the full 6 positions of Eboni-6 and then I add 2 positions for HP "LK" (30% HP PK) and "LLK" (9% PK).   (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf for more information on this setup.)

I still prefer to use papers that, by their nature, print relatively neutrally with 100% carbon.  If the target image is one that is essentially neutral and one goal is to hold down the color pigment, then starting with a paper that prints relatively neutrally with the raw carbon makes a lot of sense.  The Epson Hot Press Natural is a favorite.  With that paper the 100% carbon image with Eboni-6 has an increase in the Lab B of about 1.5 units.  When such an image is displayed on the wall with an appropriate natural paper white mat board (that is, one that is not brightened) and away from papers with OBAs, the image simply looks like a neutral B&W photo.  Under glass and in normal room lighting, it makes an outstanding display that will be essentially fade free for generations.

I might add that Hahnemuhle's bamboo is also a strong contender.  It seems to react strongly to a little HP put into the mix.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com



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deanwork
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2013, 11:27:10 AM »
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Yes, well good luck with that Ebony stuff staying in suspension in big ink carts.

My point was why was a tri-tone set tested for stability and talked about endlessly if everyone is using a 6 channel set?

Whether it is cheap or not is the least of my concerns. I wouldn't dare go around mixing these various brands of pigments like a bathroom chemist and expect them to be stable in the long run.  I think it is a bad idea and a good way to damage your large format printer heads. Desktop units are one thing, but big printers are a totally different ballgame.





I don't sell inks, John.  I design the best I can from all available materials.  I publish my formulas and results so others can use them or not.  MIS Associates/Inksupply.com has picked up some of my formulas and ignored others, often because they use materials from other sellers.

Eboni-6 (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf) is the most neutral printing 100% carbon dilute B&W inkset.  You can have as many positions and dilutions as your printer allows.  One can mix from just the 100% MIS Eboni MK (also available from other sellers) and a generic base, the formula for which I publish.  MIS now also sells this pre-mixed.  A number of professional photographers use these inks in all different size Epson printers because they like the idea of controlling their costs and having B&W prints that are 100% carbon and also near neutral.  If I want more neutral than this, I add some HP gray (mixed from the open source base -- see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf).

The best can be very inexpensive if you know what you're doing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 11:37:23 AM by deanwork » Logged
Paul Roark
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2013, 12:39:21 PM »
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Yes, well good luck with that Ebony stuff staying in suspension in big ink carts.

My point was why was a tri-tone set tested for stability and talked about endlessly if everyone is using a 6 channel set?

Whether it is cheap or not is the least of my concerns. I wouldn't dare go around mixing these various brands of pigments like a bathroom chemist and expect them to be stable in the long run.  I think it is a bad idea and a good way to damage your large format printer heads. Desktop units are one thing, but big printers are a totally different ballgame.


I do agitate my wide-format Eboni-6 carts, as I did with the third party blended carbon + color B&W inks I've used in wide format printers.  I don't suggest this approach for everyone; I find it no big deal for the image stability confidence I receive from using 100% carbon and agitating.  For desktop printers, this agitation issue drops out.  (By the way, I use a centrifuge to test ink settling.  The HP pigments settle less in the open source dilution base than they do in the OEM base.  All of the pigments we use settle.)

The 1800 MIS "3-MK" setup was very popular for a while.  A printer than can make both a matte color printer as well as the most lightfast B&W made an interesting combination.   Many like the black only look.  With Eboni MK that approach can make a relatively neutral image on many matte papers.  By having the 3 channels of MK, the microbanding problems of a single black only approach were eliminated. For a Shutterbug magazine review of the process see http://www.shutterbug.com/content/new-bw-inkjet-option-using-epson-r800-or-r1800-bw-100-percent-carbon-mis-ink .


As a medium format B&W film shooter, I personally liked a smoother printer, which is why I use Eboni-6 as my base carbon image.  I assume that Eboni-6 is currently the most widely sold MIS 100% carbon inkset, mostly for the Epson 1400/1430.  That printer is what many think is the best and most flexible platform for dedicated B&W printers who want to stay at the 13" level.  The Eboni dilutions can be used in virtually any Epson printer, but the user needs to be able to profile B&W, which is rather easy with QTR, both the rip and Create ICC-RGB.

Dedicated B&W lends itself to a rather open source approach to printing.  I suspect many of us are former wet darkroom printers who enjoy the more hands-on approach to our medium.  We have some excellent materials and workflows available to us to choose from.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/






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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2013, 01:52:19 PM »
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Paul,

My comment on HP PK and MK was only to inform people that they should not expect the MK to be cooler or more neutral than Eboni is. It is not. The HP PK etc range is cooler, the MK warmer than Eboni.

I am aware of your use of the different papers and inks.

Ernst, op de lei getypt.

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Ligament
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2014, 02:06:16 PM »
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Hi All,

Its been some time since I posed this question and am wondering if there are any updated recommendations. I personally am very happy with Tyler Boley but am interested in exploring options as always. thanks!
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