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Author Topic: Profiles for Image Prograf 6100 - better to let printer manage colours or PS  (Read 2014 times)
Bullfrog
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« on: February 14, 2013, 07:21:36 PM »
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I have a Dell LCD monitor which is relatively new, 24 " wide, but doesn't have a lot of sophistication in terms of calibration options.  (uses contrast and brightness)

I calibrate with Syder 3 (its windows). 

I have CS5 on my main desktop where I create my images.

I copy the finished image to a tiff file on a flash drive and print it use another laptop which has the canon imageprograf software installed on it and that laptop has CS4. 

I downloaded the CS4 Plug-in from Canon USA website.

I typically set up my prints to let the printer manage colour, but I recently printed a wildlife print and while the image results did match the monitor - in both PS (I have CS4 and CS5 ) I wasn't entirely happy with the results.  It is not bad, but it is a tad dull, or greyish.

So, I tried the same print using the profiles that came with Canon printer .  Now the image looks very warm - almost orangey (its a lion) and its too surreal looking.

My questions: 

Should I set my camera (a Canon 7D) to Adobe RGB instead of current setting of sRGB?  If I do that, will the printer recognize a different colour space based on individual tiff fie (assuming I set the printer to manage colour and not PS)

Should I upgrade my callibration software (*Im thinking Syder 4 - assuming its not more than $400 CDN or thereabouts) or with this quality of monitor, will it really matter.

Finally, Do people recommend using the printer to decide colour - or using PS?  (I'm not yet invested in the process of creating my own profiles, and if that is the answer, I'm lost)

Thanks for any opinons.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 07:37:17 PM »
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My questions: 

Should I set my camera (a Canon 7D) to Adobe RGB instead of current setting of sRGB?  If I do that, will the printer recognize a different colour space based on individual tiff fie (assuming I set the printer to manage colour and not PS)

Should I upgrade my callibration software (*Im thinking Syder 4 - assuming its not more than $400 CDN or thereabouts) or with this quality of monitor, will it really matter.

Finally, Do people recommend using the printer to decide colour - or using PS?  (I'm not yet invested in the process of creating my own profiles, and if that is the answer, I'm lost)

Yes but that only matters if you capture JPEG. Has zero bearing on the raw data itself.
Yes if budge permits (get an EyeOne Display-2)
No, use Application Manages Color using the proper output profile assuming you have one. [/li][/list]
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Andrew Rodney
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Bullfrog
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2013, 07:49:09 PM »
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    Yes but that only matters if you capture JPEG. Has zero bearing on the raw data itself.
    Yes if budge permits (get an EyeOne Display-2)
    No, use Application Manages Color using the proper output profile assuming you have one. [/li][/list]

    Thanks.
    To respond:
    1.  I always use Raw.
    2.  When I first investigated ( a few years ago) I looked at Eyeone Display-2 and it was not compatible to windows.  Maybe that has changed - but it was the reason I got Syper 3.
    3.  Edit : I just walked down and checked - the printer allows you to choose "Photoshop manages colors" in which case you choose from a list of profiles (I chose Heavyweight Fine art) OR - you allow printer to manage colours and it defaults to Canon SRGB v1.31

    To summarize:

    I use Canon's own profiles and canon's own paper (Enhanced Velvet for these) on Canon's printer because I wanted to keep it simple - but the meta data in canon's early release printers is not perfect and its a bit of a guess.

    Example:  
    The name of Canon's paper is Enhanced Velvet
    The name of the media in the printer dialog box when I load the roll is Fine Art Textured
    The name of the profile is (I think) either Heavyweight Fine Art or Fine Art - I tried both profiles and they came out the same (orange hue)

    To restate:  When I let Photoshop manage colours using the above profile (heavyweight Fine art) - its orange.  When I let the printer default to sRGB - it matches the monitor.

    « Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 07:58:34 PM by Bullfrog » Logged
    Scott Martin
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    « Reply #3 on: February 14, 2013, 09:11:00 PM »
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    To restate:  When I let Photoshop manage colours using the above profile (heavyweight Fine art) - its orange.  When I let the printer default to sRGB - it matches the monitor.

    Well either your on-board printer calibration is off, your display lighting is terrible, or Canon's profile isn't as good as a custom profile would be. With an excellent custom profile you'll get optimal results that will certainly look better than 'printer manages color'.

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    Bullfrog
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    « Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 09:21:11 PM »
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    Well either your on-board printer calibration is off, your display lighting is terrible, or Canon's profile isn't as good as a custom profile would be. With an excellent custom profile you'll get optimal results that will certainly look better than 'printer manages color'.



    I have solux bulbs so its not display lighting.  

    I suspect its my monitor setting and calibration because when I view the  final tiff image in Canon software (Digitial Photo pro) on the same monitor  it looks great.  When I view the same image in Photoshop CS5 on the same monitor - it looks great IF I set the View Proof colours - Proof set up in Photoshop to Monitor RGB.

    However, the actual print result (when the printer manages colours ) actually corresponds to the Monitor in PS CS5 IF I change the proof colour set up function in CS5 to Internet RGB.


    I will muck around recalibrating the monitor using a different setting in the Dell monitor to see if I can get the results - because I agree, it would seem to make sense that the profile should yield the best results.

    Thanks for your input.
    « Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:23:02 PM by Bullfrog » Logged
    Scott Martin
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    « Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 09:25:33 PM »
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    Don't forget the calibration procedure on the 6100. If it's off, the profile is no good. Lots of poeple never run the calibration procedure because they don't know about it and the printer doesn't prompt you to run it (which is a mistake on Canon's part I think).

    And don't forget to experiment with custom profiles. Without one you really can't trust what you're getting, IMO. You're certainly not getting the most out of your printer without one. Calibrate first, then profile...
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    Bullfrog
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    « Reply #6 on: February 15, 2013, 06:11:19 AM »
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    Thanks - I will calibrate the printer this weekend - I've been away and have not used it in some time so I'm sure it is long overdue.

    My Dell Monitor has the following settings:  (Called Preset Modes):
    Standard
    Multimedia
    Game
    Warm
    Cool
    Adobe RBG
    SRGB

    When I bought it I tried it set with Adobe RGB and everything came out pink!  

    So, after experimenting back then, (I cannot recall if I tried sRGB)  I have it set to "standard".  

    When I view the image in CS4 OR cs5 on the monitor with the "standard" preset mode, and using "Proof colours" setting of "Internet RGB (sRGB) " in PHotosop - AND letting the printer manage colour which defaults to Canon sRGB v1.31  - it comes out very very close - to my eye, perfect.  

    And thinking more on it - I'm wondering if there is anything wrong with that. 

    As an aside, the red hues are the colours I have the most problem replicating on this Canon printer and I'm not sure how much of that is my skill, my monitor - or computer design.

    Anyway, I appreciate the tips on calibration and will at minimum recalibrate this weekend, 

    I have a landscape with pinkish red tones that I want to print so it will be a good test.
    « Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 06:44:27 AM by Bullfrog » Logged
    Scott Martin
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    « Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 07:52:30 AM »
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    When I view the image in CS4 OR cs5 on the monitor with the "standard" preset mode, and using "Proof colours" setting of "Internet RGB (sRGB) " in PHotosop - AND letting the printer manage colour which defaults to Canon sRGB v1.31  - it comes out very very close - to my eye, perfect.  

    And thinking more on it - I'm wondering if there is anything wrong with that.

    That Toyota you're driving is very practical and works very well - better than all the cars you've driven inthe past. But once you drive a Ferrari, you'll be blown away... A custom profile will be your Ferrari but there's nothing 'wrong' with the Toyota.
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    digitaldog
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    « Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 09:12:21 AM »
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    To restate:  When I let Photoshop manage colours using the above profile (heavyweight Fine art) - its orange.  When I let the printer default to sRGB - it matches the monitor.

    I want to fully agree with what was written since I last posted! If the color is off, either the display is way off and/or the profile is wrong/bad. Start with a reference image and print using Application (Photoshop) manages color and examine the output. If it looks good, then your display (and your original test doc's) are off. You can find a reference image to use here:

    http://digitaldog.net/files/Printer%20Test%20file.jpg
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    Andrew Rodney
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    Bullfrog
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    « Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 04:05:50 PM »
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    That Toyota you're driving is very practical and works very well - better than all the cars you've driven inthe past. But once you drive a Ferrari, you'll be blown away... A custom profile will be your Ferrari but there's nothing 'wrong' with the Toyota.

    I was afraid you would say that. 
     Cry

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    Bullfrog
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    « Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 04:10:10 PM »
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    I want to fully agree with what was written since I last posted! If the color is off, either the display is way off and/or the profile is wrong/bad. Start with a reference image and print using Application (Photoshop) manages color and examine the output. If it looks good, then your display (and your original test doc's) are off. You can find a reference image to use here:

    http://digitaldog.net/files/Printer%20Test%20file.jpg

    Thank you.  I will print it on the Enhanced Velvet using the same profile I used for my test "orange lion" and since the paper is not bright white (like the Jpeg) I'm assuming it may not look exactly the same..?

    However, hopefully it will direct me to the problem

    If it look good, its the monitor that is not calibrated properly - if it looks bad - it is the profile that is not calibrated properly  - is that correct?


    I will update when I"ve done it.
    Thanks again - started reading some of your articles on your website which are very good,  but I realize I have a lifetime of learning
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    Bullfrog
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    « Reply #11 on: February 15, 2013, 06:28:40 PM »
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    Using the same profile I used to print the "orange" lion, I printed the test image on enhanced velvet and looking at the print out with my solux bulb and comparing it to the screen shot in CS5 - it does not completely match either proof set-up option (internet rGB or Monitor RGB) 


    Internet RGB for example is profoundly darker on screen (the girls sweater) than the print which is bright pink on the paer.

    I will calibrate printer and try again.

    I am thinking my monitor is way off and will try calibrating it now to a different preset.

    Thanks
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    Scott Martin
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    « Reply #12 on: February 16, 2013, 10:14:30 AM »
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    Using the same profile I used to print the "orange" lion, I printed the test image on enhanced velvet and looking at the print out with my solux bulb and comparing it to the screen shot in CS5 - it does not completely match either proof set-up option (internet rGB or Monitor RGB

    Of course not. :-] You're seeing the classic problems with a workflow that's not color managed.
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    Bullfrog
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    « Reply #13 on: February 16, 2013, 11:13:44 AM »
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    Of course not. :-] You're seeing the classic problems with a workflow that's not color managed.

    Thanks for posting. 

    I know my workflow is not colour managed, because I have an orange lion :0).  What I don't know, is exactly how to go about fixing it.   Others here have been very kind in providing some tips which I have really benefitted from.

    I'm looking into upgrading my calibration software for my monitor and I'm going to recalibrate the printer.

    And last night, I recalibrated the monitor again, this time with the srBG preset.  It still doesn't match the test image provided by digital dog.

    I"m not prepared to buy a new monitor at this stage (budget) , so that isn't a consideration.  I'm not up to making a custom profile (yet) because I'm in information overload.

    However, one (stupid) question I do have which maybe you could help with is:

    - how do I know if the test image I printed on paper (provided by Digital Dog) is correct or if the monitor is correct and the test image is wrong?

    For example If the square is green on the test image and blue on my monitor (in CS5) - how do I know which one is correct?

    Or is the point simply to make sure they both match? 

    My other concerns are related to software - for example, I use CS5 to create my image, but print (on a different computer) with CS4.  I'm thinking I will intall CS5 on the printing computer and then download the plug-in from Canon .

    I went into the Printer Dialog last night and in the advanced settings for colour see some options which I am not sure matter and am researching those too. 

    So, yeah, I have all the classical symptoms of an unmanaged workflow,  and my thanks in advance for any help.


     Smiley
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    Scott Martin
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    « Reply #14 on: February 16, 2013, 12:17:11 PM »
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    How do I know if the test image I printed on paper (provided by Digital Dog) is correct or if the monitor is correct and the test image is wrong?

    That's the problem - you don't have anything you can trust. If you could get a color managed 'reference print' you've have a starting point to compare other things to. FWIW, I too have color and BW evaluation images at http://www.on-sight.com/downloads/ Digital Pro Lab www.digitalprolab.com will give you a free print of my evaluation image in their welcome kit.

    I'm not up to making a custom profile (yet) because I'm in information overload.

    Ironically, a really good custom profile would 'lock down' your printing procedure, eliminate guesswork and help avoid information overload. Seeing images different ways on unmanaged devices is information overload. Color managing your workflow allows you to say "OK, I've done that. Now I know what to expect and now I can focus my attention back on my work." Do this color management stuff so you can put it behind you.
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    Bullfrog
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    « Reply #15 on: February 16, 2013, 12:35:11 PM »
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    That's the problem - you don't have anything you can trust. If you could get a color managed 'reference print' you've have a starting point to compare other things to. FWIW, I too have color and BW evaluation images at http://www.on-sight.com/downloads/ Digital Pro Lab www.digitalprolab.com will give you a free print of my evaluation image in their welcome kit.

    Ironically, a really good custom profile would 'lock down' your printing procedure, eliminate guesswork and help avoid information overload. Seeing images different ways on unmanaged devices is information overload. Color managing your workflow allows you to say "OK, I've done that. Now I know what to expect and now I can focus my attention back on my work." Do this color management stuff so you can put it behind you.

    Thank you.  This is helpful - I'm an analyst by trade and I am capable of solving complex logic, but not when its circular.  So, yes, I will ask for a free print of your evaluation image because right now, I'm just spinning my wheels.


    If I understand your second paragraph correctly, I think we agree the first stage is to perform root cause analysis - and that means having your sample test print.
    I will still calibrate my printer since it needs it (I was away for several months last year in my paying job and the printer has been mostly idle) but I will hold off on more purchases of software.

    When I have a reference point - then as you point out, the decisions on what to do become more clear.

    This is exactly the kind of information and help I needed and I appreciate your patience with my request.
    Thanks
     Cheesy
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