Advice need it for a financial stucture of project.

[menandar]

Hi guys,

I've got a client who wants me to cover a project for their client who wants to create a illustrated (with photographs) book for their clients to represent and show the services they'll be offering. Currently I'm writing the story board and the concepts of the images that we'll, eventually, be creating. For the creating of the images I probably need to travel to locations abroad and organising my own sets, as the product is very specific and unique they want the same about the photographs. So this is something completely new for me and I'm not sure what price/financial structure may work well for me... I don't think that a scheme like hourly rates will fit into this assignment. So far all they did was to ask for a flat rate fee (for my job on the story board) but in case they ask me the same for the rest of the project I'll be confuse what to say if they don't point out any specific outline for the cost of the project. And this is quite important for me as it's seems to be a big project.
Please any advices and help are appreciated.

Thanks.

[Yelhsa]

.. but in case they ask me the same for the rest of the project I'll be confuse what to say if they don't point out any specific outline for the cost of the project.
Please any advices and help are appreciated.

For me - since the images have not yet been created & the actual use of those images is still somewhat unknown - then the starting point when negotiating the fee for the use of my images, would be my B.U.R.

Because you are simply talking about a 'Licence fee' here, for the use of your images - which you are about to create for them to use as agreed.

[menandar]

Thanks Yelhsa, the Ashley Morrison blog is very helpful. Although I mentioned that the imagoes are for a book, the book actually won't be sold it will be given to certain group of people who, potentially, may be a clients.  I also forgot to ask if you know any resources were can be found copyrights/License forms.

Thanks.
Nikolay.

[Yelhsa]

..if you know any resources were can be found copyrights/License forms.

Legal & Business Forms available to the public.

Plus you can see a slightly modified version of their Licence to use document here, which is what I use.

[menandar]

Hi Yelhsa,

I just finished reading your blog post about how the BUR structure works and I find it to be very useful and convenient financial scheme from which the photographers can benefit really well.
But as usual there are also some questions  that it seems unavoidable person to ask when is coming across something new, at least for me, like this.
1. Have you had a situation were your customer has worked, previously, with another photographers and when you start revealing the way your quote system work they decline your services as pointing out that the services of photographers they use before were more convenient for them ( price wise, not quality ). I'm thinking of this scenario because I doubt that everyone out there in the industry uses the same quote system, which will be good as some trend can be established officially within the industry of how every one should charge, and at the same time most of the customers have more or less previous experiences of dealing with this matters and they can compare and chose what will be better for them as a deal.
2. This one may sound a bit silly but I presume is easier when the lighting and equipment is been hired to determine/calculate the BUR as you know how much you spend for it on that particular assignment, but how do you approach this issue if you own the equipment used for the job.

Thanks.
Nikolay.

[Yelhsa]

1. Have you had a situation were your customer has worked, previously, with another photographers and when you start revealing the way your quote system work they decline your services as pointing out that the services of photographers they use before were more convenient for them ( price wise, not quality ). I'm thinking of this scenario because I doubt that everyone out there in the industry uses the same quote system, which will be good as some trend can be established officially within the industry of how every one should charge, and at the same time most of the customers have more or less previous experiences of dealing with this matters and they can compare and chose what will be better for them as a deal.

Yes Nikolay - usually their very first question will be: What's your day rate ?
To which I would reply: Are you calling because you would like me to produce some images for you to use, for some reason or other ?

Because I can't imagine 'my day rate' being of much use to them at all !!

So if they say they are just wanting to hire someone for a few hours, to take some pictures for them - then they don't really need me. However, if they say they are wanting me to produce some images, and then provide them with those images for them to use, then the first thing we need to talking about are the 4 main things that are important to them.

Because that's what the fee will be based on - and since there are more than 100 different ways to shoot any subject - then first things first.
So this is how I work - if they are wanting me to produce some images for them to use - rather than just someone to take some pictures for them to use if they want to.

2. This one may sound a bit silly but I presume is easier when the lighting and equipment is been hired to determine/calculate the BUR as you know how much you spend for it on that particular assignment, but how do you approach this issue if you own the equipment used for the job.

Well, since the images have not yet been produced, then you are really just working-out what it would cost you to produce 'some images' here - that would, for example, be good enough for standard or normal use i.e. your basic production costs.

Because that's your starting point when it comes to negotiating the fee, before you know what your actual budget is going to be - to produce 'the images' that they are going to need, to meet their usage requirements.

So there is your basic costs that need to be covered - no matter what - and then there is possibly some additional costs that you may need to take into account, should they require you to provide them with more than just some basic pictures.  
Hence the +% part, which is there to help you move up a gear, to meet their additional usage requirements.
Because at the end of the day, it's the amount they are prepared to spend and/or your budget, that will ultimately determine what you can afford to do or even think of doing here.

So first things first - because there are more than 100 different ways to shoot any subject - and you haven't even started to take any pictures yet.

[Rob C]

On the somewhat doubtful basis that producing a book is much like producing a calendar, this is what I used to do with calendars produced for specific clients.

1.  Have a meeting to discuss, make notes and then prepare a summary of what the client really wants from me. Clients don't always appreciate exactly what's involved in a production.

2.  Once I know what's wanted, I would cost out everything that I could imagine would be required in terms of travel, hotels, models, materials, design time, artwork, proofs, printer's costs and delivery.

3.  Once that was wrapped up and nothing further coud be forseen, I added a percentage to the overall figure, that percentage making up my creative input reward. I never detailed my input in terms of day rates, hourly rates or anything like that at all. Whatever the total production cost worked out to be, it was a simple matter to add on a percentage that I felt rewarded me perfecty well.

4.  When presenting the final quotation, I took care to detail the spec. of the product in every way that was possible. The clients were not interested in my earnings: they simply wanted to know what it was going to cost them for the product that they wanted. The bottom line ruled. When you go to the shops to buy a sofa, do you ask how much the designer received? It's exactly the same thing, and only photographer insecurity makes us want to worry about the details of our rewards.

Good luck - and don't undercut yourself: bad business is always bad business; all it sets is a precedent.

Rob C

[Sareesh Sudhakaran]

... I never detailed my input in terms of day rates, hourly rates or anything like that at all. Whatever the total production cost worked out to be, it was a simple matter to add on a percentage that I felt rewarded me perfecty well.

4.  When presenting the final quotation, I took care to detail the spec. of the product in every way that was possible. The clients were not interested in my earnings: they simply wanted to know what it was going to cost them for the product that they wanted. The bottom line ruled. When you go to the shops to buy a sofa, do you ask how much the designer received? It's exactly the same thing, and only photographer insecurity makes us want to worry about the details of our rewards....

Rob C

Rob, not to sidetrack the thread, but what would you say if someone asks you what your day rate is? Without ticking the client off, that is.

[Rob C]

Rob, not to sidetrack the thread, but what would you say if someone asks you what your day rate is? Without ticking the client off, that is.

To tell you the truth, I was never, as far as I remember, asked that question.

When I did advertising work it was left open; nobody was going to be silly and ruin their chance of repeat work by getting greedy, though I was told of a guy who offered to shoot fashion without a model fee: his girlfriend was a model I sometimes used. I was told the story by the client he propositioned; no, he didn't get the client.

In the case of one fashion store, we worked out a price-per-garment scenario, where whatever they were hoping to advertise was easily calculated in their budgeting. It used to be common to produce a set of about eight images for what were known as television 'cassettes' which were, in essence, short runs of stills of each garment or combination thereof.

The problem with the concept of hourly or daily rates was, for me, that time wasn't really a governing factor in the minds of clients. They usually wanted a single picture for an ad. or a series for a brochure or something of that nature. Very often, given the time-scale, it was a matter of juggling my time and doing stuff in bits and pieces. In effect, I guess that what I was doing was working out what I imagined the value of the shot to be within the general scheme of the client's project, and pricing accordingly.

However, calendars were something special, I do admit, and my `percentage' system was the only way that I could figure out that made both parties comfortable.

Whether any of this would have been viable were I anything but self-employed, I very much doubt! But I never, ever wanted to have to employ (or find work!) for anybody else at all; the only other person involved apart from models was my wife, and I talked her into coming along on calendars almost as soon as the budgets got big enough - she was also a legal partner in our business, so that helped a lot.

Maybe I just looked honest and/or innocent?

Rob C

[Sareesh Sudhakaran]

Thanks, Rob!

However, calendars were something special, I do admit, and my `percentage' system was the only way that I could figure out that made both parties comfortable.

You've hit upon something that I've been asking around, and am still struggling with. Finding my percentage (after expenses, taxes, lifestyle and business expenses).

Whether any of this would have been viable were I anything but self-employed, I very much doubt! But I never, ever wanted to have to employ (or find work!) for anybody else at all; the only other person involved apart from models was my wife, and I talked her into coming along on calendars almost as soon as the budgets got big enough - she was also a legal partner in our business, so that helped a lot.

Maybe I just looked honest and/or innocent?

Rob C

I'm going your route. Any pitfalls on tagging the missus along on a job?

From where I'm at, your answers and opinions have always sounded honest. Thank you!

[Rob C]

Thanks, Rob!

You've hit upon something that I've been asking around, and am still struggling with. Finding my percentage (after expenses, taxes, lifestyle and business expenses).

I'm going your route. Any pitfalls on tagging the missus along on a job?From where I'm at, your answers and opinions have always sounded honest. Thank you!

Firstly, thanks for your take on my ramblings; greatly appreciated! With no business axes left to grind, why not try to help?

Pitfalls? One, that I remember.

We had been working in Dublin for/with a guy who, by the end of a long, internationally spread out shoot, hated my guts. And I his.

My bro’n’lo was getting married in the afternoon in Glasgow, Scotland, and we had to get there from Ireland that afternoon or miss it, with all the diplomatic, family spin-off from that. As the taxi stopped at the airport, my wife got out in a hurry with myself pushing rapidly behind.

As a consequence, I stepped onto the back of her shoe. At that moment, and for maybe ten minutes, divorce from both myself and my business was what she then wanted, more than anything else in the world. I had never seen her so venemous before or ever after, poor girl. I, of course, was distraught.

The wedding? We arrived just as the meal had ended, so we had some sandwiches… at least I was spared hearing the speeches.

But, the advantages (of the wife, not of missing the wedding) were huge: nothing finer than travelling the world with someone you love; sort of cool to be removed from the diplomatic quandry of how much attention to pay the model if you are both alone together, day and night for a week or two… best of all, when it’s all over there’s someone with whom to share the finer memories of your lives. Business? Yes, very helpful in her case, because she was well-educated, spoke very nicely with precious little accent other than a softish touch of Scotland to cut the clinical and, importantly, she grew up in a household where her Dad ran a successful surveying business and did a lot of entertaining – she knew from a child how to treat ‘clients’.

Obviously, I’m all for stable relationships!

;-)

Rob C

[Sareesh Sudhakaran]

Obviously, I’m all for stable relationships!

;-)

Rob C

Above all else! Can't afford to rock the boat to save a buck there. Thanks a lot for the advice. Appreciate it.

Hope the original poster doesn't mind this 'mini-hijack'. My apologies.