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Author Topic: empty foot paths  (Read 1989 times)
Rocco Penny
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« on: February 19, 2013, 07:26:55 AM »
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Respectfully submitted as a tool for understanding,  Ohlone tip makers were masters of their domain.  Using only materials no more manufactured than manipulated,  the arrow tip maker that carefully chipped this rock to the thickness of a dime was pretty good at it.
I found this under the swing I was pushing Boy on.  Just laying there.
Pretty rare to find intact artifacts from the ohlone of this area and this masterpiece will find a home alongside so many other repatriated pieces in the care of a tribal elder.
Hopefully it will fill 3rd and 4rth graders with the awe it fills Boy and I with.
Dismantling the bad set up piece by piece.
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Rob C
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 07:57:10 AM »
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Rocco, have you messed with a crime scene?

Rob C
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 08:43:02 AM »
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Quote from: Rob C on Today at 05:57:10 AM
Rocco, have you messed with a crime scene?

Rob C
I feel so,
probably between 50 and 200 Ohlone persons lived around this village.
Coming and going as far as one walks, collecting grasses and plants, catching all manner of animals except I believe dogs/coyote/wolf/vulture/raptors, these people were phenomenal.   These are the people you hear of preparing acorn by leaching the tannin and grinding the flour in mortars using pestles.
These are the people that had an entire NATION named for them yet receive no federal recognition for benefit and relief.
These are the same people who TODAY, through struggle and adversity fight to retain language and culture beyond cliche.
Bears are gone, the golden bear forever.  State flag symbol here is extinct.
Missions, ranchos, then wetos, there was a bounty on Ohlone scalps, paid 10 times more for the entire head.
Gold miners and yahoos, shit-
crime scene?
So probably Tribal Leader _____ said to his audience something like "so many have been killed already, we gave them food, we gave them shelter, they use our land and animals, killing as they go, caring no more for we people than for an animal on hoof, what would any of you say? shall we go to the devils and beg for our food, or live free and die?"
"No people, we must go to them, live through this horror, immobile as an ocean in our right thinking"
Or as likely, panic ensued and the surrender came much more ignominiously as we see in our current society.
 I think now what if any of us faced these choices?
Ummm they do in Palestine.....
oh shoot I let that slip-
bad set up is a bad set up
And this is the best we can do?
That's what-
In USA you are a fighter or a victim- there are few other choices.
In the case of these people described as "very fine" and "exceedingly generous" by the first party of Europeans to meet them there was no choice but to surrender.
The Spanish colonials resorted to kidnap among other worse atrocities to gather an entire region's people into little more than armed camps and slavery.
So there was this french dude comes to the California Capitol, at that time Monterey, in 1770's comments on how the mission natives snarled and fought like dogs when thrown some bones from a carcass that fed this french cat and his asshole hosts.
These were the Spanish clergy.
Reduced the people that had initially welcomed and fed their spanish visitors to starved half crazed madmen(and women) all in a period of around 10 or so years.
Then there was a little relief in that if you were a young man in California in the rancho period you might pass off as a mexican and get work etcv.
Then the white guys-
MANNNNNN
so if you don't know, we wiped out an entire nation and founded a country on genocide.
Yep that's us Americans.
BOOM and down goes the man.
BOOM and there goes another woman holding a baby-
BOOM BOOM BOOM
a cave full of terrified and pleading faces\
all dead
all by us
AMERICANS
and now today
BOOM BOOM
 4.5 million dead in our war of terror?
OH well
like whack a mole
keeps people in their heads and allows the unfettered mining of our very souls
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Rob C
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 11:53:09 AM »
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Rocco, I don't know what to say - I was only making a light joke - I thought! CSI Miami? I just couldn't remember the name of the ginger cat who stands sideways and takes off his shades. Get's well paid for doing that... maybe having to listen to the blonde with the high-pitched screech means he deserves it?

I rather fancy the beautifully browned Ms. Buonavista (?) or something like that. Can't get the show now - the signals been screwed; I think they use a different satellite mechanism or something - it breaks up.

Rob C
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 06:14:22 PM »
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Haven't watched tv in years

In Ohlone legends there is life in everything-
the evidence of spirit and creator in a simple stone, feather, painting, song, tree- well a spirit could be anything-
the concern for staying on the right side of evil and being the facilitator of a right outcome was part of their life.
Dances and ceremonies along with inter tribal affairs and intrigue would certainly have been a huge part of the upcoming season.  We know from archaeological evidence that theirs was a highly evolved and smooth functioning society.
A sign of great wealth was to give away as much as you could-
Trading was only done after a big party where the traders would enjoy a great feast and dances with songs and if things were right,
I've seen it,
magic.
Had to have a charm around your neck always,
hmmm
I have found some of those charmstones and they forced their way out of my hands to where they belong.
Just like this arrow tip will.
Many 3rd and 4th graders will hear of the people that made this arrowhead, some will even get a vague glimpse of that magic I mentioned.
Danged spirits could inhabit anything-
even a rock...
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Rob C
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2013, 04:06:45 AM »
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Well, experience and age have both taught me that the ease with which youth mocks the unseen is simply lack of thinking and understanding.

I have also concluded that science is just scratching at surfaces. In fact, the more that's revealed (or thought to have been revealed) the more questions come to mind. It seems to me that if Man ever reaches absolute understanding of either his own nature or that of the world, it will coincide with the time he ceases to exist, there no longer being any point. At that moment he will have become part with the Gods.

Rob C
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Dale Villeponteaux
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 06:43:19 AM »
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The title reminds me of a phrase I read, attributed to Vietnamese in referring to  Vietnamese war casualties, "Empty footprints."

Dale
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A modest man, with much to be modest about
Rocco Penny
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2013, 07:21:59 AM »
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The title reminds me of a phrase I read, attributed to Vietnamese in referring to  Vietnamese war casualties, "Empty footprints."

Dale

I think the tribal chair is tired of my sort of negativeness regarding genocide.
What happened is too horrible to forget.
Just like in Vietnam.
Worse.
In Vietnam we lost and they got on with their lives.
Here, we won and used the first people to rape, murder, kidnap, remember the bataan death march?
How bout that with women and children as half or more of the marchers?
Well, the past is ugly, the present is ugly with at least a few of us saying NO!
Enough death dealing,
enough war and poverty,
enough hegemony and economic terrorism.
I've never been as embarrassed as when those rednecks start chanting USA!USA!USA!
USA for what!
Power?
Death?
How about spending some of those trillions on people not prisons?
How about funding welfare and health care?
Shoot,
it is a conspiracy.
A conspiracy to build and maintain a middle class myth,
built on the backs of those least able to defend themselves.
It was then,
it is now.
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2013, 07:38:24 AM »
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uh, but mostly
the title is about how I feel walking in Ohlone territory
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Rob C
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2013, 09:16:03 AM »
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“How about spending some of those trillions on people not prisons?How about funding welfare and health care?Shoot,it is a conspiracy.A conspiracy to build and maintain a middle class myth,built on the backs of those least able to defend themselves.It was then,it is now.

Rocco”




That’s a bit steep and even simplistic.

There is no middle-class myth: those within it always knew it to be something that took a lot of personal effort to retain that standing, and even more difficult (in the UK at least) was class mobility. Moving up a class is far more than a matter of having or not having money. You can be broke and still remain upper class, but if you lose your money, then your middle class status vanishes with the Mercedes and the repo man.

It’s about background, and yes, a certain amount of money; your various clubs and the invitations that you get. Perthshire, Scotland has a huge raft of top dogs and estates, of whom I have know several courtesy my mother who, living out there in the semi-sticks, got to know quite a few as friends. Most notable seemed to be the lack of swanky wheels, the almost total lack of, and indifference to quality clothing but a great affinity and natural love for the land and its customs. It can be quite surprising going into a huge house and discovering entire rooms draped in dust sheets and few heaters switched on.

As for building on the backs of those least able to defend themselves, that is almost certainly true of past eras and I don’t think I could name a society that didn’t follow the route of conquer and plunder: it’s how people were and lived. It created empires all over the world. But, claims that empire was inevitably and entirely evil is a general misapprehension. I lived in India during the period just prior to Independence and left some years after that, and I can assure you that a general hatred towards the white Brits (ooooh, that word!”). wasn’t what I or the family experienced. I will never forget the day we left our old home there to travel across the country to Bombay and the ship back to Britain: tears on the staff side and our own were flowing from a mutual sense of loss. I could write you a book about the Brit contribution and post-Independence legacy from my personal experiences there, but I can assure you that many have already been written by those who have never set foot in India other than on holiday, so why bother? Ignorance and politics make far more interesting authors.

Funding health care is a huge problem for those states that offer the service. It’s a bottomless pit that can never be satisfied, and the more liberal any state becomes then the more demands the state receives. We have people who go to see a doctor because they have a cold!

 In fact, it doesn’t end with health care – all of the social services on offer become attractions to those who have contributed zero to their funding. If you think about the British experience, we appear to have queues of would-be immigrants living in camps in France, waiting to smuggle themselves across the twenty-or so miles of English Channel. Why do they do this? They have escaped their countries of origin, already find themselves in the European Union, but that’s not enough: if they make it across that narrow stretch of water they find a nirvana of freebies that the rest of Europe has no damned intention of supplying. In short, a country creates its own people-problems. Strange; if we Brits were such terrible taskmasters, so bigoted etc., why would all these hordes attempt to come join us?

As for spending trillions: for whatever reasons, we find ourselves in deep financial poo poo. In some countries, they hold demonstrations against ‘austerity’ and the paying off of debt. Some politicians even support the idea of borrowing more. Great idea: you owe a hundred bucks you can’t repay; what to do? Simple: borrow another hundred! Oy vey, even I could have thought of that!

;-)

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 12:52:21 PM by Rob C » Logged

Rocco Penny
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 06:42:37 PM »
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Pissed that everyone wants healthcare and housing?
No not me, spend every available ounce of energy turning the tide from self destruction sounds better-
don't launch 1 aircraft carrier and spend the $ on dental care for everyone-
not just we so called rich countries,
but
everyone,
yeah those 4 billion Chinese better keep eating mostly vegetarian
seriously doom and destruction,
planetary and locally,
cameras everywhere,
crooked cops as the rule,
turning the offensive power of military inward to spend that $$
buddy this is just the beginning,
soon enough there will be a caste system having the POOR people as the victims and the RICH people ultimately as judge jury and executioner of rest of everyone
OH wait, I just described the world
OK
I'm just 1
but
I'm 1
Right,-
"even a broken clock is right twice a day"
People hate me making fun, but I'm telling you, it's really too late to call ourselves anything other than predatory.
In deed, manner, and ideal.
Like one of those hyenas or lionesses you see relentless in their pursuit.
We'll either prevail or ruin the world.
That is if you see what we're doing now as benign.
5% per year contraction in wealth worldwide until we decide we can take care of everyone.
Watch how fast it'll happen if some of those fat cats might lose some of what they already have amassed at the expense of the rest of us.
I know many will argue they want it this way.
Well,
I'm 1
that asks is this the best we can do?
I'm not making that far a stretch to talk about Iraq or a few other things to put the historical deeds in line with the current ones.
I'll shut up about it now,
but thanks for the time it took to write Rob and everyone.
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SunnyUK
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 08:10:58 AM »
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In fact, it doesn’t end with health care – all of the social services on offer become attractions to those who have contributed zero to their funding. If you think about the British experience, we appear to have queues of would-be immigrants living in camps in France, waiting to smuggle themselves across the twenty-or so miles of English Channel. Why do they do this? They have escaped their countries of origin, already find themselves in the European Union, but that’s not enough: if they make it across that narrow stretch of water they find a nirvana of freebies that the rest of Europe has no damned intention of supplying. In short, a country creates its own people-problems. Strange; if we Brits were such terrible taskmasters, so bigoted etc., why would all these hordes attempt to come join us?

Oh cry me a river, puhlease!

I grew up in Denmark, part of Scandinavia that invented the idea of a modern welfare society, and have been living in England (sorry, Britain) the last 15 years. The British "nirvana of freebies" are NOTHING compared to what's on offer in Scandinavia. 

We in "the west" are incredibly rich compared to the people who wants to immigrate to "our" countries. We moan about only having one car or maybe having to forego the annual skiing holiday or having to downsize to a house with only two toilets, when immigrants come here to escape death, starvation, torture, etc. We should be utterly ashamed of ourselves when we pretend that we can't afford to help our fellow human beings!
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Rob C
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 12:13:33 PM »
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1.   Oh cry me a river, puhlease!

2.   I grew up in Denmark, part of Scandinavia that invented the idea of a modern welfare society, and have been living in England (sorry, Britain) the last 15 years. The British "nirvana of freebies" are NOTHING compared to what's on offer in Scandinavia.  

We in "the west" are incredibly rich compared to the people who wants to immigrate to "our" countries. We moan about only having one car or maybe having to forego the annual skiing holiday or having to downsize to a house with only two toilets, when immigrants come here to escape death, starvation, torture, etc. We should be utterly ashamed of ourselves when we pretend that we can't afford to help our fellow human beings!




1.  As ever, I’d love to help you out, but I’m not Julie London.

2.  I wonder why you felt compelled to leave your social paradise?

If we in the ‘west’, as you put it, are ’incredbly rich’, then what you should be preaching isn’t open frontiers, but the little idea that charity might actually begin at home. If Denmark is so disposed to sharing its version of heaven to all commers, then I imagine that it must feel absolutely devastated that these people want to head into London instead.

We have millions of our own folks without work; single-parent familes by the zillion and indigenous poverty to rival most other countries; we have overweight people (presumably in that state because they can’t afford decent food) currently building up a medical catastrophe due in a few years; overcrowded prisons, and yet you have the nerve to think we should throw open the doors to people who don’t find France, Spain, Italy sufficiently ‘rich’ enough for their dreams, despite travelling through these countries en route to the Channel?

I wonder how old you are, what experience you have had of earning your living by your own efforts, how much tax and social security you pay and what you think your pension will be worth when you get around to coilecting one. Or perhaps you were thinking of donating it to the huddled masses…

Yeah, right.

Rob C
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SunnyUK
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 01:44:28 PM »
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2.  I wonder why you felt compelled to leave your social paradise?

If we in the ‘west’, as you put it, are ’incredbly rich’, then what you should be preaching isn’t open frontiers, but the little idea that charity might actually begin at home. If Denmark is so disposed to sharing its version of heaven to all commers, then I imagine that it must feel absolutely devastated that these people want to head into London instead.

We have millions of our own folks without work; single-parent familes by the zillion and indigenous poverty to rival most other countries; we have overweight people (presumably in that state because they can’t afford decent food) currently building up a medical catastrophe due in a few years; overcrowded prisons, and yet you have the nerve to think we should throw open the doors to people who don’t find France, Spain, Italy sufficiently ‘rich’ enough for their dreams, despite travelling through these countries en route to the Channel?

I wonder how old you are, what experience you have had of earning your living by your own efforts, how much tax and social security you pay and what you think your pension will be worth when you get around to coilecting one. Or perhaps you were thinking of donating it to the huddled masses…

Yeah, right.

Rob C

Yes. I've got the nerve to say I think we here in the UK can afford to do our bit for those less well off than we are. Nobody starves here unless it is their own choice. Nobody has to sleep without a roof over their head, unless it's their own choice. Nobody here has to fear the secret police or local war-lords rounding them up in the middle of the night and "disappearing" them. Our "problems" are luxury problems compared to what a large percentage of the world's population has to contend with.

You've got the wrong end of the stick, Rob. Immigration is not "huddled masses" coming to take our women and molest our cows. They are human beings who contribute to society. As a nation, we become socially, culturally and financially richer by not pulling up the drawbridge and shutting our borders.

Your tone sounds like the past-their-prime, elderly, self-righteous British lower middle class who are bitter over no longer ruling the sea and having an empire.  Or maybe that's just the normal tone in a neo con ex-pat society enjoying the EU benefit of being able to get their pension while enjoying the Mediterranean sunshine.

As for me - since you ask, I'm 44, I've been living in UK the last 15 years and been in full time employment every day of that period. According to The Guardian I'm in the 90+ percentile for income, so you can rest assured that I have paid my fair part of income tax and NI. I felt compelled to leave what you call my "social paradise" because UK Plc in the late 90's couldn't fill all their IT jobs with British born people and as a result was offering a competitive wage to well educated people.

We still can't, and we still do. That tells far more about the education policy of this nation, than it does about people coming here to work!
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 04:46:07 PM »
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Beautifully said and thank you!


Pointing out the comparisons between countries I'd like to know why there is a conspiracy to gut schools, fund prisons, limit access to higher education, thwart unions, use military force and force in general,  build a surveillance state,


IN general,
why do we have to make the world out to be so dangerous,
then in response ramp up defenses,
then in response, make it hard to pee in a parking lot, then to add insult to injury,
when finally a bunch of fpolks get together to say enough,
the police state beats them mercilessly and in many cases cause serious and permanent injury.
So it ain't over by a longshot.
Cause they got away with it before doesn't mean they'll keep getting away with it.
Injustice is injustice.
Perpetrated now or 75 years ago really there's no distinction beyond what we'll each do in the face of injustice.
So really,
ask a kid about unjust situations and see for yourself...
Always stick up for the persecuted until they are given rewards for not siding with the outsider
in their 2nd grade.
Or daddy calls a landed immigrant a ______
Or you learn through playing that you just don't want to be on the wrong side of the equation
So you get this peculiar situation that portrays winners and losers.
Not just social retards and cool kids, but lasting and final estimations of what life is...
There should be more words for the best things in life,
so that when faced with the choices of inclusion or poverty we'd always choose right.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2013, 10:28:30 PM »
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... Nobody here has to fear the secret police or local war-lords rounding them up in the middle of the night and "disappearing" them...

Could it be that the Britain and other "rich" nations do not have to fear "secret police and local warlords" today precisely because the stood up to them throughout history and defeated them, at great cost of lives, not running away from them?
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SunnyUK
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 03:31:15 AM »
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Could it be that the Britain and other "rich" nations do not have to fear "secret police and local warlords" today precisely because the stood up to them throughout history and defeated them, at great cost of lives, not running away from them?

It certainly could be. But blaming the victim is well past its political correctness sell-by date. See also "she wouldn't have been raped if she didn't wear a sexy dress and walked home alone".
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Rob C
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2013, 04:41:57 AM »
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SunnyUK


”Your tone sounds like the past-their-prime, elderly, self-righteous British lower middle class who are bitter over no longer ruling the sea and having an empire.  Or maybe that's just the normal tone in a neo con ex-pat society enjoying the EU benefit of being able to get their pension while enjoying the Mediterranean sunshine”

Get your facts right: getting a pension in Spain, paid by Britain, is by virtue of having contributed towards a British one all my working life. It has nothing to do with the EU. I actually contributed towards social security in both countries for a while. Hmmm… are you suggesting that I should not be allowed to go to another country and be a nett importer of every penny I spend here?  Maybe you are: I should only be permitted to travel if I’m destitute and dependent on the charity of another country, then? I must say, your stated opinion of us conservative Brits also makes me wonder how you can bear to live amongst us at all. Oh, I forgot: you belong in the top earnings bracket, so it's your privilege to look down on us lowers; now I get it. How rapidy you have assimilated the ways of your adopted land!

“According to The Guardian I'm in the 90+ percentile for income, so you can rest assured that I have paid my fair part of income tax and NI. I felt compelled to leave what you call my "social paradise" because UK Plc in the late 90's couldn't fill all their IT jobs with British born people and as a result was offering a competitive wage to well educated people.”

Consider yourself fortunate; the remaining percentage of lower income-earners must love you. It escapes me how your position can be comparable to that of broke, uneducated non-English speakers trying to smuggle themselves into the UK. Somehow, your sentence echoes in my head with what you wrote about the “elderly, self-righteous British lower middle class…” I wonder in which “class” you are placing yourself – your salary description might be providing a clue… Britain has always welcomed those who can be of benefit; its the others who are the problem and always will be.

I wonder why you didn’t feel obliged to go away to Africa, parts of central or the southern Americas or such countries to exercise your trade, salve your social conscience and help all those people at risk; so much more valuable a task than living at the top of the earnings heap in tight olde England, no?

Yes, I am old and you are not. Being old or young has seldom been a reliable measure of common sense. However, being old does provide more opportunity for observing how things work out in life. What I have observed is that when you take something that works well enough and then overload its capacity to function well, you end up by destroying it.

Rob C

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SunnyUK
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2013, 05:31:06 AM »
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Rob,

You questioned whether I've ever had to work to pay for my own living, tax, etc, so I replied and explained that I have. If you don't want to hear the answer, you shouldn't ask the question.

Your replies to seem to be far more about my personal circumstances than about the issue we initially disagreed on: Whether or not UK can afford immigration. I'm not prepared to let this turn into a series of personal attacks and snide remarks. So let's just agree to disagree.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2013, 08:31:44 AM »
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It certainly could be. But blaming the victim...

Let's not play this strawman-argument game. True victims have always been recognized and helped via political asylum concept. What Rob is talking about are hordes of professional beggars and (gasp!) Gypsis who have seen "secret police" in movies only (but ordinary one often). As well as hordes of those who would simply like the advantage of rich nations' safety net, which to locals looks like a pittance, but to them more like a nirvana.
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