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Author Topic: empty foot paths  (Read 2680 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
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When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2013, 08:36:19 AM »
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... past-their-prime, elderly, self-righteous British lower middle class ...

Really? That species still exists there? Last several times I was in London, I did not see a single Brit, nor heard proper English.
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Slobodan

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SunnyUK
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2013, 08:50:34 AM »
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As well as hordes of those who would simply like the advantage of rich nations' safety net, which to locals looks like a pittance, but to them more like a nirvana.

And what's wrong with that? It seems perfectly natural to want to live in a place with a high living standard.

Since these "hordes" of which both you and Rob are talking about often have a better work ethic than the "natives" and do jobs that otherwise wouldn't get done (show me a white, British motor cycle courier in London or a WASP gardener in California), what's the problem?

Safe living standards, fair laws and a reasonably un-corrupt judicial system, schools and universities, etc, are not finite resources. The more people contribute to society, the more of these things we can afford.  It's a win/win situation (and it's how America got great while Britain got poor).
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Rob C
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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2013, 10:44:22 AM »
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Sunny,



ď1.  You questioned whether I've ever had to work to pay for my own living, tax, etc, so I replied and explained that I have. If you don't want to hear the answer, you shouldn't ask the question.

2.  Your replies to seem to be far more about my personal circumstances than about the issue we initially disagreed on: Whether or not UK can afford immigration. I'm not prepared to let this turn into a series of personal attacks and snide remarks. So let's just agree to disagree.Ē


1.  I was thrilled to hear your reply; thatís why I asked the question: to see from where your views come.

2.  On the contrary: once I understood your circumstances, I was able to understand your politcal base. Sometimes, itís all very prediictable, and at others, not.

Regarding snide: wasnít it you making broad, sweeping statements about lower-middle class people, expats living off the EC (you imagined) and so forth?

Yep, I think we may as well just agree to differ Ė thereís no future in anything much else here.


ďSafe living standards, fair laws and a reasonably un-corrupt judicial system, schools and universities, etc, are not finite resources. The more people contribute to society, the more of these things we can afford. Itís a win/win situation (and thatís how America got great while Britain got poor.Ē


And people from poorer countries are going to get these standards at home by running away rather than fighting for what they want?

Contributing to society?  By having a far higher birth rate than the indigenous population? By stretching demands on public housing, education (my kid teaches in Scotland; there are kids in her class who canít speak a word of English, just spending the day sitting in the corner playing with their cellphone. No doubt, thatís her failure you would suggest; maybe she should disadvantage her Scottish kids by spending more class time with the immigrants?). They are unteachable, grow up in a racial cocoon and have no way to survive other than via gang culture because they can contribute nothing to either society: neither their own nor the wider British one. We need to import more, you think, broaden the base?
Those capable of contributing to society were ever welcome, almost everywhere on earth.

And no, Britain got poor by being suckered into empire-guilt, by having industries that were of old expertise, moribund things such as ships, and a left-wing labour ethic that brought trade unions to power at the expense of progress and innovation which were stifled at every attempt. Why do you think we lost a car industry? Because we didnít have the experts? The converse is why Germany became great; importantly, new, state-of-the-art factories were built as part of the Marshall Plan whereas Britain found itself deep in war debt right up until the time of Mrs Thatcher.

Iím afraid you donít know much about life at the great British coalface at all, however long you may have lived in the country.

Perhaps you should have lived along the Clyde, just for kicks. Plenty of dead reality there.

;-)

Rob C

P.S. No idea why this has taken on a new typeface; it doesn't exist as I write.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 10:51:32 AM by Rob C » Logged

Rocco Penny
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2013, 08:37:38 AM »
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This is the work,
this is why we left Recita MaMa

In the 1950's they built public housing in SF that served many war vets and others.
This housing slowly but surely declined until "projects" as we commonly call them here had become a gathering place for those most vulnerable to a system that as soon as house someone in decent public housing with fine educational and employment prospects,
we got instead these seething and downright dangerous public units and a clear path to jail then prison.
We need more housing not less,
more education not less,
and more and better employment not less.
There's always the question of money and if we can't afford to care for everyone,
we can't afford many things that seem to be funded better than ever before.
Jobs and housing,
a real chance to make it from the bottom up.
This will be the future.
Eventually we will decide taking care of people and the planet are more important than profits and unsustainable lifestyles.
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Rob C
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2013, 09:50:59 AM »
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Eventually we will decide taking care of people and the planet are more important than profits and unsustainable lifestyles.



Rocco, that's a dream.

Without profit there is no surplus, and without profit nobody does anything, least of all work for other people. Surplus is where charity and consideration has its base and provides its only chance of taking off. Sneer at the mega-rich if you wish, but don't forget the money that many such people spread around in a variety of charitable ways.

You describe a communist Utopia that sounded good in books (which, to illiustrate something to someone, actually went into profit!) but in reality not a one exists today in the manner described. Even that golden stereotype, Russia, has seen the impossibility of making it work thrust upon it from within; North K. continues along its merry route to total destruction whilst its neighbour blushes in embarrassement at what its one-time protťgť is doing. Cuba? There are more Cubans living in Mallorca than in Cuba. Ask yourself why.

No easy answers work. Save the planet and don't use gasoline? Right, so with what do you power your car? Electricity? That's already stretched and too expensive, so much so that many old folks die every winter in Britain and other leading nations because they are unable to pay the cost; where do you get electricity from unless you are blessed with mountains and high dams - exactly, oil or coal. Today, China acknowledged the existence of 'cancer villages' due to pollution from chemicals of all types.

You expect simple measures like cutting high salaries to producd a positive, working result?

Rob C
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2013, 10:09:39 AM »
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And what's wrong with that? It seems perfectly natural to want to live in a place with a high living standard...

Ok, let's see... I've been out of work (and benefits) for quite some time. You, on the other hand, seem to be doing quite well. How about I move in with you, for room and board and some pocket money? What would possibly be wrong with that? I am sure there is a warm place in your heart (and home) for poor souls like me?
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Slobodan

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Rob C
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2013, 01:42:59 PM »
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Ok, let's see... I've been out of work (and benefits) for quite some time. You, on the other hand, seem to be doing quite well. How about I move in with you, for room and board and some pocket money? What would possibly be wrong with that? I am sure there is a warm place in your heart (and home) for poor souls like me?


Can I come too? My heating bill's enormous because the walls of this building are made of cheap, hollow blocks, and as every Spanish builder knows, it's always summer in Spain! Oh, please? Can I come? My pension's just beeen cut by 10% this week because of the AA1 rating, and a couple of years ago I had to get rid of my nice old hot Escort and buy this tiny wee Fiesta with a diesel engine instead! I promise to buy my own medication because though a Brit (there, I confessed it!), I shall probably have to pay for the first six months of it on my return 'home'. Slobodan, obviously not a Brit by birth, will clearly not be expected to pay anything, so the two of us will come as cheaply as one! Please say you love us! I'll even kiss a baby on the head, if I must!

Rob C
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SunnyUK
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2013, 06:36:27 AM »
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There you go again, Slobodan and Rob, pretending that immigrants are lazy bastards who get everything they need without contributing anything in return.

I don't know what your experiences are, but whenever I pass a building site, the least spoken language seems to be English. When I pop into my local Costa coffee shop, the flags on the barista's name tag always seems to be different from Union Jack. I have yet to see a single white courier in London; they all appear to be immigrants. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford having a cleaning lady two hours each week. Over the years, these have always been immigrants.

Maybe this colours my view. It appears to me that the no-good lazy bastards around here tend to be Essex girls getting knocked up by their boyfriends aged 17 and settling down for a comfortable life in a council flat while never having to do anything but spread their legs every 9 to 10 months. Their boyfriends tend to hang around in the local shopping centre intimidating shoppers and making a menace of themselves. So if we have to find that wonderful outrage somewhere, I'd far rather direct it against them, than against people who's only "crime" is that they are trying to better their life by moving to a country where they can get to do all the jobs that the natives wouldn't dream of touching with a barge pole.

Of course you'd be welcome to move in with me. You would be required to follow the same rules as the rest of the household, which means getting up at 6 in the morning 6 days a week in order to work for 10 to 12 hours. If you're unable to find a well paying job, I will get my good friend who works as a handyman to help you find a role involving good, honest, manual labour. It goes without saying that you pay tax (rent) from the money you make. I live in a two bedroom house, so you would obviously need to share your room.  Still interested?
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Rob C
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 09:53:38 AM »
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There you go again, Slobodan and Rob, pretending that immigrants are lazy bastards who get everything they need without contributing anything in return.

I don't know what your experiences are, but whenever I pass a building site, the least spoken language seems to be English. When I pop into my local Costa coffee shop, the flags on the barista's name tag always seems to be different from Union Jack. I have yet to see a single white courier in London; they all appear to be immigrants. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford having a cleaning lady two hours each week. Over the years, these have always been immigrants.

Maybe this colours my view. It appears to me that the no-good lazy bastards around here tend to be Essex girls getting knocked up by their boyfriends aged 17 and settling down for a comfortable life in a council flat while never having to do anything but spread their legs every 9 to 10 months. Their boyfriends tend to hang around in the local shopping centre intimidating shoppers and making a menace of themselves. So if we have to find that wonderful outrage somewhere, I'd far rather direct it against them, than against people who's only "crime" is that they are trying to better their life by moving to a country where they can get to do all the jobs that the natives wouldn't dream of touching with a barge pole.

Of course you'd be welcome to move in with me. You would be required to follow the same rules as the rest of the household, which means getting up at 6 in the morning 6 days a week in order to work for 10 to 12 hours. If you're unable to find a well paying job, I will get my good friend who works as a handyman to help you find a role involving good, honest, manual labour. It goes without saying that you pay tax (rent) from the money you make. I live in a two bedroom house, so you would obviously need to share your room.  Still interested?



Interested, but not sure about the sleeping arrangements; are you married?

;-)

Rob C
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2013, 11:40:26 AM »
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Wait, Sunny!

Are you saying I would have to work AND pay rent? In which case you would not be providing charity, but engaged in the business of subletting. How quickly you learned the capitalist ways of your new country.

Besides, why can't I be

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... settling down for a comfortable life in a council flat while never having to do anything...?

Are you saying that, for that, I would have to be punished by having a 17-year old girlfriend? Granted, horrible punishment, but I would endure anything for that sweet

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... comfortable life in a council flat while never having to do anything...

As a matter of fact, that is exactly what was happening with certain nationalities from my former country, faking political asylum in Europe. You know, the ones who prefer their children in bulk, closer to dozen than not. Granted, their wives would object to that 17-year old condition, but they would not need it anyway. Multiplying child benefits by twelve, they indeed lived

Quote
... comfortable life in a council flat while never having to do anything...

Now, for the sake of argument, let's say I do accept your cold-blooded capitalist offer and work for your friend, providing "good, honest, manual labour." Wouldn't the flood of guys like me just drive down the price of the said "good, honest, manual labour" that others, before me, have already been providing? To the point that those "good, honest, manual" workers would be driven out of their occupation and ultimately accused of not willing to "touch [those jobs] with a barge pole?"
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 12:28:29 AM by Slobodan Blagojevic » Logged

Slobodan

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Rob C
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2013, 01:47:11 PM »
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Okay, we've collectively done ambiguity; now, lets turn to page 23 and check out Ingratitude, and then let's flip to page 24 and check out Irony.

Ingratitude: being a guest (resident?) and then mocking the romanitc foibles of your host's teenage sons and daughters, especially if they come from Essex.

Irony: being a guest (worker?) and then you, yourself, offering hospitality to destitute foreigners/strangers on the unsolicited behalf of your host.

(This is interesting stuff; it could catch on.)

As long as the matrimonial state of the guest-sub-host(?) remains clouded in mystery, I feel unable either to accept or reject the invitation to cohabit. Could this be a cunning trick to offer false charity whilst knowing the call might never be accepted? Oh the machinations of those stealthy Danes! Willie Shakespeare had something to say on the matter too, if I remember correctly.

My breath is bated (bated, but not too rotten, I hope).

Rob C

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