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Author Topic: First impressions of the Leica M  (Read 3562 times)
markd61
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« on: February 27, 2013, 12:48:05 AM »
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Interesting observations. I am looking forward to a complete review.
The availability of an EVF will dramatically change how many of us think of this camera.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 12:54:31 AM by markd61 » Logged
KLaban
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 03:31:16 AM »
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Quote Sean Reid.
"The M's live view mode, on the other hand, seems (in my mind at least) to be better suited to slower paced work. In fact, it's great for tripod work especially. Given a little time one can open the aperture up, focus very precisely using magnification and focus peaking, stop the lens down and then release the shutter. I loved this mode in the studio."
 
The magnification is restricted to the centre of the image only. I'd find this a real handicap when working from a tripod. I've yet to see focus peaking on any camera that I'd rely on for critical focus.

If the magnified liveview had been scrollable I would have bought into the system. Such a pity.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 03:33:24 AM by KLaban » Logged

KLaban
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 03:43:08 AM »
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I should perhaps add that when I first heard about this issue I was hoping it could be fixed by a firmware update but have since learnt it is a limitation of the sensor.
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OldRoy
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 06:14:19 AM »
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Short of someone giving me one of these cameras as a gift (necessarily with a lens or lenses, given the breathtaking prices) I'm never likely to own or even use one. But reading this, albeit provisional review, the expression "damnation by faint praise" comes to mind. Hedged about as it is with provisos and qualifications, it's hard to imagine why anyone without an existing "investment" in matching lenses would ever contemplate buying a camera that's such a compromise, other than for non-practical motives, given the range of alternatives currently available within the budget required for a Leica M based system..
Roy
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 06:32:15 AM »
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Hi,

I absolutely agree. I have no experience of peaking on Leica but on my Sony it is not usable for exact focusing.

The capability to move the focusing area is essential.

Best regards
Erik

Quote Sean Reid.
"The M's live view mode, on the other hand, seems (in my mind at least) to be better suited to slower paced work. In fact, it's great for tripod work especially. Given a little time one can open the aperture up, focus very precisely using magnification and focus peaking, stop the lens down and then release the shutter. I loved this mode in the studio."
 
The magnification is restricted to the centre of the image only. I'd find this a real handicap when working from a tripod. I've yet to see focus peaking on any camera that I'd rely on for critical focus.

If the magnified liveview had been scrollable I would have bought into the system. Such a pity.

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KLaban
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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 06:44:43 AM »
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Short of someone giving me one of these cameras as a gift (necessarily with a lens or lenses, given the breathtaking prices) I'm never likely to own or even use one. But reading this, albeit provisional review, the expression "damnation by faint praise" comes to mind. Hedged about as it is with provisos and qualifications, it's hard to imagine why anyone without an existing "investment" in matching lenses would ever contemplate buying a camera that's such a compromise, other than for non-practical motives, given the range of alternatives currently available within the budget required for a Leica M based system...

If someone from Leica, or a dealer, or a beta tester, or indeed anyone, could convince me there was a work-around, or I was missing something obvious, or missing something less than obvious, then I'd buy into the system tomorrow - despite having no existing "investment". If anyone reads this and believes they have an answer that would address my concern then I'd love to hear from them either here in this thread, or by PM, or by email to

mailatkeithlaban.co.uk

obviously removing at and replacing with @

TIA
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 07:11:10 AM by KLaban » Logged

markd61
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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 08:35:28 PM »
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I find it surprising that a firmware update could not address some of these issues.

Frankly, I think life is very hard for Leica and the other small scale manufacturers. They get all sorts of grief for their prices and their gear not being as au courant as Nikon or Canon yet they hardly command the resources that the large companies do.

While I am not likely to buy this camera I still admire the progress they have made in their digital M models.

What I really want to see are samples from a production camera.
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Rob C
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 03:17:27 AM »
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I find it surprising that a firmware update could not address some of these issues.

Frankly, I think life is very hard for Leica and the other small scale manufacturers. They get all sorts of grief for their prices and their gear not being as au courant as Nikon or Canon yet they hardly command the resources that the large companies do.

While I am not likely to buy this camera I still admire the progress they have made in their digital M models.

What I really want to see are samples from a production camera.



What's also a little surprising, considering the resources, is that Epson never took their famous rangefinder any further... perhaps they are better at spotting dead ends than some?

Rob C
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JeanMichel
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 09:43:16 AM »
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Hi,
I too think that being able to scroll the magnified live view screen is/would be useful. However, focusing a Leica has alway been done in two ways: focusing with the rangefinder which mean focusing in the centre of the viewfinder since that is the only place where the rf patch is, or zone focusing. So it is: focus  on what you want, and reframe for the shot; or pre-focus and just shoot. So if the LV on the new M only magnifies the centre it is no big deal,, focus and reframe as always.
My 'digital stable' includes a 5D2, a GH2 and an M9. Each has a use. The Canon has proven to be my workhorse for documenting exhibition, photographing artworks and studio work' its LV makes it into a mini view camera and AF plus IS are real boons to my aged eyes and hands, But it is the M9 that I work best with as it is simply a newer model of the M's I've used for the last four decades. And prints do show that images made with my decades old Leica lenses are superior to those made with the Canon or Panasonic lenses.
Jean-Michel

If someone from Leica, or a dealer, or a beta tester, or indeed anyone, could convince me there was a work-around, or I was missing something obvious, or missing something less than obvious, then I'd buy into the system tomorrow - despite having no existing "investment". If anyone reads this and believes they have an answer that would address my concern then I'd love to hear from them either here in this thread, or by PM, or by email to

mailatkeithlaban.co.uk

obviously removing at and replacing with @

TIA
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KLaban
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 10:50:12 AM »
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Not being able to scroll the magnified liveview is a lost opportunity, hell I can even do it on my wife's 300 micro four thirds! I wonder if this limitation was known to Leica at the outset or if it crept up on them and bit them on the ass.

That said I still might bite.
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Rob C
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 11:23:36 AM »
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Not being able to scroll the magnified liveview is a lost opportunity, hell I can even do it on my wife's 300 micro four thirds! I wonder if this limitation was known to Leica at the outset or if it crept up on them and bit them on the ass.

That said I still might bite.




Wouldn't get you the 17mm or 24mm shifter/tilter toys, though!

Maybe you should just get a top Canon body and the 17mm and then decide if that's where you want to expand your expenditure?  You're going to be on a tripod anyway...

Focussing on one thing and then recomposing doesn't work, as you already know - it just approximates, but I can't be bothered to go through all the geometry again for others who haven't figured it out for themselves yet.

I never owned a Leica, even when I was working and it would have been no problem; I was often tempted, but the moment I thought about being deprived of a ground glass, 100% coverage of field of view and split image, or ruled lines...

I can't say for sure, of course, but I figure you would be much the same.

Rob C
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KLaban
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM »
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Wouldn't get you the 17mm or 24mm shifter/tilter toys, though! Maybe you should just get a top Canon body and the 17mm and then decide if that's where you want to expand your expenditure?  You're going to be on a tripod anyway...

Having spent the last week looking at Canon files I can say with confidence it's not at all where I want to expand my expenditure.

Focussing on one thing and then recomposing doesn't work, as you already know - it just approximates, but I can't be bothered to go through all the geometry again for others who haven't figured it out for themselves yet.

Can't remember the last time I focussed on one thing.

I never owned a Leica, even when I was working and it would have been no problem; I was often tempted, but the moment I thought about being deprived of a ground glass, 100% coverage of field of view and split image, or ruled lines...

All liveview is 100% coverage and Leica rangefinder is of course more than 100% coverage. Not seen a camera lately that doesn't have grid lines. Always hated split image.

I can't say for sure, of course, but I figure you would be much the same.

Rob, who are you trying to convince, me or you?
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Rob C
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 02:50:24 PM »
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Having spent the last week looking at Canon files I can say with confidence it's not at all where I want to expand my expenditure.

Can't remember the last time I focussed on one thing.

All liveview is 100% coverage and Leica rangefinder is of course more than 100% coverage. Not seen a camera lately that doesn't have grid lines. Always hated split image.

Rob, who are you trying to convince, me or you?



This, Keith, is Joke of the Month! No way am I looking for another small camera!

;-)

Rob C
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KLaban
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2013, 03:36:51 PM »
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This, Keith, is Joke of the Month! No way am I looking for another small camera!

Rob, you're looking for another large one?

;-)
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AlanG
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2013, 06:24:54 PM »
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Sean Reid writes, "As one reads this and other reports about the M (240) on the web it's worth remembering that various aspects of the camera are not yet finalized. As of this writing (February 23, 2013), camera start-up and other processing/functional times are still being tweaked. Corrections for vignetting and color drift (with various lenses) are not yet finalized. Auto-white balance is still being tweaked. Various little bugs (which have plagued virtually all pre-production cameras I've tested from every company) are also still being sorted out. That said, however, the pre-production M I've been testing is significantly less buggy than some production level cameras I've tested from another company making window finder cameras."

Yet it is my understanding that people have been receiving their cameras. So the firmware must have been "finalized" some time ago in order for cameras to be packaged and shipped.
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Alan Goldstein
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JohnBrew
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2013, 07:26:51 PM »
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Alan, yes, it is true, the camera is now released. Most of the early adopters are picking them up now. I, for one, await the results and possible problems (Leica has not had a single digital M release which was not beset with issues) as I have finally committed to getting one, although I could opt out at any time. I hope they have gotten it right from the start because this new body does promise much for those of us with M lenses and for the first time other manufacturer's lenses.
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AlanG
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2013, 11:09:49 PM »
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Alan, yes, it is true, the camera is now released. Most of the early adopters are picking them up now. I, for one, await the results and possible problems (Leica has not had a single digital M release which was not beset with issues) as I have finally committed to getting one, although I could opt out at any time. I hope they have gotten it right from the start because this new body does promise much for those of us with M lenses and for the first time other manufacturer's lenses.

Yes it looks like it has a lot of new featured and other improvements. (Of course some Leica users see any added feature as bloat.) And I am not knocking the camera. I assume it is ok but I really don't know anything from personal experience. What I guess I don't understand is if reviewers such as Sean Reid were told by Leica that the camera was not finalized or did they just assume so? 
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Alan Goldstein
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KLaban
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2013, 03:08:09 AM »
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There is already a firmware update on day two from release.
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AlanG
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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2013, 12:32:58 PM »
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So now it truly is "finalized."  Wink
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Alan Goldstein
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