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Author Topic: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???  (Read 30657 times)
theguywitha645d
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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2013, 11:44:49 AM »
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The 645D was not designed as a true professional camera, hence to low-ish price point, the lack of usable tethering solution and slow previews on the LCD. It does not mean it is not a good camera but it was not targeted at the professional market.

And the Phase/Mamiya DF series cameras were targeted towards professionals?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin I happy to take the "amateur" model.
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KLaban
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2013, 12:00:54 PM »
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And the Phase/Mamiya DF series cameras were targeted towards professionals?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin I happy to take the "amateur" model.

Hey, you already have it!

Sorry  Embarrassed
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2013, 12:03:22 PM »
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Well things were not looking good even quite a few years ago when competition from 35MM DSLRs was not as strong as it is today.

According to CIPA (of which Mamiya is a memeber) in 2005 only 5,842 medium format cameras were manufactured.
And that included Pentax, Fuji, Mamiya, Contax.

Sales...

2005   7,950 Cameras (over 2,000 of them comming from unsold 2004 stock).
2004 10,507 Cameras
2003 18,006 Cameras

Sales less than halved in two years.

CIPA no longer publishes medium format numbers on it's main website.



 

 

Those numbers go to 2005. They really reflect the fall of medium-format film camera production, which was imploding. Only Mamiya were producing a MFD body at that time. Bronica went bankrupt and lots of medium-format cameras were discontinued.

Hasselblad, Alpa, Arca Swiss, Phase, and Leaf are not members and do not report.

Sorry, you have not really shown anything. Correlation does not equal causation.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2013, 12:17:06 PM »
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Hey, you already have it!

Sorry  Embarrassed

Well, I did read about the feature-loaded, problem-free DF cameras before I decided I need something more amateur. Wink
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2013, 12:31:31 PM »
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Well, I did read about the feature-loaded, problem-free DF cameras before I decided I need something more amateur. Wink

hahahaha
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jerome_m
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2013, 02:00:43 PM »
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I own a D800 and just got a second hand Hasselblad H3D-31. I find the AF of the H3D just as accurate as the live view of the D800 and the H3D to give slightly sharper results as the D800 and much nicer colours. The lenses are also much better. And of course, the H3D-31 is 7 years old and recent MF cameras have higher resolution.  Roll Eyes
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FredBGG
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2013, 02:21:02 PM »
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Fred

Here's the problem. You state MF Sales are in decline as if it is a fact. If you do not know it is a fact (which you don't), then that is a mis-representation. Mis-representation is an obvious sign of manipulating data or impressions to support one's agenda. You have done this again and again - stated declining medium format sales as if it was a fact. You've taken considerable effort to try and prop up your mis-representation by digging through numbers from 8 years ago.

I don't even really want to comment on those numbers, but the fact is, 2 of the companies you mentioned stopped making cameras (effectively went out of business in that sector, or altogether) and never really ever successfully launched a digital version of their medium format product. And the third (Pentax) did not realize a viable digital solution for medium format until 6 years after the numbers you cite. So, citing declining numbers at the point which 35mm digital finally became full frame from 3 of the 4 companies you mention, who were essentially still film-based companies for the most part, tells me that medium format film cameras took a tumble. Wow, there's a news flash.

It still does nothing to backup your claims with anything factual. Medium format film camera production has been in decline ever since the Canon 1DS was released. Yawn.

So I asked you to prove your allegation and you failed. Not surprising.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Actually I was not proving anything, just referring to the numbers and the tendency.
It's funny that you bring up the fact that these numbers were from the days of the first FF 35mm DSLR, so there really was no competition from FF 35mm DSLRs yet.
Now the competition is very strong and budgets overall are lower while MFD prices keep going up in order to stay in business.

I'm not selling cameras so I don't have to prove anything.

What is really funny is that both Steve Hendrix and Doug respond, but cannot or do not want to
supply numbers.

We all know that the technological advances by 35mm DSLR cameras have reached a point where they
exceed the quality needed for commercial photography and have much better productivity while consisting a fraction
of the price. I think it is quite logical to think that any company in the business of selling high priced gear
that has to be a much longer term investment would publish numbers if they were reassuring enough.





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FredBGG
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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2013, 02:23:51 PM »
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Those numbers go to 2005. They really reflect the fall of medium-format film camera production, which was imploding. Only Mamiya were producing a MFD body at that time. Bronica went bankrupt and lots of medium-format cameras were discontinued.

Hasselblad, Alpa, Arca Swiss, Phase, and Leaf are not members and do not report.

Sorry, you have not really shown anything. Correlation does not equal causation.

Phase One cameras and lenses are made by Mamiya. IF they are still reporting numbers as they should being members of Cipa they should be reporting them.

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Marlyn
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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2013, 02:40:54 PM »
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Doug and Steve are too professional to engage in battle with such arguments.   They cannot be fought on logic and fact, as so far, certain posters don't start with either of them (fact or logic).

Stating things as fact, doesn't make them so !.   i.e.  "We all know that the technological advances by 35mm DSLR cameras have reached .. "  Who is WE ?  what sample group did you use, where is the empirical evidence of such grandiose all encompassing statements.   What you are really saying is YOU believe it is so, and some other people you've heard of say it is so, therefore it must be GLOBALLY so, in all markets, for all definitions of 'commercial' etc etc.   Patently not so, otherwise there wouldn't be a market for all types of cameras, commercially.

Sorry, that is up there with "Grass is green,  this bottle is green, therefore this bottle must be made from grass".

Strawman arguments at best:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

And as for the sentiment,  well,  that is up there with 'A Toyota corolla gets you from A to B,  who needs a BMW,  or even an Astin Martin".
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 03:47:21 PM by Marlyn » Logged
Nick-T
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« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2013, 02:41:37 PM »
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What is really funny is that both Steve Hendrix and Doug respond, but cannot or do not want to
supply numbers.


Fred How much do you make a year? Gross and net profit please.

How are your savings looking? Shares investments? Just a total $ will be fine.

Thanks for sharing.

Nick-T
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Marlyn
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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2013, 02:42:13 PM »
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Phase One cameras and lenses are made by Mamiya. IF they are still reporting numbers as they should being members of Cipa they should be reporting them.



Says who ?  Last I checked privately held foreign businesses can do and report (or not report) whatever the hell they want.
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2013, 03:03:46 PM »
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I just heard neither Phase nor Mamiya/Leaf are going to be showing at Focus in Birmingham.
As this ought to be the most important show in the UK I find this quite astonishing.
Hasselblad with the fresh Ventizz money is there.
Any background infos on that ?

Regards
Stefan
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JV
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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2013, 03:19:15 PM »
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We all know that the technological advances by 35mm DSLR cameras have reached a point where they
exceed the quality needed for commercial photography and have much better productivity while consisting a fraction
of the price.

The same can be said about cars and other luxury articles, I don't see that stopping people from buying them...

Once more Fred, where are you going with this?  Why the endless ranting and repetitions? 

Quite frankly, why be such a pain in the b*##...?

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Geoffreyg
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« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2013, 03:29:58 PM »
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I remember that line of logic: "Have you ever been and are you now ...."

There may be a fact lurking in the story, or not, but such reasoning is a real turn off. Truly I (and others probably) beg you to cease and desist. Please. Please.
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Geoff
FredBGG
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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2013, 03:31:14 PM »
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Doug and Steve are too professional to engage in battle with such arguments.  

Then why do they respond at all? Actually I think that they do "engage in battle" , but strangely cannot supply
numbers despite encouraging people to buy MF.
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Marlyn
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2013, 03:58:50 PM »
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Then why do they respond at all? Actually I think that they do "engage in battle" , but strangely cannot supply
numbers despite encouraging people to buy MF.

This continues to crack me up.

"But strangely cannot supply numbers despite encouraging people to buy MF"

I love how this leaps headlong into assumptions, plus seed planting with no facts.

1. "cannot supply numbers".   Todate they havn't,   So this has suddenly become the fact that they 'can't'  despite no evidence to the contrary one way or the other.   Just because someone hasn't done something you want, doesn't in anyway make a vauge assumptions as to their reasons for doing so,  'Fact'.


2. My favorite:  Statement A: "Cannon supply numbers"   Linked with 'despite'  to 'Statement B: "encouraging people to by MF'.

      Classic misdirection, often used by politicians, attempting to link  your point 'A'  with someone else's actions 'B'.   In effect, trying to tie some causal relationship between your point, and their actions, whilst at the same time attempting to make their actions seem 'dubious'  because how can they do B, without providing A.   Even though there is absolutely no linkage demonstrated between the points.

Post Hoc Ergo Proctor Hoc.

Logical Fallacy at its finest.       


Fred. Accept that people have different opinions, desires, needs and wants to your own,  and please, end this barrage of white noise.

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kdphotography
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2013, 04:29:16 PM »
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Phase One didn't become a major shareholder of Mamiya until ~ March 2009.

Not that it matters to those who have an axe to grind or so deeply entrenched in bias to care.

I guess all that matters is that the vision of Mary See continues, and we can keep enjoying those chocolates.

 Wink
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yaya
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2013, 04:36:37 PM »
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I just heard neither Phase nor Mamiya/Leaf are going to be showing at Focus in Birmingham.
As this ought to be the most important show in the UK I find this quite astonishing.
Hasselblad with the fresh Ventizz money is there.
Any background infos on that ?

Regards
Stefan

We're all there

Mamiya Leaf on M10 & N1
Phase One on G20, Q14, G31 & F40
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 04:53:56 PM by yaya » Logged

Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Mamiya Leaf |
e: ysh@leaf-photography.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.mamiyaleaf.com | yaya's blog
Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2013, 05:01:25 PM »
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Hi Yair

I was looking to the Focus Website and couldn´t find you neither were there any hints on the Mamiya/Leaf Website on Events.
So these are dealer booth´s I guess.

Have a good fair ! Would love to be there, but need to write my column and the 3rd part of highend imaging for "DIGIT!".
Also we are preparing the B2............ Smiley

Regards
Stefan
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2013, 05:03:51 PM »
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Could it be that Ferrari is a smaller player in percentage terms in the car market than MF manufacturers in the camera market?
Ferrari may take exception to be labelled moribund.
Perspective correction - not just a photographic term.

Disclaimer: Commercial affiliations - nil.

Tony Jay
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