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Author Topic: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???  (Read 42286 times)
JoeKitchen
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« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2013, 05:29:44 PM »
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I find this whole conversation silly, however it is keeping the loonies out of some of the other forums.  

I just read an article today on Apple, they were described as a bumble bee that should not be able to fly, but does.  Why, who knows.  Their computers doe the same thing, if not less, than any other computer on the market and cost over twice as much.  So why buy?  This is one way of looking at it.  

Or...

They are reliable and what they do, they do very well.  They rarely crash.  They are incredibly well designed and last much longer then their competitors.  That is why I use Apples.  

Do I drive a Ferrari?  Hell no, they are too damn expensive.  Too much money to spend on a device that only gets you from point A to point B.  Not to mention I've found my life companion and do not need the sex appear any more.  Kind of funny, I write this and think the same mind set could be put towards Apple and MF, but in the end I am willing to spend the money for great design in these two markets.  

Not to mention, just like with Ferrari, many more wealthy hobbyists buy MF then professionals.  I spoke to a camera salesman the other day trying to move a used Schneider 35mm.  They got it when a hobbyist came in to buy an IQ180 only to be told that that lens does not work well with that back.  With out even thinking about it, he traded the 35mm in for the new Rodie 32mm.  There you go, some wealthy hobbyist dropped over $40K for something that will make him no money just like car lovers (who dont race professional) drop a quarter mil all the time for a Ferrari. 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 05:40:38 PM by JoeKitchen » Logged

Joe Kitchen
www.josephmkitchen.com

"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
"Try not to be just better than your rivals and contemporaries, try to be better than yourself."  William Faulkner
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2013, 05:52:19 PM »
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Actually I was not proving anything, just referring to the numbers and the tendency.
It's funny that you bring up the fact that these numbers were from the days of the first FF 35mm DSLR, so there really was no competition from FF 35mm DSLRs yet.
Now the competition is very strong and budgets overall are lower while MFD prices keep going up in order to stay in business.

I'm not selling cameras so I don't have to prove anything.

What is really funny is that both Steve Hendrix and Doug respond, but cannot or do not want to
supply numbers.

We all know that the technological advances by 35mm DSLR cameras have reached a point where they
exceed the quality needed for commercial photography and have much better productivity while consisting a fraction
of the price. I think it is quite logical to think that any company in the business of selling high priced gear
that has to be a much longer term investment would publish numbers if they were reassuring enough.








Because you don't sell cameras you can lie or misrepresent? Is that it? That is how you justify your innuendo? It's kind of worse - you don't sell cameras, so have even less first hand knowledge of sales figures, yet continue to state misleading information about them.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
theguywitha645d
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« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2013, 05:54:08 PM »
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Phase One cameras and lenses are made by Mamiya. IF they are still reporting numbers as they should being members of Cipa they should be reporting them.



Should? Do you know CIPA reporting rules? Film cameras are no longer being reported because of volume. CIPA does not report on the MFD equipment from what their web site indicates. They also do not report on microscope cameras which are produced by Olympus and Nikon. But Nikon and Olympus does well with their microscope products, so you cannot infer the MFD is not doing well.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2013, 06:07:10 PM »
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BTW, Mamiya was sold in 2006. It is not the same company that brought you those great cameras like the 7, RB/RZ67, etc (that company makes fishing rods and pachinko ball dispensers). I am not sure about the relationship among them and MAC and Phase. I suspect it is rather complicated. They seem to be suppliers to Phase. It is a very small company (160 employees and $3.5M capital) and I doubt their sales figures are significant where reporting them to CIPA is worthwhile.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 06:16:17 PM by theguywitha645d » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2013, 07:10:14 PM »
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Mamiya-OP the company that used to own the Mamiya Optical sold it getting out of the photography buisness.

Mamiya-OP makes sporting equipment, thin film measuring devices, and electronic Japanese pinball type machines.

It's a publicly traded company and has had a 133% rise in stock value over the last 5 years. 57% in the last year.

It has a market Capitalization of $168 million and $285 million in sales.

It seems Mamiya-OP has done well for itself after selling off it's diminishing camera division.

Kyochera that also got out of the medium format camera business (Contax 645) and focused on miniaturization and electronics is
doing well for itself ....  market capitalization of $ 15 billion and $10 billion in cash reserves. A stable growth cash rich company.
Among other things it has 70% of the ceramics components market.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 07:30:28 PM by FredBGG » Logged
JohnCox123
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« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2013, 07:28:42 PM »
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Mamiya-OP the company that used to own the Mamiya Optical sold it getting out of the photography buisness.

Mamiya-OP makes sporting equipment, thin film measuring devices, and electronic Japanese pinball type machines.

It's a publicly traded company and has had a 133% rise in stock value over the last 5 years. 57% in the last year.

It has a market Capitalization of $168 million and $285 million in sales.

It seems Mamiya-OP has done well for itself after selling off it's diminishing camera division.
Nippon Kogaku sold Nikon to the Mitsubishi Group. Does that mean Nikon is a failing company? Does this matter? I don't think trafficking of businesses determines the financial viability of a market.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2013, 07:31:57 PM »
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You are still making a logical mistake. The medium-format film camera market was a well developed industry that was wiped out when digital came on the scene. Fuji discontinued all their MF camera including your GX680. They only came back with a fairly insignificant folder and wide-angle fixed lens cameras, but nothing like their former selves. Bronica went under taking three SLR models and a rangefinder. Pentax limped along, but both their 67 and 645 camera are gone. Even Mamiya lost some models through the sale. But those are film cameras.

Naturally, when your products cost an order of magnitude more, you don't get the same market size--it is one thing to buy a $2,000 camera and quite another to buy a $20,000 one. But there is no indication that the MFD market is not successful. Pulling out old film camera sales numbers don't mean anything. The Mamiya camera division was always the smallest part of the company and if you fished, you would know that, just as the camera divisions at Minolta and Konica were not very large. Are you saying that APS digital camera market is going down the tubes because Konica Minolta was sold to Sony?

Now, I understand you dislike MFD, but you have not built any kind of case for your argument that MFD is dead or dying. Just like film is still here when the "experts" on LuLa gave it five years back in 2000. And they cited sales figures too--except the MFD market seem to be growing since 2000. I have no idea why the existence of MFD is so personally distasteful to you, but wishing it will go away will not make it do so.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2013, 07:38:43 PM »
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Kyochera that also got out of the medium format camera business (Contax 645) and focused on miniaturization and electronics is
doing well for itself ....  market capitalization of $ 15 billion and $10 billion in cash reserves. A stable growth cash rich company.
Among other things it has 70% of the ceramics components market.

Here again, Kyocera was an electronic company. Its one and only medium-format camera came just as digital came out. The camera division was tiny and Kyocera saw no point in trying to save an already small business. It would be too expensive to turn it into a digital camera company. Especially since camera sales for them must have been tumbling. They had a very tiny share of the MF market, BTW. But here again you are talking about the film camera market, not the MFD market.

But should we put the shoe on the other foot. Medium- and large-format photography is dead? Look at the industry. I bet you can't even buy film. So what do you shoot with?
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JohnCox123
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« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2013, 07:58:02 PM »
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Here again, Kyocera was an electronic company. Its one and only medium-format camera came just as digital came out. The camera division was tiny and Kyocera saw no point in trying to save an already small business. It would be too expensive to turn it into a digital camera company. Especially since camera sales for them must have been tumbling. They had a very tiny share of the MF market, BTW. But here again you are talking about the film camera market, not the MFD market.

But should we put the shoe on the other foot. Medium- and large-format photography is dead? Look at the industry. I bet you can't even buy film. So what do you shoot with?

Some nostalgia on Kyocera, my boss when I was 20 was Chuck Flesher (at one point head of Kyocera north america). They made a lot of nice 35mm SLRs. Of them, I used an RTS II and a Yashica that I cannot recall the name of but I know was manufactured but Cosina(Voigtlander). Chuck advised me against buying a used mamiya because he thought I couldn't afford the lenses, this was 10 years ago (I was 20).
Kyocera made good cameras but I know from several levels that they were slow in getting ideas to fruition (the almost non-existent AF line of SLRs is an example). If things had been structured differently and markets managed not the way they were the Contax 645 AFD would be the best camera out now bar none.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2013, 08:28:41 PM »
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Nippon Kogaku sold Nikon to the Mitsubishi Group. Does that mean Nikon is a failing company? Does this matter? I don't think trafficking of businesses determines the financial viability of a market.

Nikon was always part of the Mitsubishi group of companies.

Quote
Koyata Iwasaki, the son of Yanosuke, took over the presidency from Hisaya in 1916 at the age of 38. Like Hasaya, he had studied abroad and was a graduate of Cambridge University, in the United Kingdom. Koyata led the Mitsubishi organization for nearly three decades and played a pivotal role in shaping the development of Japanese industry.

Under Koyata's stewardship, important Mitsubishi divisions became separately incorporated companies: Mitsubishi Shipbuilding (now part of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries), Mitsubishi Corporation (trading), Mitsubishi Bank, Mitsubishi Mining (now part of Mitsubishi Materials), Mitsubishi Electric, and Mitsubishi Estate. Koyata also oversaw the creation of the companies that now are Nikon, Mitsubishi Trust and Banking, Mitsubishi Oil, Mitsubishi Steel, Mitsubishi Kakoki, Mitsubishi Rayon, and Mitsubishi Chemical.
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JohnCox123
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« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2013, 08:48:43 PM »
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Nikon started out as Nippon Kogaku. It became Nikon when it merged into the Mitsubishi shell. Of course we could split hairs and say Mamiya is really Mamiya Leaf and called Mamiya back when it was owned by Mamiya OP.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 08:58:11 PM by JohnCox123 » Logged
theguywitha645d
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« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2013, 09:02:45 PM »
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Nikon started out as Nippon Kogaku. It became Nikon when it merged into the Mitsubishi shell. Of course we could split hairs and say Mamiya is really Mamiya Leaf and called Mamiya back when it was owned by Mamiya OP.

In 1988? Koyata-san must have been very old then.
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JohnCox123
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« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2013, 09:09:15 PM »
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Your right it became Nikon after the merger.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2013, 09:14:23 PM »
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Sorry, Nippon Kogaku was already under the Mitsubishi holding company by WWII. Folks, camera history has nothing to do with this. You are not going to bolster your positions about the MFD market because of internet searches in Japanese history. LOL
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JohnCox123
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« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2013, 09:21:24 PM »
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Sorry, Nippon Kogaku was already under the Mitsubishi holding company by WWII. Folks, camera history has nothing to do with this. You are not going to bolster your positions about the MFD market because of internet searches in Japanese history. LOL

That's my exact point!
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gerald.d
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« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2013, 09:27:58 PM »
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If, as the dealers here continue to assert (without any evidence) that sales at Phase are booming, I'd love to hear what the excuse is for the farcical situation that their flagship products still don't have a key promoted feature working 2 years after their introduction.

Someone point me to another example of a successful company - in any industry - with the lack of budget to fix something so fundamental. Because a lack of budget is the only viable excuse for USB not to be working on the IQ backs a year ago.

One also has to wonder how good business must be when hard-sell tactics such as pouncing on unrelated threads to promote the products one sells, or unsolicited PM's to forum members to also promote one's business, are necessary.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2013, 09:42:06 PM »
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If, as the dealers here continue to assert (without any evidence) that sales at Phase are booming, I'd love to hear what the excuse is for the farcical situation that their flagship products still don't have a key promoted feature working 2 years after their introduction.

Someone point me to another example of a successful company - in any industry - with the lack of budget to fix something so fundamental. Because a lack of budget is the only viable excuse for USB not to be working on the IQ backs a year ago.

One also has to wonder how good business must be when hard-sell tactics such as pouncing on unrelated threads to promote the products one sells, or unsolicited PM's to forum members to also promote one's business, are necessary.

I know it is very fashionable to bring out frustration you have had and bash companies you don't like. And you are now going to carry that over to Hasselblad, Alpa, Arca Swiss, Pentax, Rollei, and Leica? Well, send your MFD gear back and use 35mm. You seem so dissatisfied.

But that is what a lot of these threads are really about--bashing stuff to make yourselves feel better. Or is this a bullying tactic to get dealers to bend to your will?
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Marlyn
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« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2013, 09:49:17 PM »
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It seems Mamiya-OP has done well for itself after selling off it's diminishing camera division.

Kyochera that also got out of the medium format camera business (Contax 645) and focused on miniaturization and electronics is
doing well for itself ....  market capitalization of $ 15 billion and $10 billion in cash reserves. A stable growth cash rich company.
Among other things it has 70% of the ceramics components market.

Post Hoc Ergo Proctor Hoc.    (After, therefore, Because of it) Logical Falacy strikes again.

They sold there camera business and they are doing well.  Therefore they are doing well because they sold it,  therefore the camera business was bad.
I've still got that bridge for sale. 

Man, I could use you as a case study for business classes.  Keep them coming, this is hilarious.
 
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Marlyn
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« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2013, 09:54:41 PM »
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Because a lack of budget is the only viable excuse for USB not to be working on the IQ backs a year ago.

How's about 'technical challenges',  or 'oops, we made a mistake someplace, now we are trying to fix it',  or any number of engineering problems that I wish they would tell us (but won't). (btw I wish they would fix it also, but I highly doubt it is lack of R&D budget). 

Seriously guys.  If you are going to add 1 + 2 and come up with 9,  at least come up with something other than raw speculation. Even SOME reference to someone that actually might KNOW would be nice.

It is absolutely BAD logic or reasoning  in any shape or form, to infer negative (or positive for that matter) things about a LACK of information. Especially when you have absolutely no idea why that information is not provided. Btw, they never said it was booming, just that sales were up.  I also happen to be annoyed Phase haven't fixed USB 3.   But leaping to conclusions as to the cause? pass.

Regards   Mark

Disclaimer: No vendor affiliation or interest:  Yes I own Medium Format, and DSLR, and Point and Shoot, and 4x5, and well, the list goes own.
              
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 09:58:32 PM by Marlyn » Logged
gerald.d
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« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2013, 09:55:11 PM »
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Lol.

No. I'm very happy with my IQ180. Even more so with my TC, Max, and FPS. I also enjoy - less frequently these days it must be said - my Phase AF and collection of old Mamiya glass. Even my GX680 makes me smile everytime I see it sat on the shelf.

But my personal satisfaction has no bearing on the purported financial performance of Phase One, nor their apparent lack of R&D budget that led them to launch a range of backs that still don't work as advertised.

It's called objectivity.

Regards,

Gerald.
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