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Author Topic: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know  (Read 33699 times)
MrSmith
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« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2013, 11:43:12 AM »
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Will there be a Bently edition? I want sharkskin, engine turned aluminium plates and British racing green.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2013, 11:44:15 AM »
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That direct ipad thing, i could do that 5 years ago with a leaf valeo and palm pad, so i think its logical they use the technology again.. On modern pads ?..

Same idea.

VERY different programming/implementation on both the camera side and the viewing device side.

Main difference to the end user: much faster than the Valeo bluetooth solution.
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« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2013, 11:45:08 AM »
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What would be nice is if we could use capture pilot to rename files.. Handy when shooting packshots in studio ...

As i could stay near my set instead of always rolling around on the chair to see te computer ...

I'll definitely make that suggestion. Alternatively (or in addition), some form of keywording (in addition to the rating/color-tags) could help with this.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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bcooter
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« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2013, 01:12:15 PM »
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Same idea.

VERY different programming/implementation on both the camera side and the viewing device side.

Main difference to the end user: much faster than the Valeo bluetooth solution.

I briefly owned a Valeo before my Aptus came in, great studio camera, really great as it didn't take much power to run it and it was bulletproof.

Used the Ipaq thing on two location gigs.  It took a long time to get it worked out, larger batteries for the Ipaq and Leaf was upgrading the firmware, but once it did work it worked great except the bluetooth signal only went to one ipaq.

Shot one gig on a great loft on Wooster.  Had 11 clients and the room we were shooting in they just couldn't fit (than god), so they went to another room and 9 people huddled around that little Ipaq and watched every frame.

Doug, which leads to a few question on your new backs.

1.  Does the wi-fi signal go to more than one Ipad?  This to me is really important as 1/2 the projects we do have multiple "eyes" that want/need to see.

2.  What is the fps or spf of the 260?   

3.  Can you set color/tone/look on the Ipaq, like in C-1 so the view is a little more customized?

4.  What is availability for other camera platforms.  Usually Contax is last on the list to come out.  In regards to mounts what will be offered.  Obviously DF+ and H, Contax, but any other mounts without adapters?

5. What is the REAL useable ISO?  Keep in mind that I don't mind some noise if it's pretty and shoot my P30+ at 800 iso all the time. Does all the IQ series do as well as the P30+ because the last time I used an Aptus with a Dalsa sensor, I loved the look but it didn't go to 800 as well as the Kodak sensor. 

6.  I know your just getting these in, but how is the realiability.  Stability is first on my list and I have zero time to go back and forth with issues? (This isn't a knock on Phase, because nearly all digital devices seem to need a series of firmware updates to catch some issues.

7.  Will a Leaf version on the wi-fi become available.  I love the reliability of my Phase backs, but recently did a quick test (actually testing LED fresnels) and tested a H4d, a Aptus and a IQ and in my very brief test, like the Leaf interface.   On a side note I thought the DF (not the plus) autofocus was very good.  I know there are some people that didn't think that, so when I tested these cameras, I really tried to trick the DF autofocus with people passing the foreground, soft backlight, walking to camera at a quick pace, etc. and thought the DF worked very well in autofocus.  I did have more difficulty hitting manual focus on the DF and not to hijack a thread, but thought the H4d40 I tested had good manual focus.

8.  Will the IQ backs (the new and the older IQ versions give a black and white preview?  I don't shoot a lot of B+W only projects but when I do it's great to see it in black and white.

9.  This question is going to seem kinda of crazy but for years we've investigated ways to get multiple screen views from one camera.  Let me explain.  I've always wanted to have a custom frame build (kind of like rack mount video/field monitors, that work like this.  Let's say you have 8 monitors (of Ipads).  When you fire the first frame it goes on screen one and holds, frame 2 goes to screen 2 and holds, frame three goes to screen 3 and holds, etc. etc. until frame nine that then refreshes to frame 1 and starts the process again. 

(sorry to go off topic but . . .)

I know this sounds like a dog and pony show (it is) but these is a usefulness of this as clients are always huddling around the tech station when we're shooting saying "can you go back to the previous frame.

Also, regardless of economy, regardless of stripped down production, client's love production like this.  This really takes viewer ease to a different level and is something they can't do at home with their dslr.

If you ever been on a film set, there are multiple viewing monitors all around the set and allows client's ADs to be in one viewing area, the on set art crew can view from a closer to set area, etc.

People on this forum will tell you that the camera or system you use doesn't matter to clients, but today it does, especially when the client comes off a gig where the previous photographer only shot to a powerbook or no tethering at all.  Your not going to ever have them come over and say "wow" I hire you guys because of the camera you use (in fact I'd never want to hear that), but the last few projects we've done have illustrated how the complete view of the production impresses a client.

A few weeks ago we shot a TV/financial celeb, in Bev Hills.  He works 324 days a year and came directly off our set from a network set across the street in a rental location.


I peeked into the Network set and it wasn't as advanced as ours, as we ran three reds, our two phase backs and two people with Canons shooting behind the scenes and some stylized behind the scenes to be inserted into the digital video piece.

The subject actually inserted a line in the script talking about how much production value was in the shoot and I heard the AD tell the client  "this is why budget is important to give you and your subject a first rate production".

A shoot, a month previous was for a book cover.  The most challenging (to put it politely) subject I've ever worked with.  Because of outside forces the publisher became pressed for budget and was looking for ways to cut costs . . . after the shoot.   

They briefly asked if I would trim a somewhat large amount and before I could respond they put the invoice into payment at full price.  When I talked to the AD she said she looked at our estimate and compared it to what we brought on set in regards to production values in equipment and crew and said it wouldn't have been fair to cut our price.

Had we been running a leaner project it would have shown and I bet they would have tried to cut the costs. 

10.   How will the IQ2 impact the prices on the IQ1?   Will there bee a rush of trade ins/ups?

11.   Any word (wink wink) of what the new phase camera will be like.

I vote for a removable prism with a series of finders, high eye point, chimney tube, 90 degree prism.  Also I'd love to see a series of cropping guides (actually black out would be better) so when you go 4:3 to 2:3 you can exactly see the crop. 

Actually I'd love for this to be on a some kind of orientation sensor.  In other words the crop changes if you move the camera from horizontal to vertical.

Every horizontal I shoot is either cropped around 2:3 or 16x9, or 2:1, every vertical I shoot is 4:3.

It would be great if the camera did this.

Another option would be an RZ type of blade system where the back rotates and when it does blades crop out the optical viewfinder so you exactly see the orientation.

I'm not wild about little red lines or etched ground glass (plastic) because under pressure with a revolving back you just forget sometimes.

Also on dslrs that have those crop lines AND all of those little blinking focus points blocking the screen makes composition a little difficult. 

12.  I doubt if this will happen, but what is the chance of a back that mounts to different platforms, like a Hasselblad and a Contax?  I know, I know, but a person can wish.

13.  Is it possible to put my p21+ inside an IQ2?   Just kidding, actually not exactly as I love the speed, the file look of the p21.  I've shot that back so often and worked it so much in post I have it zoned out like I know my favorite pair of shoes.  It's just all automatic to me making that file look like film.

I know, I know nobody is going back in pixels.

Actually I find all this high pixel count talk interesting.

When Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad comes out with more megapixels, I know a lot of photographers that use dslrs that said they don't need more megapixels.  Of course the same photographers flipped when the Nikon came out saying "see, see, this camera has the same megapixels as a medium format back.

Go figure.

Sorry for the long post.

IMO

BC
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2013, 01:29:15 PM »
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And - next question - what about the dark shots ? Can these be switched off now ? PLEASE !!!!! I mean 1 hour exposure and then 1 hour wait and in the middle of it the batteries die ? Come on !


I found out today, seemingly you still have to use the dark exposure. I find this to be a complete waste of time. I mean can someone here please explain their workflow if they take a 1hr exposure and than have to sit there scratching their ass for another hour before another exposure can be captured. It's like you buy a nice car but you have to push it half the journey each time. The camera seems fantastic but why the hell do Phase One re design the sensor and than offer what appears to be a great feature but is unusable for many photographers due to the time required to capture the shot.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 01:56:49 PM by Enda Cavanagh » Logged

sanzari
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« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2013, 02:29:41 PM »
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i am going to be so childish as I had a bad day at Focus in the UK with the total lack of innovation in the camera market. Rubbish from Nikon, nothing from Canon, resin from Fuji, Pentax who, Hassleblad blah blah Sony yep another repeat. Phase were not present so here goes -

1. Holy Dynamic Range Batman - Increased to 13 stops - and given most of these cameras are used in studios why do i need 13 stops as the lighting is totally controlled ? Most of the ones that make it into the field are they working professionals who actually bought the camera ??
2. Long Exposure has Returned with the Phase One IQ260 - brilliant so the ones that get out in the world (most are loaners on test) it appears to take a while to process. the fact it has returned , innovation Huh
3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series - perfect and so I dont need SilverEfex Pro which is leaps ahead of most things for $100, and as I shoot raw why do i need an 80 million pixel jpeg
4. Wireless Viewing, No Computer Needed  - brilliant, except Nikon D800 is unusable with RAW images over the wire. I hope Phase has put in something else to move images faster, but everyone says JPEG only so hmmm
5. Remote Operation of the Camera - i thought this was already there, called assistant please press the button
6. Remote Review and Color Tagging - in the studio takes ages to walk from one end to the other
7. Wireless Works With Any iOS Device - great, at least we may find one fast enough
8. GPS Auto Geotagging - I know where my studio is and actually it spends all its time there, save the innovation and add something like a new camera
9. Wireless Works to TV
10. Sample Files Will be Available Soon - great
11. You Can See One In Person Starting in a Week - brilliant


Well I know it was childish but we need innovation if people are going to announce version 2 products. Phase will be the only MF maker left, they are a great company and likely the others will fold through lack of users or people moving to DSLR as it being good enough.

Please everyone upgrade to Q2, that way as a working photographer who pays for my gear I might one day afford the P65+ or 45+, all these 11 points are huge innovation and a must have set of features, so upgrade come on, the lease will just extend and you will only pay 20% more of the original price of your upgradeable model.

Right childish behaviour over, come one phase, give us that camera and be all you can be, best SW, Best Back best camera,


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jsiva
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« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2013, 02:55:58 PM »
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3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series - perfect and so I dont need SilverEfex Pro which is leaps ahead of most things for $100, and as I shoot raw why do i need an 80 million pixel jpeg


Converting a file that has gone through a bayer array to B&W is quite different from a file from an Achromatic sensor which does not have the bayer array to begin with.  There is a difference.  The Leica MM and previous Phase Achromat+ are the only "production" versions of this kind of sensor I am aware of.  Kodak may have had one in the early days as well.  Unlike the Leica MM, both old and new Phase Achromatic backs allow full-spectrum accross UV, visible and IR.

While I do enjoy using Silver EFEX and consider it a great product, we are talking two different animals here.

Also, the file out of the Achro back is not a JPEG - as in processed into BW.  It is a BW RAW file.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 02:58:03 PM by jsiva » Logged
Chris Barrett
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« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2013, 03:55:56 PM »
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The Leica MM and previous Phase Achromat+ are the only "production" versions of this kind of sensor I am aware of. 

And the Red Epic Monochrome...  I have a project I think I need one of those for  Wink
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gazwas
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« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2013, 03:56:15 PM »
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Sanzari, you must of had a bad day!

Just shows we are all very different - the IQ2 feature set is just what every MFD shooter dreams about. The Wifi to iPad/iPad Mini/network alone is just amazing. Shoot with a tech camera and you will understand that as good as the IQ's built in screen is, 3.2" is just not very big for image review. As for DR, I don't understand your point of view - who wouldn't want more just because they shoot in a studio?

My P65 shoots beautiful files and I think it is a wonderful back but the whole IQ package is just excellent. Today I was shooting some product lifestyle shots with the 150D on the DF and this combo just rocks. The IQ would be the icing on the cake!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 03:57:59 PM by gazwas » Logged

trying to think of something meaningful........ Err?
jsiva
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« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2013, 04:05:06 PM »
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And the Red Epic Monochrome...  I have a project I think I need one of those for  Wink

Chris, I stand corrected, but those are the really big boys and I'm not allowed to run with that crew Smiley
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2013, 04:17:58 PM »
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1.  Does the wi-fi signal go to more than one Ipad?  This to me is really important as 1/2 the projects we do have multiple "eyes" that want/need to see.

No. On launch day it will only work with one iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch. Maybe something for future firmware improvements.

However, any iOS device can be jacked into an HDMI monitor or HDMI TV.

If you're in a studio, shooting in a more controlled environment, and don't mind the tether cable I think tethering is still the best option. That gives you one or two primary monitors at the tether station and the option for several iPads.


2.  What is the fps or spf of the 260?    

In full resolution (60mp) speed is 1fps with no buffer limit (you can fill a large CF card without slowing down)

If you're ok with the 15mp resolution in sensor+ mode that increases to 1.4 fps (again, no buffer limit)

3.  Can you set color/tone/look on the Ipaq, like in C-1 so the view is a little more customized?

Today: no.

In the future, perhaps some minimal/limited customizations (a few presets for curves/color for instance). I would not buy it predicated on that requirement.

4.  What is availability for other camera platforms.  Usually Contax is last on the list to come out.  In regards to mounts what will be offered.  Obviously DF+ and H, Contax, but any other mounts without adapters?

Contax, Hassy H, Hassy V, Mamiya/Phase

The first batch to ship will surely be Mamiya/Phase but the others should follow shortly thereafter.

5. What is the REAL useable ISO?  Keep in mind that I don't mind some noise if it's pretty and shoot my P30+ at 800 iso all the time. Does all the IQ series do as well as the P30+ because the last time I used an Aptus with a Dalsa sensor, I loved the look but it didn't go to 800 as well as the Kodak sensor.  

I'd MUCH rather answer this by providing you raw files at ISO 200/400/800 and letting you decide. High ISO performance will be very similar to an IQ1 so I can provide such samples today. Capture One v7 does a great job with higher ISO files, especially from a digital back.

But if you're asking for my personal opinion I think ISO400 on full resolution and ISO1600 in sensor+ resolution are both eminently useable. Both will have grain/bite, but it's "pretty" in my opinion (again, I'd rather provide you files you can play with and decide for yourself).


6.  I know your just getting these in, but how is the realiability.  Stability is first on my list and I have zero time to go back and forth with issues? (This isn't a knock on Phase, because nearly all digital devices seem to need a series of firmware updates to catch some issues.

As you say, all we have is prototypes, so I absolutely cannot comment directly on real world reliability of the shipping product - they haven't shipped yet.

I think one can have high confidence in them based on these facts:
- as you've experienced with your own P1 backs, P1 has a solid track record of reliable performance
- these are an improved version of an existing/established/proven line. All the kinks of the IQ1 were worked out long ago.

Putting on my cynical digital tech hat for a second, it is absolutely the case that a brand new product should be assumed buggy until proven stable/reliable in hard testing. Perhaps you'd like to volunteer to play this role for us and report the results the forum?

7.  Will a Leaf version on the wi-fi become available.  I love the reliability of my Phase backs, but recently did a quick test (actually testing LED fresnels) and tested a H4d, a Aptus and a IQ and in my very brief test, like the Leaf interface.   On a side note I thought the DF (not the plus) autofocus was very good.  I know there are some people that didn't think that, so when I tested these cameras, I really tried to trick the DF autofocus with people passing the foreground, soft backlight, walking to camera at a quick pace, etc. and thought the DF worked very well in autofocus.  I did have more difficulty hitting manual focus on the DF and not to hijack a thread, but thought the H4d40 I tested had good manual focus.

I can't comment on products that don't exist. Team Phase One is one company and includes Phase One, Leaf, Mamiya, and a long term strategic arrangement with Schneider, but for now the IQ2 technology is only in the IQ2.

If you liked the DF autofocus I think you'll really like the DF+ autofocus. The DF was accurate, but would occasionally hunt for focus. The DF+ locks on more immediately, with more confidence, and with what can only be described as more gusto.

That said, you love Contax, and I'd never try to talk someone out of a body they feel they have a great working relationship with.

8.  Will the IQ backs (the new and the older IQ versions give a black and white preview?  I don't shoot a lot of B+W only projects but when I do it's great to see it in black and white.

9.  This question is going to seem kinda of crazy but for years we've investigated ways to get multiple screen views from one camera.  Let me explain.  I've always wanted to have a custom frame build (kind of like rack mount video/field monitors, that work like this.  Let's say you have 8 monitors (of Ipads).  When you fire the first frame it goes on screen one and holds, frame 2 goes to screen 2 and holds, frame three goes to screen 3 and holds, etc. etc. until frame nine that then refreshes to frame 1 and starts the process again.  

I know this sounds like a dog and pony show (it is) but these is a usefulness of this as clients are always huddling around the tech station when we're shooting saying "can you go back to the previous frame.

This could absolutely be done today (I'm pretty sure I could program it), but would require a LOT of custom programming/scripting/implementation which probably makes it impractical to pursue on your own. I think it's a really fantastic idea and I'll pass it on to Phase One; it's very specific, but tools like Overlay, Focus Mask, and the Profoto lighting control in Capture One all started as user requests that seemed very narrow-application at first.

You may also want to look into the WEB version of Capture Pilot, which could be viewed on an iPad, iPhone, or iMac (or any internet connected device with a modern browser including smart TVs). It's interface is not exactly as you describe, but might address the same problem in an efficient (and bullet proof) manner without any custom code and with minimal setup/hassle.
[/quote]

10.   How will the IQ2 impact the prices on the IQ1?   Will there bee a rush of trade ins/ups?

List price for the IQ1 has already been lowered in anticipation of the shipping of the IQ2 this summer. This sounds saleish, but so be it: the next few months will be an excellent time to buy an IQ1 whether used, new, refurbished, from a dealer or not. Once the IQ2 has started shipping the volume of trade-ins
will slow considerably.

I do expect a lot of trade-ins, especially from the IQ160 and P45+. So if you're looking for pre-owned my suggestion would be to make your desires/time-frame/budget known to your dealer of choice so it's on their desk as they start taking trade-in deals. Especially for Contax or Hassy V users, as those mounts are less common in an IQ back.

11.   Any word (wink wink) of what the new phase camera will be like.

I think the IQ, IQ2, and Schneider LS lenses are the best real-world guidelines as to what Team Phase One's R+D department are able to accomplish with today's technology. Translate that level of industrial design, electronic performance, and design priorities into a body and you have the most concrete information I can give you :-).


12.  I doubt if this will happen, but what is the chance of a back that mounts to different platforms, like a Hasselblad and a Contax?  I know, I know, but a person can wish.

For better or worse I think the chance of this is zero. Sorry Sad

13.  Is it possible to put my p21+ inside an IQ2?   Just kidding, actually not exactly as I love the speed, the file look of the p21.  I've shot that back so often and worked it so much in post I have it zoned out like I know my favorite pair of shoes.  It's just all automatic to me making that file look like film.

I know, I know nobody is going back in pixels.

Actually...

P21+ is 1.25 fps, 18mp (4:3) with ISO100-800 (I'd say 400 was the highest usable, opinions rightly vary).

IQ160 in sensor+ is 1.4 fps, 15mp (4:3) with ISO200-3200 (I'd say 1600 is the highest usable, opinions rightly vary).

So I think it's fair to say you can have a P21+ in an IQ. You'll also receive, as a nice "extra" the option to flip a switch and shoot 60mp, 1fps (4:3) with ISO50-800. Also, it will be full frame, rather than a 1.3 crop. So when shooting your 80/2 lens wide open you'll get an even crazier shallow DOF.

Every camera has a unique look/draw. However, a good dealer can work with a collection of sample files from both cameras (under your lighting types/style/etc) and help you craft C1 styles (curves, profiles, etc) for the new back which closely mimics the older back. I've done this several times.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 09:36:48 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2013, 04:38:22 PM »
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1. Holy Dynamic Range Batman - Increased to 13 stops - and given most of these cameras are used in studios why do i need 13 stops as the lighting is totally controlled ? Most of the ones that make it into the field are they working professionals who actually bought the camera ??

Of our IQ customers I'd say over half shoot outside or in uncontrolled light at least 20% of the time, and at least a quarter of them do so at least 80% of the time*. This is a big change from a decade ago when the Phase One H25 was just being released and could only shoot tethered, had no LCD and was, in practice, limited to ISO100. Perhaps that's what you think medium format is today; but that is not the Phase One IQ.

When shooting architecture, interior, landscape, location fashion, location portrait, weddings, or any event DR can be enormously important.

If exclusively shooting in studio with full control over lighting I completely agree DR is not high on my priority list.

It really never hurts though.

2. Long Exposure has Returned with the Phase One IQ260 - brilliant so the ones that get out in the world (most are loaners on test) it appears to take a while to process. the fact it has returned , innovation Huh


I'd agree it doesn't count as "innovation" as they already did it before with the P45+. This time around they've increased the base ISO for long exposures to ISO140 which means waiting around 1/3rd as long.

But "innovation" or not it's going to be very popular.

3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series - perfect and so I dont need SilverEfex Pro which is leaps ahead of most things for $100, and as I shoot raw why do i need an 80 million pixel jpeg

Not everyone will understand/want/care-about an 60mp raw bayer-free pure black and white camera with the ability to shoot visible, IR, or UV images, in a chassis with all the features of the IQ. In fact, most people will not. For a small group of fine art shooters, hobbyists, scientific/technical/art-reproduction/preservation/aerial companies, and purists it is not an exaggeration to say this is a huge announcement.

4. Wireless Viewing, No Computer Needed  - brilliant, except Nikon D800 is unusable with RAW images over the wire. I hope Phase has put in something else to move images faster, but everyone says JPEG only so hmmm
7. Wireless Works With Any iOS Device - great, at least we may find one fast enough

Correct. Sending full raw files wirelessly is a recipe for slow performance, and a disjointed workflow (when the raws are both on the CF and computer, and it can be a challenge to be 100% sure all CF card images made it to the computer).

That's why P1 made the wireless review/editing function work in an entirely different way. The images remain on the CF card, and the iPad/iPhone can view the shots as they are made, or review past shots, including rating, tagging, and white balancing.

6. Remote Review and Color Tagging - in the studio takes ages to walk from one end to the other

If YOU (the photographer) are rating the images then the iPad/iPhone option will not be that helpful - you can already do this on the back of the camera, or at the tether station.

However, in many workflows it is some third party (art director, client, hair stylist, talent manager etc) who is rating the images. If they have to do so on the tether computer or on the back of the camera the shoot can grind to a halt. Put them in a cushy seat, give them a glass of chardonay and an iPad, ask them to mark images they are fond of (in an interface a child could use, and which provides no chance for them to screw up the images somehow), and maybe they will stay the heck out of the way.  Grin

5. Remote Operation of the Camera - i thought this was already there, called assistant please press the button

We have customers use remote operation in situations where the camera is not easily/advisably accessible (e.g. on a crane, in a cherry picker, mounted overhead of a set, etc). Having that control without having to tether to a computer will open up some possibilities.

We also have several customers who do relatively large shoots solo (for privacy, for cost, out of tradition/hatred-for-working-with-others). For them to walk into the set (of e.g. an interior) and move something and have the ability to trigger the camera, change aperture/shutter/iso, and see the resulting image (without having to tether or walk back to the camera) will be a big deal.
 
8. GPS Auto Geotagging - I know where my studio is and actually it spends all its time there, save the innovation and add something like a new camera

If you never leave your studio GPS auto tagging won't help you one iota.

Many of our customers do, and for them auto tagging of GPS data without any additional accessories/cost (assuming you own an iPhone) will be very nice.

They are working on a new camera, as announced publicly by the CEO. You can R+D more than one project at once. In fact if you don't you're likely to fail.

That said the DF+, H4X, Contax, RZ, and Rollei all make pretty darn good cameras today. As do the plethera of tech cameras and view cameras. All offer capabilities you cannot find in a dSLR, and capabilities different from each other, creating a nice ecosystem if you ask me.

*this is of course just a guesstimation - made in good faith, and with decent experience to make it, but nevertheless based on no formal survey/statistics/science.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 04:40:25 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2013, 04:50:52 PM »
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I found out today, seemingly you still have to use the dark exposure. I find this to be a complete waste of time. I mean can someone here please explain their workflow if they take a 1hr exposure and than have to sit there scratching their ass for another hour before another exposure can be captured. It's like you buy a nice car but you have to push it half the journey each time. The camera seems fantastic but why the hell do Phase One re design the sensor and than offer what appears to be a great feature but is unusable for many photographers due to the time required to capture the shot.

Bear in mind the base ISO of the long exposure is now ISO140 rather than ISO50 (as it was with the P45+). So if the P45+ required an hour for a given scene the IQ260 will only require 20 minutes, followed by a 20 minute dark frame - 20 minutes LESS than the hour the P45+ required just to do the capture (let along the dark frame).

Now if your goal is specifically to do time lapse or star trails, in which you only care about doing multiple exposures in a row with minimal gap (rather than getting enough light from a given scene for a good exposure) then the dark frame sucks. There are some work arounds for some situations; others it's a simple no-go.

Of the backs that don't require a dark frame the longest exposure specification is 256 seconds at ISO100. So for anyone who wants more than that in a digital back this is the best solution out there. You have to give them some credit for getting much more in the way of long exposure out of each sensor than anyone else has. If it doesn't work for your needs I totally understand, but that doesn't make it a "waste of time" for everyone; others will have other needs which this fits extremely well.

Now, why the dark frame can't be turned off for shorter exposures (e.g. 15 seconds) where it's conceivable that you could maybe get good quality without it - that does irk me a bit. I'll be speaking with R+D about the technology behind the IQ260 long exposure soon and will ask about this.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 04:54:05 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2013, 04:52:22 PM »
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Just shows we are all very different - the IQ2 feature set is just what every MFD shooter dreams about. The Wifi to iPad/iPad Mini/network alone is just amazing. Shoot with a tech camera and you will understand that as good as the IQ's built in screen is, 3.2" is just not very big for image review. As for DR, I don't understand your point of view - who wouldn't want more just because they shoot in a studio?

The real question being why image review is needed in the field at all when shooting landscape...

I can understand the value of wifi for the x% of IQ users shooting for clients in "studio" environment (indoors or outdoors) because it may help show them live images being shot (but a large HDMI screen sounds better when possible).

Now, it appears to me that a majority of Phaseone customers are not shooting for clients in a pro environment. Is this assumption correct? For those guys (let's call them landscape shooters for the sake of discussion) isn't perfect focusing with live view a better solution? Light can be disapearing fast, why have to go through a focus accuracy check on an ipad you have to carry around in the field? Genuine question... I would really like to understand the use case.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2013, 04:55:27 PM »
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Now, it appears to me that a majority of Phaseone customers are not shooting for clients in a pro environment. Is this assumption correct?

I certainly can't say that definitively. Pros and non-pros both represent a big chunk of the users, as do rental houses, institutional, and special applications. It's a much more diverse market segment than most individual photographers get to see. Yesterday I spoke with a half dozen photographers (architecture, landscape, 2xfashion, portrait, editorial) about purchases/upgrades to the IQ260/IQ280. Today I worked with the City Hall of a major city on evaluating using a back on a copy stand for capturing a large vault's worth of architectural blue prints from the early 1900s. On Thursday I'm training a group of professors/students at a major university how to use a digital back on a microscope to capture slides of monkey brains for rapid medical diagnosis.

Certainly it's fair to say the non-pro segment has grown with the advent of digital backs which are easier to use in the field. There were very few non-pro users of the tether-only-no-LCD H25 for instance. It's also fair to say that group is very well represented on this forum (not surprising given the name and heritage of the forum).
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 05:05:53 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
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« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2013, 05:00:57 PM »
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The real question being why image review is needed in the field at all when shooting landscape...

[...]

For those guys (let's call them landscape shooters for the sake of discussion) isn't perfect focusing with live view a better solution? Light can be disapearing fast, why have to go through a focus accuracy check on an ipad you have to carry around in the field? Genuine question... I would really like to understand the use case.

CMOS-style 30fps live view would be preferable yes.

But for many such users a [digital back on a tech camera with Schneider/Rodenstock wide angles and the ability to capture 60/80mp raw files in a single image with movement on every lens and a manner of shooting which some find to be very tactile/traditional] is preferable to a [dSLR platform].

So since today (and for the foreseeable future) you can't have both, this provides a way to make the digital platform more enjoyable/desirable/full-proof.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2013, 05:13:15 PM »
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CMOS-style 30fps live view would be preferable yes.

But for many such users a [digital back on a tech camera with Schneider/Rodenstock wide angles and the ability to capture 60/80mp raw files in a single image with movement on every lens and a manner of shooting which some find to be very tactile/traditional] is preferable to a [dSLR platform].

So since today (and for the foreseeable future) you can't have both, this provides a way to make the digital platform more enjoyable/desirable/full-proof.

Makes sense Doug, thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
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bcooter
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« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2013, 05:33:32 PM »
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The real question being why image review is needed in the field at all when shooting landscape...

I can understand the value of wifi for the x% of IQ users shooting for clients in "studio" environment (indoors or outdoors) because it may help show them live images being shot (but a large HDMI screen sounds better when possible).

Now, it appears to me that a majority of Phaseone customers are not shooting for clients in a pro environment. Is this assumption correct? For those guys (let's call them landscape shooters for the sake of discussion) isn't perfect focusing with live view a better solution? Light can be disapearing fast, why have to go through a focus accuracy check on an ipad you have to carry around in the field? Genuine question... I would really like to understand the use case.

Cheers,
Bernard


Hey Bernard,

I can tell you what I've learned about image review.

As much as we all say we want to "feel" the shot in the viewfinder (and I did this for years with film)  once we got electronic previews from the small camera lcds, to 30" monitors and now monitors for clients and an I pad I put next to the camera . . .

I've found that nothing really shows you the image like seeing it large to larger.

After all our Canvas is really the computer.  Every image, even if your final goal is print, spends 99.9999999% of it's viewing time on a screen and the closer you can get to seeing it on an lcd Canvas the more you, or should I say "I" notice things.

Photography is a profession of woulda, coulda, shoulda and when I'm shooting fast, reviewing images on the back of my Canon, they're ok, I can see them, judge them, but once I put them on the screen I always find things I would like to have changed.

When I can slow down and tether to a larger screen and send the image to an I-pad I usually notice it on the set, rather than later.

After all if nobody needed to change anything after the shot, they're wouldn't be photoshop.

IMO

BC
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stevenf
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« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2013, 05:43:14 PM »
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I am with Bernard - as a landscape photographer viewing the image on the back of the camera and using live view for critical focus would be my preferred choice. Of course, I am always interested in trying something new and willing to change. Already, I am hiking with 56 lbs of camera gear adding an ipad would just be more weights. I guess if you are the sort of landscape photographer that shoots from the road and does not hike for miles than this may not matter and the larger screen would be great.

Steven
http://www.friedmanphoto.com
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JohnCox123
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« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2013, 06:30:41 PM »
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Will I be able to integrate these backs into (self published) iOS applets?
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