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Author Topic: Win Color Management Advanced tab?  (Read 4431 times)
Schewe
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« on: March 14, 2013, 12:35:21 PM »
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Quick question for the Windows users (since I'm more of a Mac person),

In the Color Management Control Panel, there's an advanced tab relating to Windows Color System (WCS) Defaults...

See this figure:



I have changed the Device profile to my icm profile for the display (yep, running Win 7 on Parallels) but it's unclear (and a Google search didn't help) whether the WCS profile for the Viewing condition profile should be WCS profile for ICC viewing conditions or WCS profile for sRGB viewing conditions.

From what limited and confusing info I've found, it doesn't seem like the Advanced panel doesn't really make any difference if you are using color managed apps like Photoshop & Lightroom as long as your display profile is correctly set as the Default in the Devices panel.

I've tried both options and see not difference (even doing a reboot between changes...

As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the whole WCS Gamut Mapping thing that uses CIECAM02 isn't relevant when using color managed apps like PS & LR, right? Meaning, the WCS color appearance model isn't really being used with a totally ICC based color management, right?

Thanks...I'm painfully aware of all the issues on Mac (that Apple has forced on users) but I'm not experienced in Win CM.
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Fine_Art
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2013, 01:04:03 PM »
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Where did you find that dialog box? I have never seen such a thing from Win 3.1 to 7. I'm hunting through my control panel now, there is no color management AFAICS. Maybe its something particular to Mac/Windows dual boot systems? For me my Spider 4 calibrates the screen. It puts an icc file in the color directory. Any app that is color calibrated uses "use system colors" which are loaded on boot or you pick the icc file in the program.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2013, 01:09:28 PM »
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I'm a Win7 user and I've really never fooled around with the Advanced Tab.  I profile my monitor using NEC Spectraview package and if I look on the Device Tab for my display it shows the current ICC profile that is always used for the monitor (the NEC prepared profile)  the checkbox 'Use my settings for this device' is checked.  I suspect that Spectraview automates things such that one doesn't need to go to the Advanced Tab.  I also believe your statement about LR and PS is correct as one can assign the profile in PS, LR is ProPhoto by default.

Hope this helps.

Alan
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2013, 01:11:38 PM »
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Where did you find that dialog box? I have never seen such a thing from Win 3.1 to 7. I'm hunting through my control panel now, there is no color management AFAICS.
You should have a 'Color Management' section in the Control Panel and it also has a Tab that lists every profile that is installed on your computer and this alone is useful since you can easily delete unused profiles.

Alan
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Fine_Art
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2013, 01:26:18 PM »
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You should have a 'Color Management' section in the Control Panel and it also has a Tab that lists every profile that is installed on your computer and this alone is useful since you can easily delete unused profiles.

Alan

I found it here (see screenshot). This is better than older versions of windows.
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Jim Kasson
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2013, 02:23:55 PM »
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Jeff,

I don't have much in the way of answers, but I do have a little.

1) The same Advanced tab appears in Win 8.

2) Looking at the second bullet on the fourth slide of this presentation, it looks like you're right about the CIECAM02 not affecting the ICC workflow.

I'd be interested in what you find, and will run experiments if you want me to.

Jim

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Fine_Art
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2013, 02:30:27 PM »
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I'd also like to know what anyone can share on the subject, thanks in advance.
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Schewe
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2013, 02:54:11 PM »
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2) Looking at the second bullet on the fourth slide of this presentation, it looks like you're right about the CIECAM02 not affecting the ICC workflow.

Yeah, it's funny...back when Vista was still called Longhorn, I (and a few Mac friends) were actually hired by MSFT to consult (on a panel called the Digital Imaging Advisory Group (DIAG)) with them about why high-end graphic pros used Mac instead of Windows...my answer was, if you have to ask the question, you wouldn't understand the answer :~)

Actually, at that time Mike Stokes (think sRGB) was heading up the whole WCS initiative and I'm pretty sure I saw that PP slide show then...which was weird looking at it again. At that time, MSFT was seriously considering dropping the whole ICM based profile workflow for the WCS XML based profile workflow system...which totally freaked us all out–seriously!

So, when Vista finally shipped, the whole WCS stuff was kinda like a poor cousin to ICM and as a result, major pro venders like Adobe and X-Rite never really followed up on doing the WCS CEICAM02 route. Which in a way is too bad because CIECAM02 has some interesting potential for color appearance modeling...

But, I digress...I'm STILL trying to figure out the Advanced tab of the Color Management Control Panel...and I figured with some "Bright Boys™" here, somebody would know something...I'll give it time (but I may need to call a friend :~)
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BobD
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 04:07:12 PM »
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Jeff,

I am not sure you have dug far enough yet! Click the "Change System Defaults" on this "advanced" screen


Clicking reveals this screen with another "Advanced" tab. Clicking that "Advanced" tab takes you to another "Advanced" screen below!


Now you may find what you are looking for here...
I have used this "Advanced" "Advanced" screen to check off "Use Windows display calibration" (blue highlight).
Checking this will immediately "display" your monitor "calibration" profile when you click the "Set as Default profile" button (on the 1st color management screen) without rebooting your system.


Hope this helps
Bob D
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Schewe
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2013, 04:19:50 PM »
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Bob,

Yeah, thanks...I've done that. If you note in my screenshot, the the correct profile is set (and it's set as Default in the Devices panel), what I'm still trying to figure out is the drop down for WCS for RGB or WCS for ICC Profiles setting...that's what I can't tell any differences with. It seems as though either are behaving essentially the same–at least with Win 7 running on Parallels which is a complicating factor in all this discussion :~)

I'm pretty sure none of the settings below in the ICC Rendering Intent to WCS Gamut Mapping are relevant to using Photoshop and Lightroom (I think :~), right? Since PS & LR done't (can't) use WCS Gamut Mapping...
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BobD
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2013, 04:34:44 PM »
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Jeff,

"I'm pretty sure none of the settings below in the ICC Rendering Intent to WCS Gamut Mapping are relevant to using Photoshop and Lightroom (I think :~), right? Since PS & LR done't (can't) use WCS Gamut Mapping..."

I believe so but I'll leave that up to guys you and Andrew to tell us.
...Will keep an eye on this post
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Schewe
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2013, 04:50:57 PM »
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I believe so but I'll leave that up to guys you and Andrew to tell us.

I'm pretty sure Andrew doesn't have a clue (but I'll ask him, he doesn't really do Windows). That's why I'm asking you Windows guys!!!

Ya'll are supposed to know this stuff!

:~)
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2013, 05:37:04 PM »
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That's why I'm asking you Windows guys!!!
Ya'll are supposed to know this stuff!
Just leave it on the defaults and it all works!
There's no magic needed here.
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bjanes
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2013, 06:19:00 PM »
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Bo,

Yeah, thanks...I've done that. If you note in my screenshot, the the correct profile is set (and it's set as Default in the Devices panel), what I'm still trying to figure out is the drop down for WCS for RGB or WCS for ICC Profiles setting...that's what I can't tell any differences with. It seems as though either are behaving essentially the same–at least with Win 7 running on Parallels which is a complicating factor in all this discussion :~)

I'm pretty sure none of the settings below in the ICC Rendering Intent to WCS Gamut Mapping are relevant to using Photoshop and Lightroom (I think :~), right? Since PS & LR done't (can't) use WCS Gamut Mapping...

If you use the Microsoft CMS rather than Adobe's, I think you can use WCS in Photoshop, but I have seen no reason to do so. You would need WCS profiles, I think. Like Allan Goldhammer I use spectra view with my NEC monitor and it sets up color management properly as confirmed on the advanced tab in Win8.

Bill
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Schewe
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2013, 06:34:38 PM »
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Guys,

I asked a color geek friend (Chris Murphy) what he though, here's what he said:

Anyone messing with these defaults is a tester. There is a meaningful difference between the ICC and sRGB viewing conditions that actually would be beneficial for home users. If it's wired correctly. I don't know if it is, but I'd think that it is. Next, is that this stuff only has an effect if at least one of the profiles in the chain is a WCS profile, that's one trigger for WCS. The other is the application needs to use the Microsoft CMM, rather than the Adobe CMM.

The bottom line is if the user wants consistency and interoperability with the ICC world, they need to leave the settings alone. Maybe they get better results doing something else but I suggest they change one thing at a time and thoroughly test before they move on.


:~) I asked him if I could quote him and he said yes!


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Jim Kasson
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2013, 07:33:16 PM »
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The bottom line is if the user wants consistency and interoperability with the ICC world, they need to leave the settings alone.

Jeff,

Thanks for researching this. I had been living in (as it turns out, justifiably) blissful ignorance. Now I live in informed ignorance.

Jim
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Schewe
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2013, 08:51:34 PM »
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Thanks for researching this. I had been living in (as it turns out, justifiably) blissful ignorance. Now I live in informed ignorance.

Yeah, I'm still sending emails off to color geek friends...I got this from Andrew:

I've got no bloodly clue but I think what Chris say's makes sense!

Which is exactly what I thought Andrew would say :~)

I'm trying to dig deeper. Heck, I may resort to emailing MSFT – EEEK!
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Nora_nor
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2013, 08:57:46 AM »
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I poked around in these settings with vista back then, and noticed that next time I turned on the pc, the settings were all changed, and it depended on which programs were running...very confusing.
I used a spyder or color munki and noticed that the system later went back to default icc profiles for the screen instead of the icc profile created by spyder.

I have not checked what win7 does.
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Schewe
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2013, 02:29:06 PM »
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I've got further comments from a Photoshop engineer who says:

Photoshop and most apps will ignore the WCS settings.
If there is a WCS device profile (display or print), we request that it be converted to a standard ICC profile.

And I doubt that anyone outside of MSFT could tell you what all their controls do.


So...I guess it's "Never Mind"...but at least we know now.
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