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Author Topic: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..  (Read 5379 times)
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2013, 07:53:14 AM »
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Doug,

You can call it silly, but there is one fact that you can't change: C1 is NOT intuitive (like most software out there). All we ask is to make it intuitive. That's based on common software UI and workflows. It's not what a "small group" wants. It's what's expected from using countless other software programs.

And 40% accepted it, it's a nice way of saying that they deal with the way it works because they like the output, not because it makes sense the way it works. And probably part of the other 40% that love it is because they hire people to do it for them Smiley

It's enjoyable to use, intuitive and powerful, and if you aren't currently bought-in to any particular system, it gives a very creamy, refined experience.

Nikonians Review.

I think as Doug says above you can't speak for all users.  As I have also stated in the past, we are working hard to make Capture One faster, easier, more efficient every day.

I would also argue that 'most' software is intuitive.  I can think of plenty of applications that have caused me frustration!
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David Grover
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2013, 05:58:06 PM »
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Doubtless Catalogue is Excellent

But hitting the page http://www.phaseone.com/en/Imaging-Software/Capture-One-Pro-7/Features.aspx - organisation

I find so many words extremely vague that I don't really want to engage with it

I don't know if there is something Danish going on but really the words don't make a lot of sense to me

I wrote me own imaging library and the linguistics is critical

Shoot - Job - Assignment ? for example (I selected job - less letters)

Mix that linguistic confusion and some elementary tests (moving folders around) and it all becomes fairly un appealing (as are LR and Ap)

As for intuitive use - yes - much software is highly intuitive - from basic things like using a cash-machine to most apps they are indeed intuitive

I see any software or hardware with a manual (that is ever used) as basically poorly designed

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2013, 07:29:31 PM »
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Makes me wonder if P1 should have just canned the sessions concept in v7 - or at least amalgamated it in the catalogue - rather than trying to be nice to existing users. Going forward, how viable is it to maintain two alternative organisation metaphors in one app. Better to take the heat?
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2013, 09:19:50 PM »
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That's why when C1v7 came out, I was beside myself. I thought, wow, these guys are either way out of touch, or they care zero about the independent studios, and photographers and only care about shooters that hire a digital tech.
The other portion of brainwashed folks(besides the niche shooter that for some reason do love the way C1 works. Let me not forget you few) that got their certification in C1 software and now wear it like some badge as a shield to protect it, and feel exclusive.

It's what Intuit Quickbooks was at one point geared to do(when going up with PeachTree and MS Money, etc), but years back they made the choice to open the flood gates(Not rely on training revenue or tech, and make it easy to use). So now there is a huge portion of businesses running on QB.  Not sure it that is a great example...but I see it fitting. Even MS is slowly after all these years seeing an alternate business model. Look at the surge of anything that is user friendly...Its often the unknown reason for a products success. That's my perspective. Maybe I'm too idealistic in a greed based world dominance of puppeteers?
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2013, 02:48:55 AM »
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Makes me wonder if P1 should have just canned the sessions concept in v7 - or at least amalgamated it in the catalogue - rather than trying to be nice to existing users. Going forward, how viable is it to maintain two alternative organisation metaphors in one app. Better to take the heat?

Hi John,

Because contrary to what Phil would like you to believe Sessions are a very popular workflow for some of our customers.  Read Doug's post earlier for a fair representation.

Therefore it stays.

D
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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2013, 02:51:38 AM »
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That's why when C1v7 came out, I was beside myself. I thought, wow, these guys are either way out of touch, or they care zero about the independent studios, and photographers and only care about shooters that hire a digital tech.
The other portion of brainwashed folks(besides the niche shooter that for some reason do love the way C1 works. Let me not forget you few) that got their certification in C1 software and now wear it like some badge as a shield to protect it, and feel exclusive.


Brainwashed?  Seriously?

I would hope that most of us would not choose to belittle a young person who has decided to spend their own money and further their education in their chosen industry.

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David Grover
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2013, 03:26:34 AM »
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Because contrary to what Phil would like you to believe Sessions are a very popular workflow for some of our customers.  Read Doug's post earlier for a fair representation.
Therefore it stays.
Sometimes you've got to take a leap of faith and give people something that may be good for them. You can always sugar that pill by, for example, making sessions into catalogue collections, and you'd obviously have to do other things to bring the workflows together. Perhaps a bit much for one cycle, but the alternative catalogue/sessions tracks seem unnecessarily confusing and costly in terms of engineering and (more importantly) learning.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2013, 03:36:27 AM »
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Sometimes you've got to take a leap of faith and give people something that may be good for them. You can always sugar that pill by, for example, making sessions into catalogue collections, and you'd obviously have to do other things to bring the workflows together. Perhaps a bit much for one cycle, but the alternative catalogue/sessions tracks seem unnecessarily confusing and costly in terms of engineering and (more importantly) learning.

Maybe we are just too nice.  Wink

You can in one click bring a Session into a catalog (useful for archiving).

Also, there is nothing to prevent you from shooting tethered directly into a Catalog if you wish.
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David Grover
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2013, 04:38:32 AM »
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Time will tell....
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2013, 10:55:56 AM »
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You can say it can shoot into a catalog, or bring a Session into a Catalog......

 The more you have to explain it David, the more obvious is the flawed approach. 

People have their own eyes ears and brain to process, I don't have to try and make anyone believe anything.  C1, or even Raw processing is not for trigger happy cowboys. It's for a methodical approach, which makes C1 an oximoron at that.

And yes, please do read what Doug posted, even with a forgivable bias there is 20% that really like it. The 60% who just deal with it or they simply look for alternate solutions.

This goes along my previous post(that I guess I left my first point somewhat incomplete).

David, you are too nice, to not help secure your future. There will at some point be an alternate, and when the other 20-40% question themselves..."Why is this software locking down the way I want to take pictures and make folders",... they too will see the light and jump ship.
With the economic down turn, the digiitech business model has shrunk and continues to shrink.   You have been very helpful with users, and this forum. I thank you for your contribution as your job, or personal input. And I don't say thiese things because I have to meet you guys face to face or that I'm in this relation for such a long time, and I feel I have to say anything nice. It is true and you are professional and doing a very good job with specific help people need. Unfortunately this is overshadowed by the foundational issues C1 has, and because you are surrounded by the enrolled culture, you don't see the outside paradoxical reality.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2013, 11:24:52 AM »
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You can say it can shoot into a catalog, or bring a Session into a Catalog......

 The more you have to explain it David, the more obvious is the flawed approach. 

People have their own eyes ears and brain to process, I don't have to try and make anyone believe anything.  C1, or even Raw processing is not for trigger happy cowboys. It's for a methodical approach, which makes C1 an oximoron at that.

And yes, please do read what Doug posted, even with a forgivable bias there is 20% that really like it. The 60% who just deal with it or they simply look for alternate solutions.

This goes along my previous post(that I guess I left my first point somewhat incomplete).

David, you are too nice, to not help secure your future. There will at some point be an alternate, and when the other 20-40% question themselves..."Why is this software locking down the way I want to take pictures and make folders",... they too will see the light and jump ship.
With the economic down turn, the digiitech business model has shrunk and continues to shrink.   You have been very helpful with users, and this forum. I thank you for your contribution as your job, or personal input. And I don't say thiese things because I have to meet you guys face to face or that I'm in this relation for such a long time, and I feel I have to say anything nice. It is true and you are professional and doing a very good job with specific help people need. Unfortunately this is overshadowed by the foundational issues C1 has, and because you are surrounded by the enrolled culture, you don't see the outside paradoxical reality.

Then I guess we agree to disagree.

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David Grover
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hcubell
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2013, 11:28:30 AM »
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I think nothing has so perfectly captured the impenetrability of the C1 7 Sessions architecture as the following post from another forum from a very experienced photographer who has owned a number of Phase backs and who was trying to get her head around Sessions so she can just get her images processed:

"Ok, [Mr. X, an individual who is a Capture 1 "expert" trying to explain how to set up a folder structure to accommodate Sessions], let me understand something...say I have the top folder: Colorado RAW. Inside that is the session folder that contains the capture folder, output folder, trash folder, etc etc. Now should the actual colorado raw files be in the primary top level "Colorado RAW" folder OR....should the raw images actually be inside the Capture folder that is inside the session folder that is inside the primary "colorado RAW" folder?? Hope I'm not being too confusing. thanks!"

Seriously. Who would design a piece of software like that if you were starting from scratch?
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2013, 12:55:09 PM »
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Ive been dazed for years. To this day I have not come across the 20% in the 10+years with PhaseOne backs alone, well after v3.7 was revamped.... saying that C1 is the software to use.... UNLESS you are on the job with a digital tech and everyone is there to make the client happy. And yes, it makes the best processing for some images than other processors,(I don't just give you that, you deserve it)  but all the fuzz during the shoot with client is just icing to make what we do look smooth with no bumps int the process.

It is unfortunate that C1 IS the ONLY software you can capture with when using a PhaseOne back. Why is that when brands like Canon or Nikon, or most other brands have extended this to other apps willing to offer it?

Even the little help of other apps allowing the shoot would help...... I would shoot with ANOTHER app, I could just browse to MY folders and forcefully process my base file in C1 and "Get Out of Dodge" to what ever else I will do with the file in processing and catalog/archiving.

I was doing this with C13.7 for some time. then things got slow new drivers, and new processing engine, it would force yet another application by going from C13.7 to C17 to process, then to another ,....this is the daisy chain C1's approach puts forward.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2013, 07:05:17 PM »
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Up until C1v3.710 they had it perfect.

I'm sure they would have to change a number of things from v3.7x to what it was able to do up until v6(before catalog/cripple sessions).
But none that would have to change the way we could select a folder and files simply get written in them. Simple as that.

It was fast, light, accurate, simple to browser as you would in Folders, or Win Explorer......and now we have metadata, layers, brush, grads, lens corrections. These are all rather welcome, but at the price of fundamental approach to OS file ssytems??? Are you kidding me?! Program Architect is either running things at C1, or perhaps a family link of loyalty that is unshakable, and that person is on the high up position. Otherwise this entire approach would have collapsed ages ago.

Too bad, do we have to wait for the industry to shrink to a point they see that they shouldn't be bottling it? While the entry and mid level is growing and booming, they are missing the boat on that front. I doubt retailers and workshops are preaching C1!
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