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Author Topic: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..  (Read 8926 times)
Morgan_Moore
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« on: March 18, 2013, 04:41:40 PM »
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Hi just got v7 to make my new D600 work

Im bombarded with some weird file management stucture BS - sessions, collections or what not

I just want to browse my folders as I did with C1.6

Is there a way to do that?

Do I need the express version not the pro version - if so can I downgrade!

--

Separately (or not) I have a client attends their photo shoots - it would be easy (and acceptable) for me to put the raw files on to their machine.. then work my copy of the files and then send a small data file to them to apply to their copy of the images.

Thanks

S

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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 01:31:46 AM »
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Im totally lost here - P1 seem to have some language issues

Here is my understanding of some words..

Session - Drinking a lot of beer

Album - 33RPM record

Collection - thing done by a charity short of cash.

User - drug addict

Collection - shelf full of broken film cameras

----

Seriously I don't have to keep my head in the sand here but i'm pretty short on finding resources how to use all of this stuff

The mystical archiving in LightRoom and Aperture are the very reason that I has sold me C1 for the last 5 years or so.

I guess C1 is now forcing you to add images (or reference there-to) a database

So where is this database? - do I need to back it up. is it large, can it be shared?

The database references images - what happens if I move my images, around on the computer/on/offline (YES They get lost)

If I delete an image (from my machine) does the DB 'know' of just think its offline -

What a mess.













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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 01:46:23 AM »
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1uj5ytvklo&feature=player_embedded

The first words are 'c1p7 now has the option of storing your images as a catalogue

if it is an option who do I use c1 without taking that option up

I just want to take a raw file, give it a look and export as a tiff or jpg - is it that hard?

I have my own catalogue running since 2002 on millions of images and dont need a new one

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2013, 01:58:36 AM »
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Nice I just found; "Pictures: Capture One Library" 542mb (of what) from one little corporate shoot
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 03:25:05 AM »
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Morgan,

You can use Sessions exactly as before in Capture One 6.  That is what you were doing, but maybe inadvertently.

In any Session you can browse system folders... like you were doing in Capture One 6.

Goto File>New Session and continue as you did, in Capture One 6.

David

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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 03:54:10 AM »
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Thanks - life saver! That seems to work.

I see - sort of.

In my years of C1 ive never used (knowingly) a session

It now opens using 'untitled session' and works as expected

Still no idea what a session is or why I need one..

« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 04:07:17 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 04:22:32 AM »
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Morgan
You're speaking out of my heart! The file system of C1 7 Pro to me is a mess too. So, I'm trying to stay with sessions as David Grover recommends. But be aware: sessions have changed too: Like you, i was happily browsing through folders back in C1 6 (not being aware that this is called a session and thus was moving on unstable grounds). Now with C1 7, if  you move a file into a different folder it will be gone (means: hidden from your view). You will have to open a new session to make it visible again in that other folder. Is this a bug? We don't know.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 05:34:51 AM »
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Ill watch that!

Overall Im sure C1 catalogue is a good thing - maybe - but coming from 10 years on another system (MS access) it will not be easy to sell it to me

Hitting the new version on deadline for delivering some images was not a good idea - but thats life - shoot on new camera because old one was bust - grab the software upgrade to read the files.

But it seems like a lot of button presses - if Phase want people to move to thier system I think their videos need to be a lot more clear

there are so many questions that spring to mind for an old cynic like me when looking at a new way of doing things..
offline HDs,
moving deleting,
backing up
cumbersome duplicates filling up the HD
background processes slowing machine
bla bla

those things that Ap and Lr are so guilty of!

S

« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 05:41:09 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2013, 05:45:22 AM »
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Hi Maka,

No, that definitely shouldn't happen!  If you move an image it shouldn't disappear.  Have you raised it with support?

I don't exclusively recommend Sessions.  I recommend what's right for you.

Hi Morgan,

Want to know what a Session is?  You'll understand it in a few minutes..

http://youtu.be/_FcfE67Ln_4

I would disagree its a mess - somewhat new perhaps!  But you can

a) Still use a session
b) Browse the system folder if you wish
c) Use a Catalog for a whole bunch of other advantages!

Can I recommend you join a future Webinar or Catalogs?

http://www.phaseone.com/en/FooterMenu/Events.aspx

27th March.  9AM and 4PM GMT.   Free to join.

David



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David Grover
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 05:56:29 AM »
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That video does not tell me what a session is in any way at all.

Listen to the audio from that video, maybe write it down and you will see that it does not tell what it is.

It tells me they are 'popular', 'still supported', 'traditional', etc but not what one is or why I should want one.

I guess a 'session' is a small file/folder inside the  folder of images that stores information prescient to the C1 experience, changes to WB, variants, etc.

but that is just a guess

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session

That document/file could e known as an EDL or many other things

S








« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 06:05:01 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 08:36:38 AM »
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That video does not tell me what a session is in any way at all.

Listen to the audio from that video, maybe write it down and you will see that it does not tell what it is.

It tells me they are 'popular', 'still supported', 'traditional', etc but not what one is or why I should want one.

I guess a 'session' is a small file/folder inside the  folder of images that stores information prescient to the C1 experience, changes to WB, variants, etc.

but that is just a guess

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session

That document/file could e known as an EDL or many other things

S





I don't have to write the audio down as I wrote the script...

A Session is a simple way of keeping all elements from a shoot or project in one place.  Basically we have a straightforward folder structure to help us organise our images.


voiceover
The Session folder we named has a number of other folders and files inside it.  The first file is the Session file.

voiceover
Double-clicking on this will open the Session in Capture One Pro 7.

voiceover
The next folder contains the image files we just imported.

voiceover
It also contains a subfolder which has settings information for each of the images.

voiceover
The Output folder contains processed image files.

voiceover
The Selects folder can be used to store the best images from a Session.

voiceover
Finally, the trash folders contains any images deleted from a Session.  However, they can still be retrieved if necessary.  To permanently delete them, choose ‘Empty Session Trash’ from the file menu.


That part describes every folder in the finder one by one.

I am not sure how it could be any clearer?

David
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 09:23:25 AM »
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But I have a way of keeping my shoots organised and in one place.. a folder (aka directory)

desktop->images->2013_03_20_myclient

Containing
RawCard1-n
TiffSelect1-n
Web_500px
 etc.

Been doing this for a decade.

So the video doesn't explain what a session is or what it does or why as it appears to solve a problem I don't have - keeping everything together?

I guess a session is a file(+bits) that mean the edit decisions don't get separated from the images and those decisions are (legitimately) considered to be an 'element' of the shoot?

If that is the case do I need a new session for every folder I work on or what etc etc?

I need everything to be in the folder "2013_03_20_myclient" as that folder can get moved all over the place - different machines and then offline to backup HDs

==

Believe me Im a massive fan of C1 and the images rendered and the GUI, just this upgrade threw me a little and now im feeling a little lost.

ANd thanks for taking the time to answer BTW..


« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:05:33 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 11:16:03 AM »
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Morgan....You are not alone....You are in the MAJORITY!!
I have used C1 since 10 years now.
It is something that is simply WRONG with C1, NOT wrong with YOU! PERIOD.

It is ignored as their Achilles heel.  If you search my posts I have explained, as others have on why C1 doesn't change this due to their enrollment program of educating and digital tech  "industry" they chose to create and want to fuel and keep exclusive.

Until they change it, even the new users that get into C1 will soon see how limiting and frustrating it is and look for an exit.

The only solution is for C1 to make a alternate version WITHOUT Sessions..IF they ditch the market they keep fueling.

Until PhaseOne Capture One addresses this, there will be MANY Morgan's, Phil's and all the others that will switch and avoid using C1 as much as possible. Need I say, these are usually a small group when compared to those that simply ditch C1 and use an alternate program.

If you are a long time LL active member, you will see that even the FOUNDER of this site doesn't support such a working approach and finds it confusing, and I think uses LightRoom(? I don't want to misinform, but that's what I thought a few years back from the posts). (In reality people looking for quality files will use multiple tools if they have to).

I will take every opportunity to stress this issue. I do this as C1 is a wonderful raw processor. I think for some of my work, I can get the best results. But I avoid it like a West Nile Virus!!
When I shoot with a Phase One back, I have NO choice, so that is why I can not simply move on! My apologies to Doug, David and others that have to keep hearing this, and as much as they try and explain, and try to show the positives...It never resolves the actual use and the limitations this approach forces...and they too know this.

I say this, so you know that it ISN'T YOU!


And I haven't tried this last months release of .2 update to v7...but the folder browser freezes/crashes on me.  I hope that is ironed out.  This has kept me from changing the folder I'm "supposed" to be working in. With v7 intro of catalog, it at first looks like it works cleaner, but you can't switch out(unless that is changed) .. I have to open back to a Session to go to folder. Its really a mess for anyone who manages their own work folders.....Let alone the folders it forces to make and use.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 11:22:38 AM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 11:37:50 AM »
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Morgan....You are not alone....You are in the MAJORITY!!
I have used C1 since 10 years now.
It is something that is simply WRONG with C1, NOT wrong with YOU! PERIOD.

It is ignored as their Achilles heel.  If you search my posts I have explained, as others have on why C1 doesn't change this due to their enrollment program of educating and digital tech  "industry" they chose to create and want to fuel and keep exclusive.

This is simply not correct. But we've had this argument many times in the past and I know I won't change your mind.

The way C1 does organization is different than other software. It's much better for some users/uses and irritating for some users/uses. In my experience (namely doing C1 workshops, seminars, webinars, and phone calls for several hundred photographers/techs/assistants/retouching-departments over five years), it's loved by maybe 40%, accepted by 40%, and berated by 20%. The 20% sure are vocal though (and have valid points for their personal preferences and needs).

Promoting and arguing for a change or additional options that would suit your personal needs/wants better, and seeking out others with the same opinion to have greater sway is smart, and good for everyone. But to say that C1 "ignores" this because it's not done the way you personally (and some small group of users here and on the P1 forum) would prefer, and making the issue so vitriolic (at least that's how it reads in the written word) is... well, silly and counter productive.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2013, 12:18:40 PM »
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Quote
But to say that C1 "ignores" this because it's not done the way you personally (and some small group of users here and on the P1 forum) would prefer, and making the issue so vitriolic (at least that's how it reads in the written word) is... well, silly and counter productive.

Yes, we have had this open dialogue/discussion often (I don't think it is an argument with 60%, (specially from perspective with much of your time training users  ;-)

I admit I am a bit bitter about it. (It costs me and my crew money from capture to final process). It puts a kink in workflow.

Also... I do deal with it Doug, and I fall into the 40% that does. It doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my opinion if I'm dealing with it.....Specially when there are others in the 40% that deal with it and another 20% that have switched or do what ever...

So it isn't simply a personal gain, nor a small group.   I don't want to be counter productive...silly, sure, why not. It isn't the end of the world.  But the point is, that there is at least 60% that sway this way..... Correct me if I'm wrong, but C1 HAS ignored this. How have they addressed it?


On another note....
For anyone that is looking to use C1 or needs any training in it, I can personally say from my experience that Doug Peterson is an amazing person/instructor(thats hardly the limits of his abilities and work of course). He can custom tailor and advise you for your shooting or studio needs.
He has resolved issues and has responded to calls of help with no hesitation, taking his personal time to get you up and running. So if you have to use C1 or a part of the 20% that love it..... 

Big FYI, I too Love C1 for its processing abilities,  as I have stressed in most of my critical comments. Its a love hate relationship I continue to deal with since C1 3.7's folder browsing changed.

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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2013, 01:56:19 PM »
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But I have a way of keeping my shoots organised and in one place.. a folder (aka directory)

desktop->images->2013_03_20_myclient

Containing
RawCard1-n
TiffSelect1-n
Web_500px
 etc.

Been doing this for a decade.

So the video doesn't explain what a session is or what it does or why as it appears to solve a problem I don't have - keeping everything together?

I guess a session is a file(+bits) that mean the edit decisions don't get separated from the images and those decisions are (legitimately) considered to be an 'element' of the shoot?

If that is the case do I need a new session for every folder I work on or what etc etc?

I need everything to be in the folder "2013_03_20_myclient" as that folder can get moved all over the place - different machines and then offline to backup HDs

==

Believe me Im a massive fan of C1 and the images rendered and the GUI, just this upgrade threw me a little and now im feeling a little lost.

ANd thanks for taking the time to answer BTW..




Happy to help!

You can pretty much setup the Session structure as you want.  Once you have your session setup, you could make any number of folders within the Session folder, drag them to "Session Favorites", make them the Capture folder or Selects folder by right clicking on them and choosing the appropriate options.

Images can be drag and dropped into your chosen selects folder or there are short cut keys for the job.

When you export you can make a recipe which automatically drops the images into folders with the appropriate names (like Web_500px as ou suggest).  Or make multiple recipes with multiple output types all going into automated folders.

I am not sure I fully understand your folder structure...

Is "2013_03_20_myclient" the top level of a folder which contains everything for ONE particular shoot?  Or is it for multiple clients for one day?  If its the first option then you have pretty much described a Session!

A Session can work for you, you just need to know how to pull the strings.

How about sitting down with your Phase One Partner for half an hour for some advice?  Or see how other users use Sessions in our own forum?

I am glad you are a fan of the GUI and the rendering.  Thanks!

David
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2013, 05:00:56 PM »
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Happy to help!

You can pretty much setup the Session structure as you want.  Once you have your session setup, you could make any number of folders within the Session folder, drag them to "Session Favorites", make them the Capture folder or Selects folder by right clicking on them and choosing the appropriate options.

Images can be drag and dropped into your chosen selects folder or there are short cut keys for the job.

When you export you can make a recipe which automatically drops the images into folders with the appropriate names (like Web_500px as ou suggest).  Or make multiple recipes with multiple output types all going into automated folders.

I am not sure I fully understand your folder structure...

Is "2013_03_20_myclient" the top level of a folder which contains everything for ONE particular shoot?  Or is it for multiple clients for one day?  If its the first option then you have pretty much described a Session!

A Session can work for you, you just need to know how to pull the strings.

How about sitting down with your Phase One Partner for half an hour for some advice?  Or see how other users use Sessions in our own forum?

I am glad you are a fan of the GUI and the rendering.  Thanks!

David


David, I have also voiced similar complaints to you about Sessions. What you describe as a workflow here may "work", but it is obviously a workaround, a kludge, that allows you to make nice with the Sessions-based architecture of the program so you can go and try to produce work. It is completely non-intuitive. The best software is software that allows you to work intuitively, and the Sessions concept is anything but intuitive. I don't expect you to admit it in a public forum as you work for Phase now, but Phocus was, in my experience, a far more user friendly program than Capture One. Not better in terms of results, but better in terms of ease of use.
You make a great processing engine with some excellent tools. Why make it so difficult for most of us to use them? There are millions of potential users of DSLRs out there who are shooting raws that might love the results that they would get with Capture One 7. Do they need Sessions? I cannot imagine that it is anything other than a huge PIA for them. They may also not be interested in using the Phase One catalog alternative (which by many accounts is not ready for prime time). They may already have a catalog in Lightroom. 
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2013, 05:42:48 PM »
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.... But to say that C1 "ignores" this because it's not done the way you personally (and some small group of users here and on the P1 forum) would prefer, and making the issue so vitriolic (at least that's how it reads in the written word) is... well, silly and counter productive.


Doug,

You can call it silly, but there is one fact that you can't change: C1 is NOT intuitive (like most software out there). All we ask is to make it intuitive. That's based on common software UI and workflows. It's not what a "small group" wants. It's what's expected from using countless other software programs.

And 40% accepted it, it's a nice way of saying that they deal with the way it works because they like the output, not because it makes sense the way it works. And probably part of the other 40% that love it is because they hire people to do it for them Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2013, 06:04:36 PM »
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A little perspective

I remember trialing LR, Aperture and C1 some years ago when I discovered raw - kodak proback, SLRn or maybe D100

I remember LR and Aperture 'eating' my files - as does itunes, Iphoto and also FCPx (im now doing video)

The USP at that time (2003??) to me of C1 was that it did not 'eat' my files,

And really with 'sessions' it does not 'eat' them either.

Now im up and running im having exactly the same experience as I did with 5 or 6 or whatever I was using.

-----

Looking to the future (or my future at least) I can see that there is possibly a 'sea change' in workflow coming my/our way that may 'force' me to move  forward in workflow.

Early RAW was basically WB and Exposure comp - if this was lost when the file was revisited in the future doing it again was not a problem

I can see (and have been considering this over the day) that the 'EDL' 'Edit Decisions' made in modern raw processors can be significant work and one would not want to lose that data - so correct management of same comes to the fore.

Im also studying video post a little where a colourist may work on footage at a seperate location and then just send the meta data he has created back to the client to affix to their copy of the footage

I see a similar thing with stills in the future - I have one client we shoot in the studio and she leaves with an HD of all images after waiting for me to do basic post - now it would be interesting for her leave instantly with a copy of the raws and for me to e-mail her the colour settings later in the day

Again web speeds are opening to work on images hosted in the cloud or office server by a remote colourist (probably me) - again in such a situation one can see that a more solid approach to handling the images/data comes to the fore.

Interesting times.
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2013, 07:47:56 AM »
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David, I have also voiced similar complaints to you about Sessions. What you describe as a workflow here may "work", but it is obviously a workaround, a kludge, that allows you to make nice with the Sessions-based architecture of the program so you can go and try to produce work. It is completely non-intuitive. The best software is software that allows you to work intuitively, and the Sessions concept is anything but intuitive. I don't expect you to admit it in a public forum as you work for Phase now, but Phocus was, in my experience, a far more user friendly program than Capture One. Not better in terms of results, but better in terms of ease of use.
You make a great processing engine with some excellent tools. Why make it so difficult for most of us to use them? There are millions of potential users of DSLRs out there who are shooting raws that might love the results that they would get with Capture One 7. Do they need Sessions? I cannot imagine that it is anything other than a huge PIA for them. They may also not be interested in using the Phase One catalog alternative (which by many accounts is not ready for prime time). They may already have a catalog in Lightroom. 


Its not a work around or a kludge at all and used successfully by many of our customers.    I agree Sessions was born out of the studio so may be more applicable to tethered shooting, hence introducing Catalogs for our customers who don't always work in the studio and don't want job - to - job image management but a complete overview of their Photographic work.

I think we have a great Catalog solution.  There are more options that Lightroom or Aperture for example (Shared Catalogs, working with multiple catalogs, storing images inside the Catalog (like Aperture) or referenced images (like Lightroom).

Yes, it is very likely a potential customer may already have a Lightroom catalog, but you can simply point Capture One to your existing system folder structure and import.  You could even bring over meta data and ratings with the help of .xmp files.  Settings of course would not be possible.

I will also say that we can improve on our Catalog implementation and will continue to do so.

D

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