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Author Topic: Question regarding Hasselblad Sensors  (Read 8359 times)
FredBGG
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« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2013, 11:37:11 PM »
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Getting back to the technical discussion one should also
consider the image quality impact of using the HTS1.5

Being a tele-converter and having to work with a range of lenses
it cannot be optimized for them all.

Also we all know that a tele-converter impacts both resolution and to a lesser extent contrast.

Here is the difference in quality between the HC100 and the HC100 with the HTS.
This is the graphs from Hasselblad, so they are comparable as they are made by the same company.



There is a significant drop in quality.
The drop in quality will be even more apparent due to shifting bringing in the lower quality
part of the image circle.

Considering the price of the combination of the HTS and lens
it way be a better choice to go with a tech camera if an SLR viewfinder is not a necessity.
Lenses designed specifically from the ground up as tilt shift lenses will
have better quality than a normal lens retrofitted with an adapter.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:50:39 PM by FredBGG » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2013, 11:45:48 PM »
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Hi,

Well, Fred's information may be good and perfectly valid, even if the information is not what the OP has asked for.

Also, the Hasselblad / Nikon comparison he refers to is quite valid. Not often a guy gets two cameras and makes a really good comparison shots and posts raw images for evaluation. Obviously, the OP was asking about Hasselblad backs, but still, pointing to an alternative at a fifth of the price would be seen as worthwhile.

I also would say it's OK to discuss the working of TS and OK to mention the Fuji as an alternative.

Some posters appreciate Fred's writing, and he quite often offers good advice.

Best regards
Erik



Perhaps it would be simply better if someone who never uses the gear not to post as if he does.  It's actually an attack on the visitors who come to Lula for good, sound information.

And I hardly think Ed is "attacking" Fred. 

Thank you,
Jeffery
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yaya
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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2013, 02:34:12 AM »
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Quote
I also would say it's OK to discuss the working of TS and OK to mention the Fuji as an alternative.
Erik what makes you think the Fuji is an worthy alternative for the OP?
Have you tried it outdoors with a digital back? Do you know what the widest lens on it is with a DB? Can it be compared to a Hasselblad with a 24mm and 1.5x converter? Are there any MTF charts of it available, also when shifted? How is the weather sealing on it? (Or was that another thread...they all get mixed up these days....)
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torger
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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2013, 03:48:00 AM »
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The Hasselblad TS-adapter is kind of cool, enlarge the image circle using a tele-converter and then use it for tilting and shifting. However it comes at a price of image quality, which perhaps is not so fun to pay when invested in medium format. I'm not sure exactly how large this image quality hit is though, haven't seen any samples.

The famous Swedish landscape photographer Hans Strand has used the TS adapter a lot in his work, so it cannot be too bad. (He uses a D800E quite a lot these days too as it's a practical camera, although he still thinks the 'blad has superior image quality.)

To be able to do everything with one system can be valuable, but when having a digital back I would myself look into the option to have a technical camera for the landscape and architecture work, the image quality of the lenses of the Schneider Digitars or Rodenstock Digarons is just better for this kind of work, and I think it's great fun to use a tech cam compared to an SLR type of camera. It would be more expensive with an additional system though, so starting off with a TS adapter could be the best choice.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2013, 04:01:22 AM »
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Erik what makes you think the Fuji is an worthy alternative for the OP?
Have you tried it outdoors with a digital back? Do you know what the widest lens on it is with a DB? Can it be compared to a Hasselblad with a 24mm and 1.5x converter? Are there any MTF charts of it available, also when shifted? How is the weather sealing on it? (Or was that another thread...they all get mixed up these days....)

LEt me point out that I did not recommend the Fuji gx680 as an alternative for the OP. I brought it up to explain why I found the HTS limited in some ways.

Anyway to answer your questions...

Have you tried it outdoors with a digital back?
It is usable on location with a digital back. The kapture group control box runs on a 9v battery.
The whole lot is significantly heavier than modern MFD cameras.

Do you know what the widest lens on it is with a DB?
The widest lens is the 50mm 5.6. With the HTS the 24mm becomes a 36mm 7.4.
However the Fuji can be used with the kapture group stitch back and a digital back giving it a wider angle of view
than the hasselblad 's 36mm with the HTS. However shifting is a bit limited on the Fuji with the 50mm compared to the 65mm.

How is the weather sealing on it?
No weather sealing claims are made by Fuji for the gx680. However the lenses are pretty much sealed as they do not have a focusing mechanism.
The focusing is on the body.

Are there any MTF charts of it available, also when shifted?
No MTF graphs that I know of. However here is an example of a full vertical shift with the 250mm.




(Focus is on the tip of the nose.)

Readers should keep in mind that this is from a full frame.

Also to be considered is that with the Kapture group stitch adapter but shooting single frame one can obtain more shift than with the HTS 1.5 or the Schneider for Mamiya Phase.

Price wise the Fuji GX680 can be found at very good prices. About $1,200 would buy a 65mm and body.

The icing on the cake is that it also shoots 6x8 film for those that still like film.





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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2013, 06:20:38 AM »
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Hi,

So you think it is not OK diskuss the working of TS and it is not OK to mention the Fuji as an alternative?

I don't think the information is not valid, as long as you can mount a digital back on the Fuji, which I suppose you can?

There will naturally be a crop factor, but that will also be the case with the HTC. The MTF curves he shows are probably coming from Hasselblad.

If the OP does not find the information interesting he or she can just skip.

I have seen quite a few posts appreciating Fred's postings. He points to another side of the coin. Would he violate forum rules to much he would be excluded, but it seems no need is seen for that.

Also, Fred is an experienced photographer and he has quite a few useful postings. It seems that he decided not to buy MFD although he states to use rental equipment.

Regarding the Fuji I have not checked widest angle available nor MTF, but it depends on the intended use. If you need tilt/shift on wide angles a technical camera seems to make the most sense to me.

Best regards
Erik

Quote
I also would say it's OK to discuss the working of TS and OK to mention the Fuji as an alternative.


Erik what makes you think the Fuji is an worthy alternative for the OP?
Have you tried it outdoors with a digital back? Do you know what the widest lens on it is with a DB? Can it be compared to a Hasselblad with a 24mm and 1.5x converter? Are there any MTF charts of it available, also when shifted? How is the weather sealing on it? (Or was that another thread...they all get mixed up these days....)
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Ken R
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« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2013, 07:17:56 AM »
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to the sensors:
Hasselblad-Imacon dont produce sensors, only Kodak and Dalsa. The kamera update has nothing to do with the sensor, it does no matter if you get H3d50, H4d50 or H5d 50- you will allways get the same sensor and the same picture quality. Only same camera functions are added,
if you really need it is allways the question.

Thanks. So basically the 40MP Sensor in the 645D, the H4D-40 and the H5D-40 is the same KAF-40000 made my TrueSense (Kodak). The Leica S2 has a modified version of this sensor right? And the H4D-50 and the H5D-50 use the KAF-50100. I guess the components around the sensor on each camera can be upgraded and change the performance of the camera bit.

Also, seems Phase One almost works exclusively with Dalsa sensors now. The detail of the IQ180 and now the iQ260 is stunning. But at nearly $40k each they are way out of my price range.

I do want to make 40x60in prints (or 40x50) (used to use 6x7 film for that) and I did some test prints with raw files from the 645D and they looked real nice. The color in the shadow areas was super smooth with little noise and with good detail. The h4D-40 files were similar but had a touch more noise in the shadows and at longer exposures (and/or higher iso's). The 645D looked like a better performer as the exposure time and iso increases. I tested the Nikon D800E with the best wide angles I could find (Zeiss 15mm zf.2, 14-24mm Nikon and the 24mm PC-E) and image quality was really good also. The 645D images seemed that they had a touch smoother gradations and a hair higher res, they seemed less harsh and easier to make big. Its close though. (link to my test of the D800E: LINK
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2013, 08:25:12 AM »
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Also, seems Phase One almost works exclusively with Dalsa sensors now. The detail of the IQ180 and now the iQ260 is stunning. But at nearly $40k each they are way out of my price range.

I do want to make 40x60in prints (or 40x50) (used to use 6x7 film for that) and I did some test prints with raw files from the 645D and they looked real nice.

Print quality is often very much a relative game. That is, the first 40mp large print I ever saw was the best digital print I'd ever seen and it blew me away. After seeing an 80mp large print the 40mp immediately looked less impressive (though obviously still very good, and far ahead of 22mp prints from before it).

One could take several equally-valid conclusions from this:
- don't ever look at a very sharp 80mp image; you won't know what you're missing and you'll be happier for it
- look into a tech camera where you can do a very easy two-shot stitch inside the image circle (lens static, back shifted left/right or up/down) resulting in a flat file of around 1.8x the resolution while maintaining the ability to compose in the field. This turns a 40mp back into a 70mp back (or higher if you don't mind doing, and your situation allows, three or four frame stitches which are supported on some of the large-image-circle lenses like the Schneider 60XL)
- the 40mp print looks great when viewed by itself, so why worry??

Notably the Leaf Aptus II 12 and Phase One P65+ are 60mp and 80mp and share sensors with the IQ160 and IQ180 at a fraction of the price. They are also relatively common in pre-owned digital back inventories with warranty and sometimes even very low shot-count/use (we have one with less than 1k shots in nearly new condition which was loaned to an IQ160 purchaser while waiting for their IQ to be delivered).
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 08:26:46 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2013, 10:50:04 AM »
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Thanks. So basically the 40MP Sensor in the 645D, the H4D-40 and the H5D-40 is the same KAF-40000 made my TrueSense (Kodak). The Leica S2 has a modified version of this sensor right? And the H4D-50 and the H5D-50 use the KAF-50100. I guess the components around the sensor on each camera can be upgraded and change the performance of the camera bit.

Also, seems Phase One almost works exclusively with Dalsa sensors now. The detail of the IQ180 and now the iQ260 is stunning. But at nearly $40k each they are way out of my price range.

I do want to make 40x60in prints (or 40x50) (used to use 6x7 film for that) and I did some test prints with raw files from the 645D and they looked real nice. The color in the shadow areas was super smooth with little noise and with good detail. The h4D-40 files were similar but had a touch more noise in the shadows and at longer exposures (and/or higher iso's). The 645D looked like a better performer as the exposure time and iso increases. I tested the Nikon D800E with the best wide angles I could find (Zeiss 15mm zf.2, 14-24mm Nikon and the 24mm PC-E) and image quality was really good also. The 645D images seemed that they had a touch smoother gradations and a hair higher res, they seemed less harsh and easier to make big. Its close though. (link to my test of the D800E: LINK

In Phase anything 39mpx and lower is a Kodak sensor and anything 40 mpx and above is made by Dalsa. Now there are a couple different Dalsa sensors being used today.

Hassy is all Kodak except for the there 60 mpx back which is Dalsa. Going from memory on Hassy

I believe Leica S is the same sensor tech as the H50 back but need to double check that one.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2013, 11:24:27 AM »
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- look into a tech camera where you can do a very easy two-shot stitch inside the image circle (lens static, back shifted left/right or up/down) resulting in a flat file of around 1.8x the resolution while maintaining the ability to compose in the field. This turns a 40mp back into a 70mp back (or higher if you don't mind doing, and your situation allows, three or four frame stitches which are supported on some of the large-image-circle lenses like the Schneider 60XL)
- the 40mp print looks great when viewed by itself, so why worry??


Stitching opens up many possibilities.

An interesting option is the new camera from fotodiox using the best 24MP NEX camera as a stitching back.





It has a ground glass screen for focusing and state of the art live view for fine focus.

Here is a 140MP shot.

http://fotodioxpro.com/RhinoCam_Images/RhinoCam_Wrigley.jpg

They have one in the works for Nikon and Canon cameras.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 11:39:57 AM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2013, 11:34:20 AM »
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I do want to make 40x60in prints (or 40x50) (used to use 6x7 film for that) and I did some test prints with raw files from the 645D and they looked real nice. The color in the shadow areas was super smooth with little noise and with good detail. The h4D-40 files were similar but had a touch more noise in the shadows and at longer exposures (and/or higher iso's). The 645D looked like a better performer as the exposure time and iso increases. I tested the Nikon D800E with the best wide angles I could find (Zeiss 15mm zf.2, 14-24mm Nikon and the 24mm PC-E) and image quality was really good also. The 645D images seemed that they had a touch smoother gradations and a hair higher res, they seemed less harsh and easier to make big. Its close though. (link to my test of the D800E: LINK

The difference between D800e and a 40MP MF cameras is as you saw quite small. Pretty much equivalent and if anything it is really quite difficult to see any difference.
Often the differences seen are processing dependent. I have found that the most natural results (less harsh) are obtained using Nikons Raw converter.

Have you seen this test comparing the IQ180 to the D800E

http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/

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Ken R
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« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2013, 11:52:07 AM »
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Great info! Thx!

Yeah, the P65+ seems like a good value right now and excellent for landscape and architecture. I saw few in use during my visit to a several of the premier landscape locations in Colorado this past fall. I saw one person using a Hasselblad H D series and one using a 645DF I believe with a Phase back. The D800 and D800E were popular but most people were shooting Canon. The scenes I shot really stretch the capabilities of any camera. I was at the limit and past with my Canon 5D3. I dealt with most situations using ND grads and multiple exposures and used Canon's best lenses at optimum apertures and as close to perfect technique as I could do. 2 things I wished more of were, dynamic range / clean deep shadows and resolution (actually not a lot more for 20x30in prints but significantly more for 40x60's). Honestly I think I did as good as you can do with the 5D3.

Here are a few samples (Photo Icon Warning!)



« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 11:54:06 AM by Ken R » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2013, 12:16:10 PM »
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The photograph of the stream is very nice.

One thing for sure whatever you end up getting you'll make it shine.

You have a firm grasp of technique. I think you would grasp advanced stitching very well
regardless of the format you use.

I have a friend who took the direction of stitching and single 36MP shots. He does magnificent stitches.
He still shoots with a Canon 7D and does two exposure HDR that he uses subtly and obtains all the dynamic range in the world.
I have seen his 40x120 prints. They are unmatched by any single shot prints.
He only shoots single shots for fast changing light.

Both of the examples you showed could be done with stitching.
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Ken R
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« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2013, 12:23:08 PM »
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Thx!

I have done some stitching in the past and I agree, its great for some situations. I prefer single Image capture and need for a lot of things so I need a high quality file. I also like the 4:3 ratio of the MFD sensors. Plus its really nice for doing horizontal stitching. With 35mm DSLR its best to go vertical when stitching, ditto with a Camera like the RED Scarlet/Epic. (Which ive used for motion work and has amazing dynamic range)
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2013, 01:28:57 PM »
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Hi,

Just to make it clear, I'm just a bystander. I'm shooting Sony Alpha. In a previous life I was shooting Pentax 67, almost exclusively on Velvia. Did consider MFD a couple of times but always decided against it.

What I would like to mention is that my experience is that my Sony Alphas match Pentax 67 for image quality, so I would expect that you should be able to achieve similar image quality from your Canon 5DIII as from Velvia 67.

Michael Reichmann wrote about this: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/shootout.shtml and my experience is similar:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/59-sony-alpha-900-vs-67-analogue-round-2
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/16-pentax67velvia-vs-sony-alpha-900

An excellent study by Tim Parkins may give different results: http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/

You obviously feel that a 20+ MP SLR does not fulfill your needs, it would be nice if you shared your experience.

My guess is that 40 MP 645 DSLRs would have a small benefit in sharpness and perhaps in tonality. The larger format makes lesser demand on lens and collect more photons, the latter factor would reduce midtone and highlight noise.

I have made a small write up on MFD, much based on simple physics and sample raws published by some very decent posters on the net. Two owners of IQ 180s and D800E felt that my article was good, and Tim Parkin also found it to be a good read. It is here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts

In general, I would consider the needs you have. If you need wide angles, crop factor would be a major concern.

I could mention, that my major interest would probably be a Hartblei HCam, with a Phase One back. Stefan Steib, the man behind Hartblei recommended the P45+, but Hartblei can fit anything to anything. That said, it seems that Hasselblads can be available at attractive prices.

Best regards
Erik




...

I do want to make 40x60in prints (or 40x50) (used to use 6x7 film for that) and I did some test prints with raw files from the 645D and they looked real nice.
....
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 11:49:38 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2013, 02:10:11 PM »
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Thx!

I have done some stitching in the past and I agree, its great for some situations. I prefer single Image capture and need for a lot of things so I need a high quality file. I also like the 4:3 ratio of the MFD sensors. Plus its really nice for doing horizontal stitching. With 35mm DSLR its best to go vertical when stitching, ditto with a Camera like the RED Scarlet/Epic. (Which ive used for motion work and has amazing dynamic range)

The clearest case for a P65, IQ160 or IQ180 is the need for single shot high quality and 40x60 prints. Also if you use one of them with this and a 4x5 view camera for rectilinear stitching (really easy stitching) the results are phenomenal
and allow for filtering as well as independent tilt shift.



http://kapturegroup.com/quad/quad.html
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kdphotography
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« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »
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The clearest case for a P65, IQ160 or IQ180 is the need for single shot high quality and 40x60 prints. Also if you use one of them with this and a 4x5 view camera for rectilinear stitching (really easy stitching) the results are phenomenal
and allow for filtering as well as independent tilt shift.



http://kapturegroup.com/quad/quad.html

Have you used the Kapture Group Quad Stitch?  P65+, IQ160 or IQ180 with the Quadstitch?
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