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Author Topic: Help please with MF Choices  (Read 7474 times)
kdphotography
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« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2013, 09:50:54 AM »
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I'm more apt to call it quits because of the elements before any of the current medium format digital offerings...   Grin
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tsjanik
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« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2013, 09:56:37 AM »
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I'm not saying "weather resistance" isn't a good idea.  Nor should it be assumed that because it isn't marketed as such that protection from the elements hasn't been included in the design of the equipment.  Phase One MFDBs are built well to operate in the extremes.  If anything, they are over-engineered.  And aside from the errant marketing of an elephant stepping on a Phase MFDB  Grin, they have an established history of photographers using Phase MFDBs successfully under all conditions.  Failure to work because of the elements isn't a shortcoming of Phase One.  It just works.

Ken:

I've never used a Phase one, but I've seen enough of your posts to accept your word on how well they are built. 
Although weather sealing isn't essential, I disagree that it can be dismissed as marketing hype (not directed at you, but I have seen it stated).  I have been driving for years and have yet to need my seat belt or air bag, but I'm glad I have them.

Here's quote from another forum (link below) describing an experience with the 645D and the 35mm A (old lens, not sealed):

"Well, today there is a heavy wet snow that made things rather interesting. I have used this camera in all kinds of weather. Hot, cold, wet and snow. Today was my first real test though. Slipped and fell into a muddy, gooey, icy creek and dunked the camera but good!. Although really pissed, wet, cold and mud encrusted ( both me and the camera), I shook the camera off and took it the nearest place to rinse the mud off. Well, the camera is fine, but the 35A did not fair as well. The lens will need professional cleaning to get the silt out of the focus mechanism. BUT, that camera is just bullet proof! I continued to photograph with it and it works great. Can't say as much for the iPhone that was in my back pocket. Anyway, you can really use these things as very reliable tools. I just gotta be more careful! Ray"

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/217097-opinions-645d-general-use-2.html

Tom
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kdphotography
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« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2013, 07:10:36 PM »
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Ken:

I've never used a Phase one, but I've seen enough of your posts to accept your word on how well they are built.  
Although weather sealing isn't essential, I disagree that it can be dismissed as marketing hype (not directed at you, but I have seen it stated).  I have been driving for years and have yet to need my seat belt or air bag, but I'm glad I have them.

Here's quote from another forum (link below) describing an experience with the 645D and the 35mm A (old lens, not sealed):

"Well, today there is a heavy wet snow that made things rather interesting. I have used this camera in all kinds of weather. Hot, cold, wet and snow. Today was my first real test though. Slipped and fell into a muddy, gooey, icy creek and dunked the camera but good!. Although really pissed, wet, cold and mud encrusted ( both me and the camera), I shook the camera off and took it the nearest place to rinse the mud off. Well, the camera is fine, but the 35A did not fair as well. The lens will need professional cleaning to get the silt out of the focus mechanism. BUT, that camera is just bullet proof! I continued to photograph with it and it works great. Can't say as much for the iPhone that was in my back pocket. Anyway, you can really use these things as very reliable tools. I just gotta be more careful! Ray"

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/217097-opinions-645d-general-use-2.html

Tom

Tom, I agree with you completely.  Weather resistance/protection/build all have value, and I don't doubt the Pentax engineers did very well with the 645D.  But at the same time this doesn't mean that the Phase One is devoid of protection either.  Would I mind if Phase added in a few more gaskets?  No, of course not (they'd probably charge us another arm too Shocked)  But it also doesn't mean I'm going to forgo using common sense or that hotel shower cap and towel I keep in my pack either.  In other words, even if I had the Pentax 645D in my kit, I'd still treat it to a nice toweling and a shower cap.   Grin    

But what I do mind is that for whatever reason or personal bias that which seems to parallel obsessive compulsive regularity, takes "weather resistance" to an extreme making claims such as "weather sealing is not only about disaster prevention it is also about maintaining optimal image quality. Very fine dust creeps into non weather sealed lenses this can lead to a loss in sharpness and contrast as well as slowly degrading the precision of the mechanical parts that include LS, iris and focusing threads. The lenses pump back and forward moving this fine dust even into the body where it can get on the AF sensor and mirror mechanisms."

That's just silly. (Not you Tom, that's not your analysis either!  Wink)  And I seriously doubt this is what the Pentax 645D engineers had in mind when they talk weather resistance.  

ken
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 09:43:33 PM by kdphotography » Logged

tsjanik
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« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2013, 09:21:03 PM »
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...............................  In other words, even if I had the Pentax 645D in my kit, I'd still treat it to a nice toweling and a shower cap.   Grin 
......................ken

Agreed.   I have I have a zip lock bag Smiley ; you'll note in the photo I posted above, taken in a snowstorm, I used a K-5 (I can afford to risk it), not a 645D.

Tom
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FredBGG
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« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2013, 11:07:29 PM »
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KEn Doo I really don't understand why you have to contradict everything I write even if it's in favor of something.

Anyone with half a brain would understand that a camera without weather sealing is more prone to contamination of one sort or another.

Here is some info from a repair facility:

Quote
Sand can cause devastating effects on a camera.  
Sand gets deep inside and throughout the systems --- from the tape deck to the outer parts of the lens.  
When sand gets inside, it seriously affects moving parts.
This is usually signaled by grinding, grating and cranking in the manual and auto controls, lens and other mechanical parts.
If the sand has not caused permanent damage, tedious work and time is required to clean and restore the unit.

Quote
If you have sand contamination in your camera, it may be likely that there are also salt grains inside the camera.
Unfortunately salt can cause all of the damage mentioned earlier, and more. You can operate the camera with a sand incursion and live with annoying grinding sounds and malfunctions.
 However salt saturation is different.
It will lead to rust, corrosion, oxidation, decomposition and decay of electronics parts and printed boards.
Acting as a conductor, salt will sometimes short the circuits and cause many types of errors.

The more protection the better.
While I treat my cameras with respect and care when working it's a pain in the ass to be limited by having to pamper a camera.
It's also nice to avoid my assistants on location having to work overtime dusting out cameras.

People tout the advantage of being able to clean a MFDB sensor.. well if particulates are getting on the sensor there is more dust getting on other parts of a MFD SLR.
After all the sensor is behind the shutter for all but short exposure times.

If dust is getting in so it fine sea mist at the beach when it's windy, as are fine sand particles.

IF we consider how high the quality of a MFD camera is .. it's enough quality to satisfy customers for a long time. Avoiding particulate infiltration
will keep quality closer to what it's like when new.

THIS is the reason why many manufacturers put so much importance into weather sealing. And contrary to what Guy says it's not marketing BS.











No bullshit. The seals are there.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 11:13:21 PM by FredBGG » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2013, 11:29:06 PM »
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The main thing with weather sealing is piece of mind when the going gets tough.

It is like 4x4 for cars. A good driver will mostly be able to do without it, but many drivers will think twice before taking their 100,000 US$ BMW M5 up an icy col for sunrise.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2013, 11:58:26 PM »
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KEn Doo I really don't understand why you have to contradict everything I write even if it's in favor of something.

Anyone with half a brain would understand that a camera without weather sealing is more prone to contamination of one sort or another.

Here is some info from a repair facility:

The more protection the better.
While I treat my cameras with respect and care when working it's a pain in the ass to be limited by having to pamper a camera.
It's also nice to avoid my assistants on location having to work overtime dusting out cameras.

People tout the advantage of being able to clean a MFDB sensor.. well if particulates are getting on the sensor there is more dust getting on other parts of a MFD SLR.
After all the sensor is behind the shutter for all but short exposure times.

If dust is getting in so it fine sea mist at the beach when it's windy, as are fine sand particles.

IF we consider how high the quality of a MFD camera is .. it's enough quality to satisfy customers for a long time. Avoiding particulate infiltration
will keep quality closer to what it's like when new.

THIS is the reason why many manufacturers put so much importance into weather sealing. And contrary to what Guy says it's not marketing BS.











No bullshit. The seals are there.




Seriously this begs the question if weather sealing is important to you why in the hell would you be so stupid to buy into a phase system to begin with. Talk about contradiction

Btw you Nikon is not totally water sealed either . I own one and it has no chance in hell if I poured water on a few key areas. One for instance is your card slot door. What you have neglected here is water sippage . Water will get past just about everything . Having water sealing is a nice thing to have no one is saying any diffrent but it is also a marketing tool as well and you are paying for it. Sorry all these years and I live in the freaking desert have I ever had sand or water damage. I shot all over the world in many situations, guess that means shit along with all the Phase, leaf, Hassy and Sinar folks as well.  Guess if we listened to all that repair advice we should all send our cams in for sensor cleaning as well. Fred you speak of BS marketing from Leaf and Phase, but you neglected to mention all the BS marketing in the whole industry. The issue here is we as experienced photographers see past it all but the young and inexperienced fall for the same repair advice so the service centers can actually make a living. It's all around you get a freaking clue stop isolating MF as the bad guy. Canon/Nikon are just as happy to take your money with a smile on there face.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2013, 12:06:45 AM »
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The main thing with weather sealing is piece of mind when the going gets tough.

It is like 4x4 for cars. A good driver will mostly be able to do without it, but many drivers will think twice before taking their 100,000 US$ BMW M5 up an icy col for sunrise.

Cheers,
Bernard


Really give me the keys Ill drive it up in reverse. Bad analogy, this is gear we as working Pros will do just about anything with it if the gig is paying well to do it. This is about money and no one worth salt will go oh gee I can't do that job because I don't have weather sealing.

Weather sealing would never be better than good common sense. Drop it in the ocean , nothing will save it. LOL
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jerome_m
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« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2013, 03:20:02 AM »
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Weather sealing would never be better than good common sense. Drop it in the ocean , nothing will save it. LOL

Now seems just the right time to cite yesterday's news: camera lost in Hawaii washes up on Taiwan beach after 5 years (alternative).
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bcooter
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« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2013, 04:46:45 AM »
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I deliberitly dont read every person who  responds, so I don't know where this weather sealing thing came from, but I guess it's probably the usual "wonderful" attributes of 35mm, maybe even a nod to the Pentax  and saying traditional medium format is not as good, regardless of what the original thread's intent is.

That's seems to be all this forum has been about for what seems like forever.

Anyway, real life real use, my digital backs are not fragile.

I've used them in the summer in Brazil, Jamaica and Dallas (Jamaica won as even the strobes started blowing and we had to put duct tape over the open outlets) but I only had a slight issue with the leaf back, but it wasn't overheating, it was a bum cf card.   We still shot the gig with the Aptus.

This was Jamaica


I've used them in the winter in Moscow (twice), Seoul (twice), Chicago (3 times), New York (more times than I remember) and no issues.

I've shot them in the dust of El Mirage (that's dust) and in Brazil and Mexico.  Once in the Texas plains and man that's really dust.

In fact the only repair I've had on my digital cameras is two Nikon mounts came loose (dcs 760/F5) and D3.   Lost 4 shutters on Canon 1 series cameras and one sensor.

My Phase backs have gone around the world twice and never gone in for repair.  My Contax for 2 repairs, both shutter related, both user error where someone put a thumb through the rear curtain.

My Aptus went in twice once for a bad lcd and once for a digital board, both fixed and returned in three days, door to door.

Shooting an ad series north of miami, with our p30+ I got hit by a wave that submerged me, moved me at least 5 feet and slammed me into the reef, I was completely wet head to toe and we dried the camera Phase/Contax off and kept shooting.  I used the camera 6 minutes later and still use them today.

This was about 15 seconds before the big wave hit me.


Now I'm not claiming it's weather sealed but I do know my digital backs are reliable and very, very strong and I sure as hell don't baby them.

In fairness I've shot a trillion more frames with the Canons than medium format, but I don't think 35mm is one bit tougher than the medium format backs.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:51:40 AM by bcooter » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2013, 05:09:07 AM »
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I know the P series well. Owned a P25. Built like a little tank.

However it is far from weather sealed. Just one look at the memory card slot.
The cover doesn't even have a latch on it and it's just a metal flap without any seal at all.
The front that mounts on the camera has no seal protecting the spring loaded contacts, however the sensor cover that comes with the back
 tp keep the sensor covered when it's off the camera does have a seal to keep the sensor clean.

Submerged in a salt water wave that overwhelmed a photographer slamming him into a reef........
Anyone who has surfed knows that a wave like that will push water and the fine sand in the surf into every little hole, nook and cranny.

Just take a look at the memory card slot and cover on a P series back and then envision this:

Shooting an ad series north of miami, with our p30+ I got hit by a wave that submerged me, moved me at least 5 feet and slammed me into the reef, I was completely wet head to toe and we dried the camera Phase/Contax off and kept shooting.  I used the camera 6 minutes later and still use them today.

Submerged, dragged 5 feet in a crashing wave full of the fine sand and slammed into a reef.... and no water got in.

If both did survive this it can only be attributed to a very large dose of good luck....

I know the Contax 645. It's not weather sealed. Just looking at the prism. It has no seal.



Not to mention contacts very close to the seperation of body and prism.


« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 05:13:39 PM by FredBGG » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2013, 07:56:34 AM »
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BC you're lucky Phase don't use tape anymore in their camera as you could have lost all those Cyndi Lauper tracks....
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« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2013, 08:07:21 AM »
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Fred, do you ever change lenses on location?  If so, how? 

And please dont tell me you use a zoom lens.  For someone that is so hell bent on IQ and explaining why the Nikon sensor out performs any MF sensor, if I found out you used a zoom instead of primes, I think I would vomit.
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kdphotography
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« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2013, 08:33:00 AM »
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The problem is Fred, you're so entrenched in your personal bias that you're unable to accept any other position.  Your way is the only rational way.  I'd tell you to re-read my posts, but you'd fail to grasp any understanding.  You simply like to argue----a most argumentative person that's gotta have the last google word.  I notice you also like to go back into your old posts to either change context or take another dig.  The point being here is that you've got a lot of actual users of MFDBs---users that have had their backs more than a few months; shot their MFDBs more than 562 frames; actually figured out how to use the system; and, *egads* if they had any problems knew they could call a dealer for help because they knew that Ebay isn't a certified dealer. 

And no one has reported problems attributed to "weather sealing."

And again, go back and read s-l-o-w-l-y, I'm not saying weather resistance isn't a good thing, it is.  But it doesn't mean throw caution to the wind.  It still means using a bit of common sense, imo.

 Kiss ken

p.s.  How do you like the weather sealing in your old Fuji GX680?  I'm sure with the lack of weather seals the dust must be pouring out like sand and the loss in sharpness and contrast must be horrible...   Roll Eyes  (that's sarcasm btw)
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« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2013, 12:25:02 PM »
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Ken - you should know by know not to argue with a person who has his mind set and his head in the sand.  I will say it's strange that for someone who has repeatedly trashed one camera manufacture's advertizing claims as being false and misleading is now drinking the Kool-Aid over seals and weather-sealing; unless there's more than the normal amount of Googling going on and he's actually stripped a body.....
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bcooter
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« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2013, 12:55:27 PM »
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You really can't carry on any conversation here without it becoming an argument about cameras.

This nice Forum has become DP review with google links.

Nobody can ask a simple question of why would someone buy a Pentax or a Hasselblad, because nearly EVERY conversation is moved towards any reason to diss certain brands and formats.

I don't care about the Nikon, I'll bet you Phase One doesn't care about the Nikon and I think Fred is the only person that thinks the Nikon is a 100% replacement for his briefly owned medium format camera and back.

What I've learned is there is no reason to post anything anymore because it's going to be hijacked or get in a pissing match where someone calls you a liar.

It's silly high school stuff that I file under "who gives a shit".

What I've come to realize is Fred and I are not in the same business.

We both own cameras but that where the similarity stops.

I'm in the get up in the morning, take a dozen e-mails from clients, then bust ass in the photography business for about 15 hours to make 100% of our household income. (This statement only works is you say it real fast).

I don't have any idea what money making enterprise Fred is in.

I know I've used all my cameras in all kind of conditions and if something breaks I figure that's the price of doing biz and though I send my cameras in to have them checked out, I don't baby them, wrap them in plastic, or treat them like fine china.  

Still the key statement is I've used all formats for a long time in all conditions.

This was shot in controlled conditions with the (gasp) p30+ and  water was everywhere.  Other than cleaning the lens from time to time, nothing else was done, the camera didn't break, black helicopters didn't attack.



All I know is lately this place has become zero fun.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 01:38:17 PM by bcooter » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2013, 01:15:04 PM »
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All I know is lately this place has become zero fun.

IMO

BC
sadly that's true...
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Don Libby
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« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2013, 01:15:16 PM »
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In my mind there's a difference between weather-resistant, weather-proof and waterproof.  

The question I ask myself when shooting landscape is to what degree of weather am I capable of shooting and a, get the image, b, be safe at the time and c, do it without damaging my equipment.  In almost every case I gave up way before my equipment did either from the sweat poring into my eyes or loosing feeling in my fingers from the cold.

I've shot at the beach a couple feet from the surf where I could feel the spray hitting me and the camera.  The camera body (a Mamiya 645) got dripping wet as did the lens I was using.  My glasses were so wet that at one point I couldn't see out of them.  I ended up draping a towel over the body and lens and had no trouble what so ever.  The only problem I had that day was dropping the camera and head still attached off the tripod shoulder height (remember I'm 6-9) onto the sandy beach on the way out.  Sand was everywhere.  After I cleaned everything up and found the reason for the tripod failure I cleaned my underwear and kept shooting.

I've said this before however will repeat it one more time.  I am primarily a landscape/nature photographer which means my "studio" is outdoors in the elements.  I shoot in all types of weather and environments from hot, windy, sandy Death Valley to hot humidity in the Everglades and over to extremely cold, windy snowy Grand Canyon, Yellowstone and Jackson Hole WY.  I've shot at a base of a waterfall in Yosemite where the lens was totally wet; the only environment I haven't shot in is underwater.   My primary gear includes a Phase DF with prime lens and a Cambo WRS tech camera both connected to a Phase One digital back.

Cooter responded as I was writing this -

BC - I totally agree with everything you've stated. This site has gotten to the point that I ask myself why should I continue then I remember the bullies in high-school and remember that bullies need to be put in their place. Keep banging that drum bud!
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2013, 01:23:53 PM »
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Man that was a mouthful and so true it's scary. Seriously its hard for those looking to jump in to MF to get a full story from experienced users that work with them daily without being getting side tracked or inundated by 35mm brands specifically the D800 in these conversations. I make it a point not to speak of systems I don't own or have used extensively in the field. I miss my Phase gear , I really do. The Nikons are nice and they get the job done , with work I may add. But I still love MF and if I have a bias its that I like shooting the best image maker I can get my hands on and may ad with all the limitations perceived or real that go with it. I'm just about to meet a new client with a huge ad campaign and shit I wish I still had my Phase gear to turn too. Sure ill do a great job, get paid well but ill walk away less artistically satisfied that I did not shoot MF on it. Frankly that's the real bottom line. It's about satisfying my art my reputation and my business. Everything else means shit.

Oops Don posted before me . I was agreeing with BC comments.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 01:27:12 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2013, 01:31:55 PM »
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What a refreshing idea, speaking from actually long term experience rather than short term testing/googling.....
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