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Author Topic: Switched to Chromata from Sunset Select  (Read 3952 times)
Kanvas Keepsakes
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« on: March 29, 2013, 09:52:21 PM »
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Well I've been using LJ's Sunset Select Matte canvas and found out it uses OBA's.  I since switched from that to BC's Chromata White.  I already got the hang of spraying using LJ's satin coating.  One heavy coat and I'm good to go.  No cracking.  Folds easily.  I got BC's Chromata yesterday, did some prints, and sprayed like normal.  Stretched two canvas prints a while ago and cracks on the straight folds when I fold my corners.  AGH!! I thought I was over this issue.  Is it that LJ's product doesnt work well with BC's canvas?  Now I have to spray more since Chromata seems to be a lot thicker of a canvas??  Any suggestions?
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MHMG
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2013, 10:00:06 PM »
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Hard to say about the cracking issues, but just for the record BC Chromata White also contains OBAs, albeit not as much as the Lexjet Sunset canvas.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardbenburg-imaging.com
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Kanvas Keepsakes
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2013, 10:49:25 PM »
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WHAT!  So the sales guy lied!  He said "Well yeah there's a $100 difference because they use OBA's and Chromata is OBA free" . . . Ughhhh . . . I'm gonna try putting two big coats to see what the difference is
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MHMG
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2013, 11:30:08 PM »
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WHAT!  So the sales guy lied!...

Yikes, that would be a first Cheesy. That said, if media white point stability and durability over time is a concern you probably are better off with BC Chromata White than Lexjet Sunset canvas due to lower (but not zero) OBA content.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 11:35:32 PM by MHMG » Logged
Kanvas Keepsakes
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2013, 11:55:33 PM »
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I've been doing this for over a year now!  I like to think that I have this process down pat. I guess not.   I go by months with no cracking then all of a sudden cracking again.  Ugh
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 12:04:44 AM »
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Hard to say about the cracking issues, but just for the record BC Chromata White also contains OBAs, albeit not as much as the Lexjet Sunset canvas.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardbenburg-imaging.com

Interesting.  This is pasted from their website ...

DESCRIPTION
19 MIL, 450GSM MATTE POLY-COTTON INKJET CANVAS. ARCHIVAL CERTIFIED, OBA-FREE
Chromata White Canvas is a textured 19 mil bright white, consistent poly-cotton blend matte canvas using an acid-free, neutral pH coating. Released in 2005, Chromata White was the first ever OBA-free canvas to hit the market and it has since revolutionized the giclee printing industry. 
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kdphotography
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 10:22:09 AM »
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BC Lyve is the higher end canvas and also listed as OBA-free.  There is a difference in canvas quality with regard to OBAs, imo.

Usually cracking on the edges from stretching reflects not coating the canvas adequately.  I use BC's Glamour II applied by HVLP.  No issues with cracking when stretching.  I'm not familiar with LJ's coating, but if you need to dilute the solution, your ratio of dilution and mixing can also effect the protection/coverage on the canvas with regard to cracking when stretching.  Hope that helps!

ken
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MHMG
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 12:31:03 PM »
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Interesting.  This is pasted from their website ...

DESCRIPTION
19 MIL, 450GSM MATTE POLY-COTTON INKJET CANVAS. ARCHIVAL CERTIFIED, OBA-FREE
Chromata White Canvas is a textured 19 mil bright white, consistent poly-cotton blend matte canvas using an acid-free, neutral pH coating. Released in 2005, Chromata White was the first ever OBA-free canvas to hit the market and it has since revolutionized the giclee printing industry.  

I have seen two different lots of Chromata white canvas submitted by AaI&A members, circa 2009 production. The base canvas of both batches glows like crazy under backlight, so the product is definitely not 100% OBA free. However, the Cromata coating itself is indeed OBA free and opaque enough that the base canvas OBAs don't impart a lot of extra whitening. Some marketing folks at BC probably confused the benefit of an OBA-free ink receptor layer with the notion of an entirely OBA-free product.  It would be like Hahnemuhle claiming Photo rag is OBA free because the are no OBAs in the ink receptor layer yet they are there in the base sheet and impart a slight tweak to the viewing surface white point. Same situation with the Chromata Canvas.  In comparison, Lexjet Sunset matte definitely has high OBA content in the ink receptor coating plus if I recall correctly the base canvas as well. I don't have the Lexjet sample posted in the AaI&A database yet, but the OBA burnout in this sample was pronounced and has thus lowered the Conservation Display rating significantly.

Folks that are concerned with media whitepoint stability over time may want to check out ID#s 93 and 94 in the Aardenburg light fade database. Same batch of Chromata white canvas printed on same Epson with same OEM ink set, one sample with no additional varnish coat, the other varnished with ClearStar Clearshield Satin C. In the side-by-side light fastness test, the OBA burnout is very minor and really nothing to worry about. On the other hand, the varnish coat was actually more problematic depending on how fussy one is with media whitepoint and image highlight color accuracy over time.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 12:39:06 PM by MHMG » Logged
Kanvas Keepsakes
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 12:47:52 PM »
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Thanks for all the informative replies!  I love this board.  Hey KD, when I stretch and pull the canvas no cracking occurs.  It's only on the corner part where I actually fold a complete fold to fold in the corners.  Then I see a line of white.  I tried two heavy coats yesterday instead of one (opposite to what LJ techs told me) and seems to have held up a little better.  I haven't used Glamour II in quite a while but I think I might switch back to see what results I get.  I know Glamour II doesn't come in satin.  I hate the real glossy look. 
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kdphotography
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 01:14:31 PM »
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.... I know Glamour II doesn't come in satin.  I hate the real glossy look.  

Try cutting the Glamour II gloss a little with Glamour II matte.  I have a client that I specially mix a batch with about 1 part matte to 4 or 5 parts gloss (you really don't need much matte to cut the gloss down, so experiment here).  Mix it together, than cut that mixture with warm water to your desired ratio before spraying by HVLP.  If you want a true flat matte, I don't think anything beats the Timeless matte.

ken
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 01:24:25 PM by kdphotography » Logged

Paul2660
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 03:01:28 PM »
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I would also look at trying Breathing Color's Timeless.  I switched over from Glamour II over 2 years ago.  I was looking for a better glossy solution.  I feel that the coating is considerably more durable than Glamour II and has a better glossy look.  It dries much faster, in 15 minutes.    This also may help on your corner cracking as the Timeless coating is more pliable.  I have used it on Chromata White, Lyve, 800M and Crystalline.  Since you are trying different coatings, I would ask BC for a trial bottle of the Timeless in the solution you are looking for i.e. glossy, semi-glossy or matte.

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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Kanvas Keepsakes
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2013, 03:13:43 PM »
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Paul I was using Timeless for some time with not so satisfactory results.  Bubbles popping and making craters.  I'm going to try once again with Timeless see if I can figure out the issues I was having with it
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Paul2660
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2013, 03:33:40 PM »
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Were you spraying? or rolling.  I have never had any issues with Timeless when spraying it.  I know others have reported this.    With the Wagner Control Spray Plus (it's basically the same unit as the base wagner, but has a separate compressor and hose) I make two passes, one vertical, one horizontal, then let this dry about 20 minutes.  After that I will continue with horizontal passes till I get the coating where I want it. I let each coating dry 20min.  I spray with the canvas hung at an angle, about 35 degrees.   My only issue (which is a problem with all gloss coating) is getting a hot spot,  where the glossy is a bit heavier than the rest of the coating and this of course will show on the final print.  Hot spots are mainly due to human error, where you inadvertent let your hand get closer to the canvas briefly.  It's a common issue with all glossy coating processes. Since Glamour II self levels and is slower to dry, the issue happened less often for me.

One  other thing I have learned.  With Timeless, on a matte canvas, you need to let the canvas outgas for at least 24 hours.  If not the outgassing will definitely create bubbles.  On a glossy canvas, you can go straight to coating with no wait. 

Glamour II has a longer drying time and thus the bubbles don't form.  It's a bit more forgiving, but I prefer the look of Timeless.  It's an individual preference.

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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Kanvas Keepsakes
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2013, 03:54:40 PM »
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I'm taking notes Paul!  Thanks!
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mstevensphoto
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 12:15:18 PM »
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the only time I have issues with bubbles on my Lyve+timeless workflow is when I put down too heavy of a coat. BC will tell you to put down a substantial coat, enough to give a slightly milky appearance. I agree that you need a substantial coat, but every time I go too slow or my hvlp sprayer isn't well adjusted and it looks milky I get bubbles.

FYI a solution on bubbles, if you let it sit for a few minutes (basically long enough for the bubbles to develop) and then very lightly use your finger to pop them and then spray with another light coat, then let sit horizontally, the self leveling properties of timeless will pretty much take care of the issue. you can do a surprising amount of picking and poking while the gloss is wet and still have it dry as if not touched. of course if you touch it while tacky you're hosed.

while you do need to let your prints off/out gas, there is no way a print is generating enough gas to create bubbles in the 15 minutes it takes timeless to set. air passing through the canvas and the timeless settling in are much more likely culprits. I've often thought a light  suction vacuum table would be lovely for the times I spray too much on. just a quick suction to pull it into the canvas and done.

Mark
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Colorwave
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 12:36:05 PM »
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I was a regular Chromata White user who switched to Sunset Reserve Matte canvas when BC reworked their canvas and cracking became a major issue for me.  I am completely satisfied with the switch.  I also was using Timeless, and getting results that I was happy with, but have since switched to Sunset coatings, and am amazed at how much tougher and more forgiving they are.  I always had to be careful about spraying the Timeless too heavy with my HVLP gun, and have none of the same issues with Sunset.  No microbubbles, ever.

I'm currently about to test the new Ambrosia coating that is an acrylic urethane finish, and "Wilhelm Certified."  I have the product, but have yet to play with it and put it through the paces.  http://www.ambrosiacoatings.com
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MHMG
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 02:13:09 PM »
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I'm currently about to test the new Ambrosia coating that is an acrylic urethane finish, and "Wilhelm Certified."  I have the product, but have yet to play with it and put it through the paces.  http://www.ambrosiacoatings.com

I checked out your link to the Ambrosia site. Interesting... and proudly displaying the "Wilhelm Certified Product" label, but in following Ambrosia's subsequent link to the WIR website I lost the trail to the actual test results. Even googling the WIR site didn't turn up anything.  Ambrosia is now the second company I've run into where I can't corroborate any test results on the WIR website to back up the Wilhelm certification, what it means, and how it was validated for the product in question. What's up with that? Has anyone else had better luck finding the relevant test results on the WIR website?

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Colorwave
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 03:42:48 PM »
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Mark-
I put "Wilhelm Certified" in quotes for a reason.  I also visited the Wilhelm site and found nothing.  I asked their distributor, Alpha Strike Paper about it, and was told that there was no formal published evaluation.  I had a great conversation with the owner, but didn't get a fully satisfying response to the Wilhelm aspect.  He did say that it was impossible to test with all of the media combinations available to produce comprehensive test results for all cases, but that comes with the territory, and we all know that.  The question remains:  What did Henry test, and how was his certification obtained?  I love the fact that the material was tested by a third party, and his name certainly adds credibility to the product, but more info would be reassuring.  
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 03:48:51 PM by Colorwave » Logged

kdphotography
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2013, 03:45:12 PM »
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Better yet---where's the Aardenburg Imaging & Archives certification?

 Grin
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MHMG
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2013, 04:37:20 PM »
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Better yet---where's the Aardenburg Imaging & Archives certification?

 Grin

ROFLOL!  I doubt I will ever create a product "certification" program, but if I do the fine print will have to include the line from the original Superman Television series, i.e. "Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound"  Grin

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:41:00 PM by MHMG » Logged
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