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Author Topic: DSLR -> LFD: system questions  (Read 2543 times)
Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 05:24:38 AM »
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Ya Elliot. Really LCC's are not an issue. I personally find using the semi opaque card over the lens is useful for white balance, especially when there isn't a neutral tone in the scene (which can be quite often)
You are correct in saying you need to do one irrespective of lens movements or not, pano or not.

I don't use an electronic shutter myself. Just don't see the need for them.
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ejnewman
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 08:13:06 AM »
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So to conclude this thread: there is currently no way to control shutter and aperture with a LF system other than touching the lens or tethering to a laptop?

The Rollie electronic shutter might be an option, but does this limit the lens compatibility to just rollie lenses?
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torger
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 08:14:11 AM »
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Yes, surely I would only need to do 1 lens cast correction per focal length, per aperture? So lens cast is a problem even when no movements are required? I would hope this is only an issue with extremely wide lenses. I have my own raw workflow and shoot distortion grids and vignette profiles myself for each camera and lens combo I own, I guess I would calibrate the LC as part of my vignette correction.

I don't bother shooting white balance cards, it's flawed anyway and I tend to creatively control WB in post to my taste.

Was looking at the rollie electronic shutter - would this be something that can be used on any system or would it only work with rollie lenses?

Color cast is affected by focal length, aperture, shift and tilt. You need to use it from about 50mm and down, varies a bit depending on digital back and lens design. The new DHW shutter is a drop-in replacement for the mechanical Copal shutter (which is going out of production soon by the way) so it will work with Rodenstock and Schneider "large format digital" lenses. If you do vignette correction already and don't intend to do any movements (shift/tilt) then it will be no different from the current workflow.

The mirror slap problem can be worked around with a DSLR (shooting live view etc), so you should have some other strong reason to go MF. Stitching can be made very efficiently with a DSLR so but you can of course get more resolution with less shots with MF which may be a strong enough selling point. Maybe you can do single-row pano with MF but must do multi-row with DSLR to get the resolution you desire, that would be a great improvement of workflow.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »
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Yes, surely I would only need to do 1 lens cast correction per focal length, per aperture? So lens cast is a problem even when no movements are required? I would hope this is only an issue with extremely wide lenses. I have my own raw workflow and shoot distortion grids and vignette profiles myself for each camera and lens combo I own, I guess I would calibrate the LC as part of my vignette correction.

The LCC will replace your vignette correction routine.
The lack of any meaningful distortion on most tech camera lenses, even with moderate rise/fall will almost surely render your desire to shoot your own distortion grids moot.

I think you're carrying a lot of baggage of your current workflow into your search for a LFD kit. It's not a matter of if you can replicate your existing workflow, it's a matter of whether you can match/exceed your current results.

Rent, demo, evaluate, use a LFD kit for a few hours or a few days and see what workflows will make most sense if you adopt that equipment, and see what the results are with those workflows.
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yaya
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2013, 09:04:29 AM »
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So to conclude this thread: there is currently no way to control shutter and aperture with a LF system other than touching the lens or tethering to a laptop?

The Rollie electronic shutter might be an option, but does this limit the lens compatibility to just rollie lenses?

If you use the Rollei (with Rollei e-shutters), Schneider or Silvestri controllers (with Schneider shutters) or the Sinar/ Rodenstock iOS app (with Sinar/ Rodenstock shutters) you do not need to tether to a laptop.

BR
Yair
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2013, 10:13:37 AM »
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If you use the Rollei (with Rollei e-shutters), Schneider or Silvestri controllers (with Schneider shutters) or the Sinar/ Rodenstock iOS app (with Sinar/ Rodenstock shutters) you do not need to tether to a laptop.

BR
Yair

Yair, isn't the Schneider controller discontinued? We still have 1 or 2 on the shelf I think, but I don't think they are being sold by Schneider any longer. Please correct me if you know otherwise.

I've not used the Rollei e-shutter iOS app - is it 100% shipping and ready to go?
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yaya
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2013, 11:03:30 AM »
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Yair, isn't the Schneider controller discontinued? We still have 1 or 2 on the shelf I think, but I don't think they are being sold by Schneider any longer. Please correct me if you know otherwise.

I've not used the Rollei e-shutter iOS app - is it 100% shipping and ready to go?

I should clarify;

Rollei Control-S with e-shutters (made by DHW): This is the CURRENT model and it can run off of a NiMh battery with full control of the lens:



Schneider Shutter Control ES: It was manufactured by a 3rd party for Schneider and was recently discontinued. It can run on a battery and like the Rollei can drive the lens without tethering:



Silvestri DRCU (also now endorsed by Schneider): As the others it can also run on battery: http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti_eng/digital_lenses/DRCU.html

Yair

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FredBGG
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2013, 02:03:25 PM »
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I should clarify;

Rollei Control-S with e-shutters (made by DHW): This is the CURRENT model and it can run off of a NiMh battery with full control of the lens:



Schneider Shutter Control ES: It was manufactured by a 3rd party for Schneider and was recently discontinued. It can run on a battery and like the Rollei can drive the lens without tethering:



Silvestri DRCU (also now endorsed by Schneider): As the others it can also run on battery: http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti_eng/digital_lenses/DRCU.html

Yair



Another good thing about these is that the screen is easier to view in bright light than a cell phone of laptop.
The gigapan has the same sort of old school LCD
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MrSmith
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2013, 02:27:05 PM »
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You would think a simple Bluetooth or USB lead to an iOS /android product direct to an electronic shutter would suffice? Or is there not enough cash to develop that? One less thing to carry too.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2013, 02:37:45 PM »
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Again I have to ask if you've had the chance to shoot such a system.

Your current workflow was developed around the capabilities of your current platform.

It is possible that with medium format you'll still find you want to take a dozen loose shots with three exposures each,
and do all your work in post to blend and merge them. But you'd be the exception not the rule.
Most users (even those very heavily focused on quality) are very happy with the quality from a single capture, or at most a 2 or 3 image stitch with no exposure blending.

Until you've taken some real world images with a LFD platform I would not make assumptions about how you will use it.

One of the advantages of stitching is using only one lens... and having to carry only one lens (and maybe another for backup)
The tendency is toy use those lenses that on all systems tend to be the best and that is short to medium telephoto.
These lenses tend to have the best corner to corner resolution in particular with reflex cameras.
For this reason the amount of shots taken is largely determined by what angle of view you want for the final shot.
There are also considerations to be made regarding how much time can be taken for the overall shot.

That said the IQ180 is still the best choice as far as ultimate resolution goes for single shot photos.

As far as the need or not for exposure blending there is no advantage with a MFD back compared to
many DSLRs. These days there are quite a few with as high dynamic range, even budget cameras with smaller sensors.

That said the need for exposure blending on very wide panos is more common than with single shot work.
This is because a pano can go from pointing almost at the sun to the complete opposite side of the sky.

Panos are not a total replacement for MFD and MFD is not a replacement for panos.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2013, 02:49:10 PM »
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You would think a simple Bluetooth or USB lead to an iOS /android product direct to an electronic shutter would suffice? Or is there not enough cash to develop that? One less thing to carry too.

Not sure about what protocol these items use.

However the adoption of programmable processors by Phase One may make the development of these types of functionality
possible. They could even be separately sold upgrades.

I think that the very nifty wifi review that Phase One implemented is a good indication of the capabilities that can be developed.
Telling a lens what to do is very simple compared to the operations wifi preview is doing. What's more the new backs can setup the adhoc network that
could be used to talk to the lens. DHW, Schneider, Silvestri etc could licence their communication code.
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2013, 05:54:02 PM »
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One of the advantages of stitching is using only one lens... and having to carry only one lens (and maybe another for backup)
The tendency is toy use those lenses that on all systems tend to be the best and that is short to medium telephoto.
These lenses tend to have the best corner to corner resolution in particular with reflex cameras.
For this reason the amount of shots taken is largely determined by what angle of view you want for the final shot.
There are also considerations to be made regarding how much time can be taken for the overall shot.


Elliot
I think that is bad advice. You can use a single lens like a short to medium telephoto if you want to limit yourself to one type of panoramic. Personally I like to asses the scene and than decide. This panoramic for example was shot on a 28mm lens (20mm in 35mm format)  I know other scenes will be more suited to my 35mm or 47mm lenses (24mm and around 35mm in 35mm format) and The nearest branch was a few feet away. It allowed me to get right in the middle of these trees. The trees with their wonderful bark are only feet away. The branches are going left to right. The panoramic consists of 37 views. Each view had 4 exposures. All shot cocking the shutter on the lens. The longest exposure was 85 seconds. All shot without a break over about 2 hours. No image shift between any of the exposures and a seamless stitch. The Schneider 28mm has practically zero distortion. You can rest assured if you do go with Schneider lenses on a technical camera that distortion and barreling will not be an issue. Can't speak for the Rodesnstocks but from what I've read there is distortion (which can be corrected but it an extra step. If you are using little or no movements than I would go with the Schneiders. Large movements with the wider Schneider wide angle lenses on the new larger sensor Phase One IQ backs will give you horrible magenta colour casts.
The angles of the trees are how they actually were by the way. 
I had 5mm of rise on the shot in this post so as to keep the vertical dynamic whilst moving the horizon down to the bottom third. The image was stitched with PTGUI ( a phenomenally clever piece of software)



The second image with the jolly printers was captured today on my iPhone. The pano is in the process of been printed and mounted.



Here is a link to another LL post.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=74519.msg593690#msg593690

The colour shot illustrates the straight lines and the flat horizon.
 
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FredBGG
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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2013, 07:16:50 PM »
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Elliot
I think that is bad advice. You can use a single lens like a short to medium telephoto if you want to limit yourself to one type of panoramic. Personally I like to asses the scene and than decide. This panoramic for example was shot on a 28mm lens (20mm in 35mm format)  I know other scenes will be more suited to my 35mm or 47mm lenses (24mm and around 35mm in 35mm format).....
 

Enda I'm not advocating shooting with just one lens in all situations. My point was in response to Doug's post that users will be happy with 3 frame stitches and no multiple exposures.
The VERY NICE example you just posted is a clear example of where more than 3 shots would not have pulled it off. You pretty much created and impossible lens by using 37 views with 4 exposures each.

As you pointed out the proximity of your subject favors a wider lens.

The point I wanted to make is that final virtual angle of view has more to do with the number of exposures
made than resolution as stitching results in very high pixel count.

May I add that you did a damn good job and keeping track of 37x4=148 exposures over two hours especially for this subject requires good skill and discipline !!
Setting up a gigapan and a DSLR set to bracket for each view is a piece of cake in comparison and take much less time and not require even half of the effort
and discipline.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 07:28:12 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2013, 08:59:01 PM »
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Setting up a gigapan and a DSLR set to bracket for each view is a piece of cake in comparison and take much less time and not require even half of the effort
and discipline.




Ah sure what's the fun in that.  Cheesy
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2013, 09:03:47 PM »
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So to conclude this thread: there is currently no way to control shutter and aperture with a LF system other than touching the lens or tethering to a laptop?

The Rollie electronic shutter might be an option, but does this limit the lens compatibility to just rollie lenses?


Elliott -

There will be a flush of new shutter options over the next couple years from a number of manufacturers. However, for today, for what you are asking for - portability/minimal vibration/maximum stability, for medium format you might consider the Sinar eShutter with a MacBook Air tethered to a Phase One digital back (or Leaf Credo, basically any digital back that can drive itself with on board battery). This would be the equivalent of bringing along a large-ish iPad (plus the eShutter controller, which is about 7"x3"x1/2"). You could then trigger it with your iPhone.

Or you might consider an H4D/H5D, since you don't need movements. You could shoot with mirror up, (and on the H4D/H5D the mirror stays up until you lower it), and all your lens data would be captured, and your captures would be corrected via Hasselbald DAC (Lens Corrections) for distortion, chromatic aberration and vignetting. A bit bulkier than a tech camera, but looking at your choices today, these may be 2 of the better options. One nice feature not often mentioned for the H4D/H5D is that you can dial in temperature control, as opposed to just choosing Daylite/Auto, etc, or clicking on a grey card, like with other digital backs. This might be nice for you since you don't seem to prefer the sterile color balancing of a grey card.


Steve Hendrix
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FredBGG
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2013, 09:14:25 PM »
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Ah sure what's the fun in that.  Cheesy


Cheesy

True the challenge can be part of the fun....
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2013, 12:07:14 AM »
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The panoramic consists of 37 views. Each view had 4 exposures.



Nice image.

On the other hand I am not sure why you needed HDR for this scene. It seems to be overcast and the sky appears not to have much detail in it anyway. Could you not have exposed for the grass in the distance and lifted the shadows of the trees in the foreground?

Considering the print size, one row seems more than sufficient also. Do the 37 images correspond to the usage of DoF stacking?

Cheers,
Bernard
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2013, 07:02:29 AM »
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Nice image.

On the other hand I am not sure why you needed HDR for this scene. It seems to be overcast and the sky appears not to have much detail in it anyway. Could you not have exposed for the grass in the distance and lifted the shadows of the trees in the foreground?

Considering the print size, one row seems more than sufficient also. Do the 37 images correspond to the usage of DoF stacking?

Cheers,
Bernard


Thanks Bernard.
It is one row. The exposure for the shadows was 85 seconds. The exposure for the grass in the back ground was I believe a half second from memory. I didn't create a hdr image per say which is a tonemapped image from a 32  bit image but fusing the images allowed me to get perfect detail in all the bright and dark areas without having to noise and burnt out highlights. Trust me it was not possible on my back. I'm sure with an IQ more would be achieved but for me it was about trying to recreate what the eye can see and not what a single exposure can achieve on a camera.

By the way I try not to crop. These panoramics have been printed up to 18 feet wide on acrylic (40ft on vinyl) and cropping is one thing I do not do. I have captured that image because that is how I saw the scene. I don't shoot wider to cover my ass so I can crop later. Wink
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2013, 11:58:37 AM »
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Or you might consider an H4D/H5D, since you don't need movements. You could shoot with mirror up, (and on the H4D/H5D the mirror stays up until you lower it), and all your lens data would be captured, and your captures would be corrected via Hasselbald DAC (Lens Corrections) for distortion, chromatic aberration and vignetting. A bit bulkier than a tech camera, but looking at your choices today, these may be 2 of the better options. One nice feature not often mentioned for the H4D/H5D is that you can dial in temperature control, as opposed to just choosing Daylite/Auto, etc, or clicking on a grey card, like with other digital backs. This might be nice for you since you don't seem to prefer the sterile color balancing of a grey card.

With its auto bracketing capability and mirror lock-up throughout the multiple exposures, the H4D has worked well for me when the dynamic range of the scene is just too great for single exposure settings. The following is a five-bracket exposure tone-mapped with luminance masks.

Ed

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FredBGG
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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2013, 12:14:08 PM »
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Enda

What is interesting about this image is that the actual subject isn't really that pretty, but it is the way you photographed it
that lets you see the subject in another way. While the image reproduces the reality of the textures etc it introduces a perspective
and a tonal range that even the eye can't see in one view.

I can imagine this on both sides of a corridor. I even think that viewing the picture from off to one side gives it even more depth
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