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Author Topic: They just don't get it!  (Read 4722 times)
marcmccalmont
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« on: April 01, 2013, 08:54:06 PM »
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Every time I see a promising smaller camera it either has a fixed focal length lens or its normal zoom range kit lens is poor quality
When will we see a full frame or APS C sensor with a 28-90mm equivalent high quality lens? The only exception is the Fuji XE-1
A little R&D in the compact normal zoom lens area please .....Nikon, Sony etc
Marc
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EgillBjarki
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2013, 01:48:38 AM »
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I'm guessing that the reasoning for the fixed lenses, is the size factor.

Personally, I have been using The Fuji X100 since it came out. I am however selling it. Extremely quite and light and has decent output quality, but I just want FF and more focal lengths like you do.

Currently I use my backup body, Canon 6D with a Tamron 24-70mm (got it for video) the way I used my X100 in the past. Not by any means light, but it's FF and not to loud (silent mode).

Every time I see a promising smaller camera it either has a fixed focal length lens or its normal zoom range kit lens is poor quality
When will we see a full frame or APS C sensor with a 28-90mm equivalent high quality lens? The only exception is the Fuji XE-1
A little R&D in the compact normal zoom lens area please .....Nikon, Sony etc
Marc
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BJL
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 08:57:21 AM »
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Every time I see a promising smaller camera it either has a fixed focal length lens or its normal zoom range kit lens is poor quality
When will we see a full frame or APS C sensor with a 28-90mm equivalent high quality lens? The only exception is the Fuji XE-1.
Unfortunatley, this is mostly a consequence of simple arithmetic: the bulk of a working camera (one with a lens attached!) is dictated far more by the size and weight of the lens than of the sensor, which is far smaller. Two factors that force the lens to get bulky are the maximum effective aperture diameter (focal length divided by aperture ratio) and the extra complications of a zoom lens.

So when camera makers set out to put a big sensor in a small camera, they often play the game of keeping the lens small, which means either keeping the (maximum) focal length shortish or having a high minimum f-stop at the long end (f/5.6 or slower), and often by using a fixed focal length lens.

I applaud Fujifilm for offering a more substantial 55mm and f/4 at the long end of the XE-1 kit zoom, but it does bulk the camera up a bit, once you get beyond the marketing gimmicks of talking about just the size of the body with no lens attached, and only ever showing front-on views to hide the lens bulk. See the side views here:
Fujifilm XE-1 with 18-55/2.8-4
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:05:35 AM by BJL » Logged
theguywitha645d
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2013, 09:03:38 AM »
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Every time I see a promising smaller camera it either has a fixed focal length lens or its normal zoom range kit lens is poor quality
When will we see a full frame or APS C sensor with a 28-90mm equivalent high quality lens? The only exception is the Fuji XE-1
A little R&D in the compact normal zoom lens area please .....Nikon, Sony etc
Marc

So buy a Fuji X-E1.
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2013, 09:40:48 AM »
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So buy a Fuji X-E1.
I probably will but I wish there was a full frame equivalent and I wish there were more choices
Marc Smiley
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Marc McCalmont
marcmccalmont
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 09:44:52 AM »
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Unfortunatley, this is mostly a consequence of simple arithmetic: the bulk of a working camera (one with a lens attached!) is dictated far more by the size and weight of the lens than of the sensor, which is far smaller. Two factors that force the lens to get bulky are the maximum effective aperture diameter (focal length divided by aperture ratio) and the extra complications of a zoom lens.

I would think one could design a lens sacrificing distortion for smaller size then remove the distortion in camera?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
Misirlou
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 09:57:58 AM »
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I would think one could design a lens sacrificing distortion for smaller size then remove the distortion in camera?
Marc

Yes, as long as you didn't want a large maximum aperture. No getting around that. At full frame, the required aperture size is very easy to calculate, and drives the lens diameter. I suppose the smallest large aperture 35mm frame lenses in common use were the Leica and Contax screw mount lenses, and they were pretty big by modern compact camera standards.

Back in 2001 or so, I made a comment here that I expected manufacturers to start building lenses with serious distortions, knowing they could be handled in-camera via s/w. Many potential benefits, including somewhat smaller lenses. I'm sure that my small jpeg-only Panasonic works that way now.
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BJL
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2013, 12:22:14 PM »
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I would think one could design a lens sacrificing distortion for smaller size then remove the distortion in camera?
That might allow some downsizing, but does not overcome the simple optical fact that the maximum effective aperture diameter sets a lower limit on the size of the front lens elements, and that for a standard wide-to-telephoto lenses, the need to accommodate light coming in from a wide angle when at the shortest focal length requires the front elements to be considerably larger than the maximum effective aperture diameter. Look at any number of standard zoom lenses to see what I mean, including recent ones that strive to be small, such as ones for Micro Four Thirds. I hope you did look at the side view of that Fujifilm XE-1 with 18-55/2.8-4, for example.

To put it another way: what you ask for is such an obviously desirable thing, especially now with good small cameras all the rage, that if it were currently feasible and cost-effective, it would have been done by now by at least one of the vigorously competing camera companies. Sometimes, you will learn more by trying to understand why multiple successful, competing companies do not yet offer some desirable product or feature: it is more likely to be due to a technical or cost-related reason rather than industry-wide incompetence, as your original subject line seems to suggest.

P. S. If that Fujifilm 18-55/2.8-4 were scaled up to 35mm format, to get a 28-80/2.8-4, all lengths would go up by a factor of 1.5, so the volume and weight of each optical element would go up by a factor of about 3. But it might be a bit smaller and lighter than such a lens for a 35mm format SLR, due to not having the constraints of keeping the rear lens elements away from the mirror.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 12:26:23 PM by BJL » Logged
marcmccalmont
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2013, 01:06:28 PM »
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To put it another way: what you ask for is such an obviously desirable thing, especially now with good small cameras all the rage, that if it were currently feasible and cost-effective, it would have been done by now by at least one of the vigorously competing camera companies. Sometimes, you will learn more by trying to understand why multiple successful, competing companies do not yet offer some desirable product or feature: it is more likely to be due to a technical or cost-related reason rather than industry-wide incompetence, as your original subject line seems to suggest.
Not implying incompetence in my original post I just see all these wide angle primes welded to this generation of smaller cameras and frustrated that a normal zoom isn't attached say 28-90 f4.0?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
BJL
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2013, 03:31:21 PM »
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Not implying incompetence in my original post ...
I was referring to the accusation in your original subject line
"they just don't get it",
your plea in the original post for
"A little R&D in the compact normal zoom lens area please"
and your subsequent claim that
"I would think one could design a lens sacrificing distortion for smaller size then remove the distortion in camera?"

All of these suggest that you believe that the lenses that you (and I!) want are feasible, and are not available mainly due to lack of R&D effort and/or misjudgment of what customers want, which is what I meant by "incompetence".

I am suggesting instead that a number of camera makers do "get it" and are striving to produce standard zoom lenses with various balances between speed and compactness, but that there are technical limits at work. Given the inevitable size/speed trade-offs, it is good that at least we are starting to see options like f/2.8-4 in addition to f/3.5-5.6 in "APS-C" format, although still the only way to get different size/speed choices for standard zooms in a single system is with Micro Four Thirds.


P. S. Whatever happened to intermediate speed/size/cost options like the f/2.8-3.5 4x zooms and f/2.8-4 5x zoom offered for Four Thirds SLR's? Such designs should even be easier once free of the SLR mirror.
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jerryrock
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2013, 03:38:48 PM »
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Canon made a very sharp kit zoom for Canon EOS-M.

Canon EF-M 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM
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k bennett
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2013, 04:08:19 PM »
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I probably will but I wish there was a full frame equivalent and I wish there were more choices
Marc Smiley

A few years ago we had zero choices, so in my mind things are getting pretty exciting.
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2013, 08:22:32 PM »
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A few years ago we had zero choices, so in my mind things are getting pretty exciting.
I just get frustrated every time I see another "neat" smallish camera come out with improved IQ and a wide prime welded to it!
I'm a "normal zoom" kind of guy, just wish more effort was put into quality normal zooms on these more compact cameras
Marc
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 11:43:58 PM »
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Hi,

I have a Sony RX100, it is pocketable and quite good, but not FX or even APS-C. The zoom is pretty good in the short end but corners are "ouch" at the long end.

Sony is rumored to come out with a "Zeiss" 16-70 for the NEX.

You can use some full frame lenses with the Metabones "Speed Booster", they are made for NEX, FUJI-X and 4/3.

Best regards
Erik

I just get frustrated every time I see another "neat" smallish camera come out with improved IQ and a wide prime welded to it!
I'm a "normal zoom" kind of guy, just wish more effort was put into quality normal zooms on these more compact cameras
Marc
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HarperPhotos
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2013, 12:31:56 AM »
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Hello,

I have just upgraded my old Fuji X10 to the new Fuji X20 and the improvements are great.

Marc you should try one out it a great little camera.

Cheers

Simon
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Glenn NK
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2013, 01:09:04 AM »
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I just get frustrated every time I see another "neat" smallish camera come out with improved IQ and a wide prime welded to it!
I'm a "normal zoom" kind of guy, just wish more effort was put into quality normal zooms on these more compact cameras
Marc

I understand your point.

I've spent a fair bit of time looking for decent zooms for M43 (on photozone), and virtually all the zooms have pretty bad distortion (on some it's worse than pretty bad).  It can be corrected in the camera, but only in JPEG files, not RAW, and of course an in-camera correction comes with its own problems when the image is stretched and/or compressed to remove barrel and pincushion distortion.

And yes, the lenses get pretty large.

OTOH, I think that they do get it - it gets increasingly harder to remove distortion as the lens gets smaller.

Glenn
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Quentin
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2013, 06:21:11 AM »
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Try a Sigma DP2M, DP1M and/or DP3M.  No other compact cameras come close in terms of image quality, provided you can live with fairly poor high ISO quality and quirky software.
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k bennett
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2013, 06:34:04 AM »
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I just get frustrated every time I see another "neat" smallish camera come out with improved IQ and a wide prime welded to it!
I'm a "normal zoom" kind of guy, just wish more effort was put into quality normal zooms on these more compact cameras
Marc

Cool, so get the Fuji and the 35/1.4 normal lens. I got to play with one last week and it's quite a capable little camera. As a bonus, you can stick a wide angle lens in your pocket just in case.
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BJL
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2013, 04:31:01 PM »
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Marc,
    I am with you on this: wanting more options for compact lens-camera kits with good quality normal zooms and a sensor significantly bigger than the traditional 2/3" or smaller of compact cameras.
I'm a "normal zoom" kind of guy, just wish more effort was put into quality normal zooms on these more compact cameras
Quote
When will we see a full frame or APS C sensor with a 28-90mm equivalent high quality lens?
Some people here seemed to have mis-read what you are hoping for, given all the recommendations of prime lenses ("Fuji and the 35/1.4 normal lens"), cameras with permanently attached prime lenses ("Sigma DP2M, DP1M and/or DP3M") and cameras with 2/3" sensors ("Fujifilm X20"). Or non-existent lenses ("Sony is rumored to ...").

I am actually satisfied with the Olympus 12-50 on my E-M5, despite the complaints about distortion --- and I believe that RAW files can be distortion corrected, but it requires using the Olympus Master software for that stage of the processing. There is one other high quality normal zoom around for the new compact systems: the Panasonic 12-35 f/2.8 for mFT, which is fairly light at 305g, but expensive ($1300) and not so compact (67.6mm diameter, 73.8mm long). And of course it is a bit smaller than "APS-C" size: 20% smaller than Canon's APS-C, 25% smaller than Sony-Nikon-Pentax "APS-C", but the extra lens speed more than compensates.
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Glenn NK
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2013, 07:03:25 PM »
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There is one other high quality normal zoom around for the new compact systems: the Panasonic 12-35 f/2.8 for mFT, which is fairly light at 305g, but expensive ($1300) and not so compact (67.6mm diameter, 73.8mm long). And of course it is a bit smaller than "APS-C" size: 20% smaller than Canon's APS-C, 25% smaller than Sony-Nikon-Pentax "APS-C", but the extra lens speed more than compensates.

I looked at the photozone review of this lens.  A direct quote from their review:

That said it is still interesting to look a bit behind the scenes by using an "unsupported" RAW converter like e.g. RAW Therapee. This converter reveals the native barrel distortion level of about 5.8% at 12mm. This is excessive - and as such it is highly disappointing for such a lens. Please note that the correction of such an amount of distortion is lossy due to the required image stretching and interpolations.

I had been looking for a zoom lens for this body, but so far none have turned up that matches (for example), my Canon 17-55.  I will keep looking and hoping.

Glenn
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