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Author Topic: Reducing color noise with Neat Video in After Effects  (Read 3885 times)
spotmeter
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« on: April 02, 2013, 10:36:10 PM »
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I took my Sony FS700 down to Point Lobos to shoot some landscape videos and found a lot of color noise, especially evident in the blue skies. The noise is reddish purple. I tried to remove it with Neat Video in AE but the results were not good enough, and it softened the clouds too much.

Any recommendations for software to reduce color noise, or are there settings in Neat Video to do this?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:30:11 AM by spotmeter » Logged

fredjeang2
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 06:30:22 AM »
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Hi,
It typicaly happens with 8 bits footage.
If you got the plugin in a software like AE
Make sure you are in 32 bits.

There is probably not enough recorded datas
For the software to reconstruct properly the
De-noised image.

This Ian't an editorial task but a fx. You May
Need to roundtrip to after-effects.

You can take into consideration that to eliminate
Color noise, you might want to add noise. But within
A compo soft.

Sounds a paradox to add controled noise to erradicate
The recording one, but it's done all the time.

If you have access to chanels blender or mixer,
You'll be able to control more efficiently all the
Process.

Think that this is not an easy task and ejem things are
Tough, specially with highly compressed footage, you'd
Need power softs and experience as colorist.

Another option is to transcode the footage in is, go to
Ps and work the noise from it. Or to capture 1 as well.

Best luck.
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spotmeter
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 06:51:14 AM »
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Difficult to understand your reply.

Seems to be full of typos.
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2013, 07:24:52 AM »
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Let's see if I can explain in a different way.

You got the Neat plug-in, wich is indeed the best one of its class.

If my merory is correct, your camera cannot record more tan 8bits in 422

The degradation you see is typical on 8 bits footage. Your neat plug-in can do a lot, but cannot reconstruct properly the denoised image without significant lost
because there aren't enough datas to work with. Tricking and tricking the controls within the plug-in may obtain better results, or good enough results, but
I got the sensation that you are working with the original footage within an editor. But what you trying to acheive is not an editorial task, it's a colorist and-or FX task.

You'd need to "go-out" of the editor colorspace and work with more tan 8bits in RGB for the best results.
It means that if your original footage is 8bits, you'd need to convert that into a workable format before working on this.

In general, highly compressed footage is not suitable for most color tasks as it. Too Little datas and the images falls appart very easily.
That's why they are limited to mass products with the consequent limitations and hassles.
At the minimum issue, there is nothing to do. To minimize the impact of the banding or lost of def resulting in color manipulations in 8bits, adding control noise
is the way to go. It's been done all the time.

In other words: 8bits footage needs to be converted to stop the bleeding before applying medicine. And it needs to be transfered to a different application than a typical NLE.

The Neat plug-in exists for AE. I ignore in what software you use it. AE would indeed work as it's capable to handle 32bits. Da-Vinci resolve also would work.

If not, exporting I.S like tiff will result a safe bet as compo software like I.S but also, if you cannot Access a compositing soft, you can always Access
photoshop or capture one, work your noise from there that will result much better and batch apply to each frame. Then, re-import your cleaned sequence into the editor.

Personaly, if you are not familiar with software like Nuke, A.E, Resolve etc...I'd choose the still application route because you'd know C1 or PS. Simply work in image sequence
as if it was a still image within a still app. You'll have way better results. Guaranty.

 






« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 07:46:31 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
spotmeter
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2013, 07:58:51 AM »
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Your reply is a little more understandable.

The camera does only output 8 bit files. The sensor apparently can record 4K, but Sony crippled the output so the camera would not detract from sales of their more expensive cameras.

I am working in AE with Neat Video. I am not working in an NLE.

What does 'exporting I.S' and 'compo software like I.S' mean?
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 08:08:48 AM »
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If you are working in AE you are in the safe house, make sure you are in 32bits before any manipulation. You could ask Sarreesh this question because it seems that he uses A.E and I'm sure he would be able to guide you within A.E. I'm using Nuke and unfortunatly cannot give you any A.E tip, but what I'm sure is that if you are in AE, you'll be able to obtain great results. I would maybe re-orientate your question to "neat within A.E", something like that, that way you'll have answers from the people using the same software.

Sorry for the shortcuts. I.S stands for image sequence. Compo = compositing, like A.E.

In general, compositing software like After effects, Nuke, like image sequences. Most effects artists work on those programs in image sequences. It's stable and got the datas to work with without degradations.

If your software allows it (and I think A.E does), working for example in open EXR would be very good because they ocupate less space than tiffs. http://www.openexr.com/
It's the prefered format here because of that. But on the other-hand, tiff will be a more flexible way because if you are not happy with the Neat results, you can always go to C1. With open EXR you'll only have the Photoshop option as I doubt Capture One supports open EXR (but Photoshop does).

Cheers.

Ps: I think that the FS700 is a great camera. Probably the best within the 8 bits range with maybe the Pana AF100 (that would need a serious up-grade), certainly way better tan dslrs. In fact, the need for more robust artillery appears only in certain situations and 70% of the time it would deliver great footage.

However, when real manipulations need to be done, like compositing, perfect keyings, noise removal (depending very much on how bad is the original), the format delivered by those cameras is too short and degrades too early. So a convertion has to be done. The convertion do not add any datas at all, but avoid loosing more.

It's like you got a jpeg and want to do heavy retouching with it. You're going to convert that jpeg into a PS, Tiff etc...format. No datas are added, but no more datas will be lost during the manipulations and you can do families (tiff to tiff etc...). Instead, compressed formats loose each time a new generation is generated.

Unfortunatly, Raw video is not yet democratized enough.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:39:10 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
ftbt
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 10:17:07 AM »
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You may want to give Dark Energy a try. They have a plug-in for AE and a free trial. Otherwise, you need to find a post house that has PF Clean or something similar.
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 10:29:39 AM »
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I'm not sure if a PF facility would suit the need and wallet of the poster in the sense that
I understand this is a free-lance or personal need (i may be wrong) and that he wants to
be able to do the best he can in his studio with the disponible mediums.

True that this isn't an easy answer and for best results, as always, money and specialized skilled are involved.

The Dark Energy plug-in seems to me a great advice. In Nuke I use the Furnace that Works great but it's not disponible for A.E that I know. Sure that for A.E users there are good options.
I would give a try to this Dark Energy and compare with the Neat.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 10:43:20 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2013, 02:55:56 PM »
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disponible = available  Smiley
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Christopher Sanderson
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spotmeter
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2013, 10:07:19 PM »
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I always set this camera to ISO 500, which is the base ISO, and 0db gain. The gamma is ITU709.

I wonder if the gain toggle switch on the side of the camera got bumped up to high (+18db) while shooting, which could account for the excessive noise.

Are the camera settings recorded with the footage from this camera?

If so, how do we find them?
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