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Author Topic: 70 MP CMOS sensor  (Read 5067 times)
design_freak
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« on: April 10, 2013, 01:53:32 PM »
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Belgium-based CMOSIS have developed an image sensor that blows away the competition

http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/chr70m

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jerome_m
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 02:12:19 PM »
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1: it is not a medium format sensor, so it does not really belong in this forum
2: it does not even seem to be made for a "photographic camera" in the usual sense of the word. It seems to be designed for machine vision and aerial photography.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 02:25:55 PM »
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blows away the competition

...You've seen pictures generated with said sensor?

Or from where are you deriving your very strong analysis here?
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FredBGG
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 02:31:07 PM »
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1: it is not a medium format sensor, so it does not really belong in this forum
2: it does not even seem to be made for a "photographic camera" in the usual sense of the word. It seems to be designed for machine vision and aerial photography.

It is most likely made for photographic application in that it's designed for a 35mm optical format. There is also a monochrome version... that is not a typical machine vision application.

I also think that a 70MP sensor has strong implications for the MF market as well as CMOSIS being a possible MFD sensor supplier.

CMOSIS is the company that makes the new Leica sensor. The Leica is getting excellent reviews.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 02:45:37 PM by FredBGG » Logged
design_freak
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2013, 02:33:32 PM »
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Hi Doug,
Did you ever read the announcement of Phase One equipment?
Chill out  Smiley
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torger
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2013, 02:40:20 PM »
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It has rather low dynamic range. Its intended use is for document scanning for example, it is not intended for photographic applications the way we think about it.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 05:04:20 PM »
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63db snr is not going to blow away any current tech...   
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FredBGG
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 05:06:43 PM »
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63db snr is not going to blow away any current tech...   


True. This sensor has analogue output rather than on chip ADCs. However CMOSIS filed two US patents on new on chip ADCs
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2013, 05:19:38 PM »
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with 3.1um pixel pitch you can't expect much even with on board ADC's. 
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FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 06:39:50 PM »
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with 3.1um pixel pitch you can't expect much even with on board ADC's. 


D7100 sensor is 3.9 µm and has a dynamic range of 13.7 vs 14.4 D800 and 13.6 IQ180 

It looks like new technology is pushing the quality obtainable with small pixel pitch..... the limitation will be diffraction.
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torger
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 02:15:07 AM »
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D7100 sensor is 3.9 µm and has a dynamic range of 13.7 vs 14.4 D800 and 13.6 IQ180  

It looks like new technology is pushing the quality obtainable with small pixel pitch..... the limitation will be diffraction.

It will be interesting to see what the limits will be in terms of resolution. Diffraction is relative to the format size, so it is no worse on a small sensor than on a large, just open up the aperture. Concerning depth of field vs diffraction it's a zero-sum game.

My guess would be that the limit will be in the optics and the required precision for those to get such high resolving power. Lens mount could have precision issues too, causing widely varying performance. It seems to me that the medium format has a better tradeoff in terms of format size to be able to squeeze out resolving power from optics. That is at least what I see currently, tech camera lenses resolve more pixels inside their image circle than the best tilt-shift lenses for DSLRs.

I've thought about the reason why that can be, I think it's not so much about that Schneider/Rodenstock would be better at doing optics than for example Canon, maybe it's even the opposite, but Canon need to make different design tradeoffs including stronger retrofocus (there's a mirror there, but even if mirrorless color cast which we accept in tech cams would not be acceptable in a 135 camera so retrofocus it is) and support larger aperture. A tech cam lens designer can give-a-damn about large aperture and care less about color cast and design just for high resolving power for a specific working aperture.

We'll see those high resolution sensors in cameras quite soon I think, and in the longer term it is best to outresolve both lens and diffraction with the sensor so we maximize what the system can get, and we don't get issues with aliasing and moiré.

From a tech camera perspective though I'm a bit worried that those sensor designs actually worsens color cast which makes those successful highly symmetric wide angle lens designs impossible. The trend in medium format has also been towards smaller pixels and worse color cast, but I'm glad than the new sensor in IQ260 actually take a step backwards from the IQ180 and works better with tech cam applications.

However, we see that when resolving power becomes really high the complexity of lens design increases, as we can see in Rodenstock wide angles. Part of their complexity is due to that they are retrofocus to reduce color cast with an IQ180 I guess, but a simple symmetric design only goes that far on the wide end. I don't particularly like that trend either, at some point resolving power is enough for practical image making and I would prefer focus on other aspects of the camera system rather than pushing towards more and more complex optics which increase cost (and weight and reduce robustness) in a more permanent way than complex electronics do. The complex lens designs also often have worse bokeh due to their high degree of correction. I'd like to see the traditional large format lens designs as well represented in the Schneider Apo-Digitar series live on.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 02:21:45 AM by torger » Logged
Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 03:38:49 AM »
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I think that MF and the traditional makers are actually loosing grip on this technology lead. See here

http://cinescopophilia.com/astro-design-debuting-an-8k-camera-head-and-1080p-lcos-evf-at-nab/

...........AH-4800 Image sensor
: 2.5inch 33million pixels single plate CMOS............

Welcome CMOS Medium format - with 60 images a second !

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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torger
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2013, 04:51:47 AM »
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Dynamic range seems to be the main problem of those global shutter CMOSes, if we want high end image quality? I wonder how long it takes before it will be at the level we have come to expect in photography.

I guess we'll have MF CMOS without global shutter before we have MF CMOS with it though.

I would not call the video advances as "technological lead" as their sensors won't work well for photography. And development pace in photographic applications in the smaller formats has been pretty rapid too. Hopefully it will spill over to MF rather soon, it shall be most interesting to see what changes a CMOS sensor will bring to how an MFDB works.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:59:34 AM by torger » Logged
Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2013, 06:07:47 AM »
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Hi Torger

well, as there is superexposure resolution enhancement, multishot noise reduction and HDR dynamic range extension, it does not have to happen in further
photon collection, it will happen in shere computing power in raw post. And thats actually available: NOW.

And I think this will be even higher quality than any silicon made straight approach.
And this also prevents any further problems with optical feed by diffraction and other little nuisances.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 06:10:06 AM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2013, 06:30:43 AM »
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And doing some math - this CMOS does have 8.2 micron pixel size. 63,5mm:7680 pixel

for comparison an IQ180 has 5,2 microns and 27,4 square-micron size
8,2 microns will result in 67,24 square -microns, roughly 245% more caught photons. (2,5"= 63,5mm:7680 pixel)

I doubt somebody will be dissappointed by the dynamic range of that sensor (out of the box).

Regards
Stefan
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 06:50:45 AM »
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Hi Stefan

Where did you find the sensor dimensions? It says 2.5" but I dont know what it means in mm, after all, 4/3" seems to 18x12 mm. have you found any other number?

Best regards
Erik

And doing some math - this CMOS does have 8.2 micron pixel size. 63,5mm:7680 pixel

for comparison an IQ180 has 5,2 microns and 27,4 square-micron size
8,2 microns will result in 67,24 square -microns, roughly 245% more caught photons. (2,5"= 63,5mm:7680 pixel)

I doubt somebody will be dissappointed by the dynamic range of that sensor (out of the box).

Regards
Stefan
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Kolor-Pikker
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 06:56:46 AM »
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This sensor would make a good match for the only 35mm lens capable of providing the required resolving power - the newly announced Zeiss 55mm f/1.4...
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 06:58:34 AM »
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Hi Erik

1"= 25,4mm, the data is given in Pixel(the longer side counts for the size), there may be a slight variation because the 2,5" may apply to the full sensor size
(as the Dicomed Bigshot which was 60x60mm but the active pixels were only using 55x55mm)

AH-4800 Image sensor
: 2.5inch 33million pixels single plate CMOS
(SENSOR Developed by NHK Engineering System,Inc.)
[Active resolution] : 7680×4320
[Lens mount] : PL mount
[Output] : 12-channel parallel optical-fiber
[Dimensions] : 125(W) x 125(H) x 150(D)mm
[Weight] : 2kg

http://www.astrodesign.co.jp/english/news/news-20130405-1790.html
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 07:05:32 AM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2013, 07:02:27 AM »
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Hi Color Pikker

sorry that wouldn´t do as the Zeiss is for 35mm and this chip has 63,5x35,4mm

This needs MF lenses. It will also be totally uncritical in sharpness as any decent MF lens will feed the 8,2 Micron easily (that´s about the Pixelsize of the old 20 Mpix backs)

Regards
Stefan
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2013, 07:08:37 AM »
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?97745-8K-Camera-weights-just-2kg
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