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Author Topic: Why do people oversharpen?  (Read 10023 times)
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 07:21:13 PM »
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Hi,

I would be much interested on your take of the four images below. They are taken from a discussion thread started by "Chrismuc" who's images are used.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=73668.0

I would suggest checking the enclosed images before reading the thread,

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 07:24:41 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Ray
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 07:40:11 PM »
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Why do people oversharpen?
The simplest and truest answer: ignorance.

That's not a particularly helpful answer, Ellis. Ignorance is an unavoidable part of the human condition. One could say, there are only two types of people; those who know they are ignorant and those who don't know they are ignorant. One could also say that those who know they are ignorant are less ignorant than those who don't know they are ignorant.  Wink
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Ray
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2013, 07:47:54 PM »
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I'm talking about creating detail that isn't there like the aforementioned orange peel effect that is artefacts from over sharpening.
 I don't worry about other peoples images so I can carry on with my life without getting anxious about them  Roll Eyes but wondered what was the thinking behind the phenomenon.

In a sense, you've answered your own question, Mr Smith. The oversharpening you seem to be referring to are artefacts. I don't believe anyone deliberately oversharpens in order to create artifacts, unless perhaps if he's attempting to create an abstract image consisting of exaggerated sharpening artifacts. Anything goes in the name of art.

Any tendency to oversharpen parts of the image where artefacts are not noticeable, or less noticeable, would be due to peoples' general fascination with the continually increasing resolution possible from the most recent developments in digital camera technology.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 01:10:08 AM »
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I think we would also need to define what 'over sharpening' is, what is over sharp for some is good sharpening for another. I remember when canon came out with what they considered was optimum capture sharpening for the 1DsII at the time, USM 300,0.3,0 and the forums were full of people saying just how OTT that amount was. Once we can define what is correct sharpening we can work out who to point a finger at. Until that point and given that like colour it's a matter of taste anyway, perhaps we can just carry on with our lives?
I would believe that objective criteria for sharpening can be established for capture sharpening and print sharpening. E.g. "compensate for high-frequency losses in capture/print with the goal of a flat, wide passband while avoiding excessive noise amplification". This is similar, I believe, to the goals of deconvolution.

For artistic sharpening, there is of course no objective goal.

-h
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2013, 01:13:03 AM »
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I'm talking about creating detail that isn't there like the aforementioned orange peel effect that is artefacts from over sharpening.
...
This might be arguing over semantics, but I believe that sharpening cannot "create detail that isn't there". It can accentuate detail that is very faint (such as skin pores or noise).

-h
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torger
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« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2013, 07:27:41 AM »
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It's the same reason that leica and medium format users think that being without AA filter is an advantage, they like fake detail Grin

Not being a printing or sharpening wizard or anything, I've noted that oversharpening the files a bit for my C-prints is beneficial for high PPIs, as the C-print is quite rounded and even it out, but really it only makes a difference on nosing distance so if I'd skip sharpening all-together and just work with global/local contrast it would not make much difference.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 07:32:53 AM by torger » Logged
Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2013, 08:07:42 AM »
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It's the same reason that leica and medium format users think that being without AA filter is an advantage, they like fake detail Grin

Not being a printing or sharpening wizard or anything, I've noted that oversharpening the files a bit for my C-prints is beneficial for high PPIs, as the C-print is quite rounded and even it out, but really it only makes a difference on nosing distance so if I'd skip sharpening all-together and just work with global/local contrast it would not make much difference.

I think that was my point, I find artefacts ugly however they are created and why there are those who would volunteer to have such artefacts by shooting a Leica M or Fuji X-MOS sensor escapes me, however I realise that there are many to whom such artefacts are a plus of 'sharpness'. It's just too subjective is it not?
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MrSmith
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« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2013, 08:13:56 AM »
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"I would be much interested on your take of the four images below."

after a very quick look, top right looks fine to me, bottom right is OTT, others are passable but still too much for me personally but possibly fine for their intended use (whatever that is)
not got the time to look at the thread.
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Rob C
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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2013, 01:24:43 PM »
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Sharpening, like saturation, contrast and other parameters seems to be ones where the public wants "larger than life", while some purists wants "realistic" values. Is this not a general social mechanism in which the "masses" want to make sure that their friends get the message, while the elites wants to distinguish themselves from the masses by using more subtle cues that takes another member of the elite to recognize?

-h



Ah, those pearls cast before swine!

;-)

Rob C
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2013, 02:10:17 PM »
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Hi,

Those images were from four different cameras:

2002: Contax N Digital (6 MP Philips CCD sensor w/ AA-filter, @ ISO25) + Contax N 100f2.8 Macro @ f8
2006: Leica R8 DMR (10 MP Kodak CCD sensor w/o AA-filter, @ ISO100) + Leica R 60f2.8 Macro @ f5.6
2009: Canon 5DII (21 MP Canon CMOS sensor w/ AA-filter, @ ISO 100) + Zeiss ZE 100f2 Macro @ f8
2011: Contax 645 IQ180 (80 MP Dalsa CCD sensor w/o AA-filter, @ ISO 50) + Zeiss Contax 645 140f2.8 @ f11

Downsized to 6 MP.

Your order was:

Fine: IQ180
OK: Canon 5DII and Contax N digital
OTT: Leica R8 DMR

My order was:

Best: Canon 5DII
Next best: IQ 180
Next next best: Contax N
OTT: Leica DMR

When I did the comparison I did not know which camera was which, but knew there was an IQ180, a DMR and a Contax N but didn't know about the Canon.

Best regards
Erik



"I would be much interested on your take of the four images below."

after a very quick look, top right looks fine to me, bottom right is OTT, others are passable but still too much for me personally but possibly fine for their intended use (whatever that is)
not got the time to look at the thread.
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xpatUSA
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« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2013, 12:48:48 AM »
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My take is a slow diminution of subtlety in our lives. We see it not only in over-sharpened images but also in highly saturated colors being de rigeur, redder than red sunsets, Foveon blue skies, cars covered with bling, grown men with stupid "little boy" haircuts, women with primary colored lipstick, movies where you know the plot and the ending after the first few frames have clattered past the arc lamp . . . I think I'd better stop now . . .

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best regards,

Ted
hjulenissen
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2013, 05:16:38 AM »
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Why is it that connoisseurs of cinema seems to prefer jumpy, non-realistic 24fps movement, while the general public prefers realistic 48fps+ movement?

Does connoisseurs of still-image photography prefer the realistic(?) sharpening of a flat passband, or the unrealistic aliasing of no OLPF? Or does still-image connoisseurs prefer the aliasing of no OLPF while the general public prefers the artifacts of overdone sharpening?

-h
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2013, 12:22:19 AM »
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I think that some people tend to post images immediately after they very quickly made adjustments on their computer, on their cell/mobile/tablet and post it for the world to see.  If they would wait a day or even an hour or so then revisit the image with fresh eyes, they probably would make further changes.  I think it boils down to a lack of patience.  They want more...stronger....and they want it now!  They drag some sliders, click a button or two, upload it and they never see it again.  They have moved on to their next masterpiece.
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2013, 10:30:27 AM »
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"That's not a particularly helpful answer, Ellis. Ignorance is an unavoidable part of the human condition."

It may be an unavoidable condition but it is curable. What we (I  am using the collective pronoun to describe the community of  who have figured their way of ignorance in this matter) suffer from is that quite often  the sharing of the cure (what we know) very often gets bogged down in the technical weeds of the algorithms when trying to explain the hows of why  over-sharpening is happening,  which just makes the message fly over most people's heads.

The solution needs to be better explained in language ( both words and pictures) that non-engineers can more easily comprehend. Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe have done much of the hard slogging and heavy lifting to move the discussion in a more comprehensible direction.
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Ellis Vener
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Ray
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« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2013, 08:36:50 AM »
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The solution needs to be better explained in language ( both words and pictures) that non-engineers can more easily comprehend. Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe have done much of the hard slogging and heavy lifting to move the discussion in a more comprehensible direction.

I would tend to agree with that, Ellis. What's missing in this discussion are examples of oversharpened images. One can't get very far with just words when discussing pictures.

My impression is that many pictures that appear oversharpened are actually oversharpened only in certain parts of the image due to a lack of selective sharpening. There is also the issue of monitor size and resolution that can affect the appearance of sharpening. A large but low resolution monitor will display a much larger image at 100% than a small, high resolution monitor, and as a consequence any sharpening artifacts will be magnified on the large, low resolution monitor.
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Hening Bettermann
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« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2013, 07:46:35 PM »
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Hi Erik

Your screen shots are labeled A,B,C,D. I can not relate this to 2001,2006,2009,2011.

A (bottom right) stands out by the sharpness of the background. Obviously due to smaller aperture, since sharpness in front is roughly the same as on the others.
B (top right) has a purple cast, compared to the others, and falls out by that
C (bottom left) and D (top left) look pretty much the same to me.

I would be curious which one is the 5D2...
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sunnycal
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« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2013, 10:01:43 PM »
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Why does it matter? An artist or a novice takes images for personal expression, and a photographer takes images for client's pleasure. If viewer does not like it, then viewer be damned (unless viewer is the one paying). So I think the simple answer is that people "oversharpen" because people like it (be they producers or buyers).

In my opinion there is really no right or wrong here.  People use a lot of other artifacts like over exposure, under exposure, lens flare, out of focus areas in their images. In fact, out of focus artifact has become so fashionable that we have a name for it; bokeh!

The appropriate question may be what is appropriate sharpening for me on this image.
 

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2013, 10:27:07 PM »
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Hi Henning,

Here is the original thread: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=73668.0

D: Canon 5DII
B: Phase One IQ180
C: Contax N
A: Leica DMR


Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik

Your screen shots are labeled A,B,C,D. I can not relate this to 2001,2006,2009,2011.

A (bottom right) stands out by the sharpness of the background. Obviously due to smaller aperture, since sharpness in front is roughly the same as on the others.
B (top right) has a purple cast, compared to the others, and falls out by that
C (bottom left) and D (top left) look pretty much the same to me.

I would be curious which one is the 5D2...

« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 10:29:40 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

MarkL
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2013, 07:02:24 AM »
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So they get 'omg that lens is so sharp' on their 800px jpgs posted on forums?

Really I think it is just the same as the oversaurated pictures, the super tone mapped pictures, the 'sky is darker than the foreground' landscapes, the b&w landscapes with so much contrast they look like the face of the moon, the ambient-3-stops-underexposed flash shots etc.

It is a case of taste and restraint.
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Jason DiMichele
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2013, 10:16:26 AM »
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Here are my 2 cents:

1) MrSmith, just curious as to why you wouldn't do a small amount of sharpening on your files regardless of lens used

2) While thinking of all the visual scars of some of the outrageously hideous images that gave/has given HDR it's bad rap, it's a scary thought to think that perhaps some people like the garish over sharpening. There's no way that the people who abused HDR couldn't tell that it looked fake. Perhaps they don't mind the over sharpening. There's a lot to be said for taste/bad taste.

3) It's possible that some individuals are using batch processing with settings that should only work for a few of their images and yet are applied to all (for example some of their images are interpolated to a large size and some small jpgs).

4) People are bombarded by overly saturated images in the media all the time and maybe some people think that the sharpening is adding "punch".

5) Lots of people just don't pay attention to details because they can't or don't. A man on a galloping horse as they say.

In my opinion subtlety goes a long way.

Cheers,
Jay
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Jason DiMichele
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