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Author Topic: Coarse papers  (Read 2661 times)
texshooter
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« on: April 15, 2013, 03:44:22 AM »
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Im looking for coarse sandpaper-like paper. Im liking the feel of

Hahnemuhle William Turner
Ilford Galerie Smooth Fine Art
Canson Arches Aquarelle

other papers I havent tried because they were excluded from the sample pack are

Hahnemuhle Torchon
Hahnemuhle Albrecht Durer
Innova Cold Press Rough Textured
Premier Art Watercolor

Are these more or less coarse to the touch than Hahnemuhle William Turner?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 11:05:00 AM by texshooter » Logged
howardm
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 12:03:19 PM »
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Albrecht Durer is like a canvas-y texture
Torchon is more wavy but smoother.

of the list, WT is the most coarse/sandpaper-y

From what I've read, WT is very (!!) delicate once printed on due to the surface texture.


Im looking for coarse sandpaper-like paper. Im liking the feel of

Hahnemuhle William Turner
Ilford Galerie Smooth Fine Art
Canson Arches Aquarelle

other papers I havent tried because they were excluded from the sample pack are

Hahnemuhle Torchon
Hahnemuhle Albrecht Durer
Innova Cold Press Rough Textured
Premier Art Watercolor

Are these more or less coarse to the touch than Hahnemuhle William Turner?
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 10:58:11 PM »
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of the list, WT is the most coarse/sandpaper-y
From what I've read, WT is very (!!) delicate once printed on due to the surface texture.

Exactly. William Turner is one of my favourites and it looks like a coarse sandpaper. It is very susceptible to abrasion, unfortunately.
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hugowolf
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 12:52:42 PM »
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Albrecht Durer is like a canvas-y texture
Torchon is more wavy but smoother.
of the list, WT is the most coarse/sandpaper-y
From what I've read, WT is very (!!) delicate once printed on due to the surface texture.
It is coarse, but not as coarse as Arches Aquarelle injet. Uncoated Arches Aquarelle comes in three surfaces: hot pressed, cold pressed and rough, and the inkjet coated paper is the rough.

I have had sample packs from Hahnemuhle with William Turner, but never with Torchon or Albrecht Durer.

Brian A
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howardm
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 02:17:02 PM »
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I've got WT and Aquarelle in my hands and the WT is coarser IMO.  Like it's got little 'points'.

The Canson is a close 2nd though.
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texshooter
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2013, 04:14:40 PM »
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It is coarse, but not as coarse as Arches Aquarelle injet. Uncoated Arches Aquarelle comes in three surfaces: hot pressed, cold pressed and rough, and the inkjet coated paper is the rough.

The Canson website only shows one surface of Arches Aquarelle: 240gsm and 310gsm. What do you mean three?
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howardm
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2013, 04:33:06 PM »
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you're probably looking at canson-infinity.com and they show the inkjet papers *only*.

Canson makes a bunch more true 'art' papers (watercolor, canvas) that are not inkjet coated; I'm guessing that
is what he is referring to (en.canson.com)

The Canson website only shows one surface of Arches Aquarelle: 240gsm and 310gsm. What do you mean three?
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hugowolf
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2013, 07:50:07 PM »
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I've got WT and Aquarelle in my hands and the WT is coarser IMO.  Like it's got little 'points'.

The Canson is a close 2nd though.
I haven’t printed in William Turner in a while, but the sample I have is definitely less coarse than then Arches Aquarelle that I have in 24 x 36 inch sheets and 44 inch rolls. They claim to be mould-made, so there may be some variation in batches.

The William Turner tends to flatten down more when the ink goes down too.

Brian A
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hugowolf
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2013, 07:53:45 PM »
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you're probably looking at canson-infinity.com and they show the inkjet papers *only*.

Canson makes a bunch more true 'art' papers (watercolor, canvas) that are not inkjet coated; I'm guessing that
is what he is referring to (en.canson.com)

Yep, Canson-Infinty vs Canson. As I stated earlier, the uncoated paper is available in three pressings, the inkjet coated paper is only available in coarse. Some uncoated papers work really well as inkjet papers, others do not, you have to experiment. I used to have a list from art school, of those that did and those that didn't.

Brian A
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hugowolf
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2013, 08:08:40 PM »
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I've got WT and Aquarelle in my hands and the WT is coarser IMO.  Like it's got little 'points'.
Missed the little 'points', which is interesting, Hahnemuhle German Etching is also more pointy then most, but not as deeply textured as many other papers. Maybe part of Hahnemuhle's process.

Brian A
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 10:29:35 AM by hugowolf » Logged
texshooter
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2013, 12:18:41 AM »
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I wish paper manufacturers would use a different term to describe the feel of the paper. For example, I just bought a whole box of Ilford Prestige Fine Art Textured thinking it just might have a textured feel, but no. It might have visual texture compared to its "smooth" counterpart, but IMO it feels smooth, just like 99% of all the other matte "textured" papers on the market. What I've come to learn is if the paper is not 100% cotton, it's probably not rough to the touch. The word "textured" is vague and usually means the surface is not absolutely flat, not that it has a coarse tactility.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2013, 03:25:46 AM »
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I wish paper manufacturers would use a different term to describe the feel of the paper. For example, I just bought a whole box of Ilford Prestige Fine Art Textured thinking it just might have a textured feel, but no. It might have visual texture compared to its "smooth" counterpart, but IMO it feels smooth, just like 99% of all the other matte "textured" papers on the market. What I've come to learn is if the paper is not 100% cotton, it's probably not rough to the touch. The word "textured" is vague and usually means the surface is not absolutely flat, not that it has a coarse tactility.

Ilford's Prestige range introduction showed flaws in documentation texts, sample books and packaging. I mentioned a texture confusion in another thread about the Monochrome paper. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=70745.0
quote of my text: >>One sample of the Ilford sample book I brought back from the Photokina is a 190gsm textured, 100% cotton paper which has the following  name printed on it: Smooth Fine Art. The texture is actually coarser than 220gsm Fine Art Textured. I made a mistake on the name in my first message but it is that sample I had in mind. There is also a 310gsm Smooth Fine Art Matt sample in that book that is really smooth. I think the first sample mentioned has a wrong imprint on it or the name is plain wrong.<<

In general it is almost impossible to describe all paper textures. Frequency, direction (Sugar Cane), depth, sharp tops, rounded tops, regularity in pattern or not, artificially pressed, embossed or natural formation etc and you still will not get the visual and tactile experience samples give. I was thinking about scans of paper textures to add to the SpectrumViz category or digital takes with light from aside but there must be a better way. RIT tried it but it could be improved in my opinion: http://digitalsamplebook.com

German Etching is an alpha cellulose paper with a nice texture. There are more examples. I do not see a direct relation to cotton or alpha cellulose for smooth or textured papers. The smoothest papers could be industrial made ECF qualities that fall in another category, usually with thinner inkjet coatings too.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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iluvmycam
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2013, 06:05:26 AM »
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OP...It will flake like hell. Got to spray them and spray some more.
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Damir
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2013, 07:24:12 AM »
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Maybe something like that will help:

http://fot-o-grafiti.hr/nauci/ispis/papiri-za-tintni-ispis

I had an idea to make sample photos of all papers I have in stock, but on the way other projects I had to run was more important.

What do you think, is it helpfull?
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hugowolf
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2013, 10:38:34 AM »
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So interesting observations Ernst, however ...
... I do not see a direct relation to cotton or alpha cellulose for smooth or textured papers. The smoothest papers could be industrial made ECF qualities that fall in another category, usually with thinner inkjet coatings too.
I have never seen an inkjet coated cotton based paper that is as smooth as say an office bond paper, or papers like Epson single and double weight matte. Is there a cotton paper that is smoother than Hahnemuhle Ultra Smooth?

Brian A
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 02:34:20 AM »
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So interesting observations Ernst, however ...I have never seen an inkjet coated cotton based paper that is as smooth as say an office bond paper, or papers like Epson single and double weight matte. Is there a cotton paper that is smoother than Hahnemuhle Ultra Smooth?

Brian A

That is what I wrote in the line with ECF qualities, didn't I?

Within the category of fine art papers I do not see a direct relation to alpha cellulose for smooth papers and cotton for rougher papers. Bamboo, Sugar Cane, German Etching are in essence alpha cellulose papers. In SpectrumViz I count 30 AC texture papers and 36 Cotton texture papers. In the smooth category 4 AC and an estimated 40 in Cotton.

Warm papers more often have a cotton base, that is something I noticed. In Fiber/Baryta papers that is even more pronounced.

As smooth as HM Ultra Smooth. Canson Rag Photographique, Satiné and Hot Pressed papers from Museo, Bergger, Premier, etc. My tactile device (thumb) can not measure a ranking within that selection.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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hugowolf
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2013, 01:08:16 PM »
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That is what I wrote in the line with ECF qualities, didn't I?
Perhaps my ignorance. Is there anything to prevent a wood pulp based fine art paper from being ECF?

As smooth as HM Ultra Smooth. Canson Rag Photographique, Satiné and Hot Pressed papers from Museo, Bergger, Premier, etc. My tactile device (thumb) can not measure a ranking within that selection.
Ahh, not 'as smooth' , but 'smoother than'. Hahnemühle Ultra Smooth is smoother than Canson Rag Photographique, which is smoother than Hahnemühle Photo rag 308. I am looking for something smoother than all three.

Brian A
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texshooter
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2013, 10:30:45 PM »
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quote of my text: >>One sample of the Ilford sample book I brought back from the Photokina is a 190gsm textured, 100% cotton paper which has the following  name printed on it: Smooth Fine Art. The texture is actually coarser than 220gsm Fine Art Textured. I made a mistake on the name in my first message but it is that sample I had in mind. There is also a 310gsm Smooth Fine Art Matt sample in that book that is really smooth. I think the first sample mentioned has a wrong imprint on it or the name is plain wrong.

I thought I was losing my mind when I felt the Smooth Fine Art. It is definitely rougher than the Fine Art Textured. A paradox, indeed.
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Colorwave
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2013, 11:02:31 PM »
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The most heavily textured paper that I use is Fineline Coarse Art Natural, which is the exact same paper as Sunset Textured Fine Art paper (310gsm).  I have no doubt that there are other brands that slap a different label on this same paper.  I'd describe the texture as a very deep and large scale orange peel texture.  For some reason, the 36" and 44" rolls always seem to have a softer and more pleasing texture than the 24" rolls, as if the manufacturing process is somehow different between them.  It seems to come closest to the heavily textured watercolor papers many of my clients use.

My favorite textured paper is Hahnemuhle Museum Etching, which has a strong eggshell texture, and is a bit smoother than William Turner (which seems to be the same paper that HP once sold as Textured Fine Art).  Museum Etching is a very substantial 350gsm and it makes lovely prints.
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