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Author Topic: LR 5 Public Beta is live.  (Read 27442 times)
Schewe
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« Reply #120 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:43 PM »
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The Beta is OS 10.7(Lion)+ compatible only, is it confirmed that this will remain the case in the final release?

Yes, 10.7+ only...and truth be told, the upgrade from 10.6.8 to 10.7.5 was really pretty painless. I still have a 10.6.8 boot drive for running PPC code in Rosetta, but I have't booted into 10.6.8 in 2 months.

Rumor has it 10.9 isn't too far away...at 10.6.8 toy are 3 OS's behind soon to be 4. You will find more and more lack of support for 10.6.8. You would do yourself a favor not to lag so far behind....
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schrodingerscat
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« Reply #121 on: April 26, 2013, 05:17:16 PM »
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Thanks for the replies.

I know, I will be assimilated...

Just don't like being herded down a path I might not like , especially when the main motivations are control and profit. Do I really want to trust my data to an industry where the bottom line is paramount? The cloud thing only works as well as the security and maintenance used to support the server farms. Just about every major corporation, including the tech and financial industries, has been hacked. Microsoft was taken down completely for over an hour. Security and maintenance are on the minus side of the balance sheet and Wallstreet don't like that. Then there are the self induced outages and FUBARs. Corporate culture still doesn't quite get digital. Or maybe they do.

In my most paranoid scenario, once the transition to clouding is well on it's way our data will just become another commodity, traded between companies much like mortgages are now. Just because you sign a contract with a service to store your data, doesn't mean that a few years from now that company still has it or even exists(ask Seth Resnick). Social media is paving the way to that outcome.
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Schewe
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« Reply #122 on: April 26, 2013, 06:12:57 PM »
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Just don't like being herded down a path I might not like , especially when the main motivations are control and profit. Do I really want to trust my data to an industry where the bottom line is paramount?

So, who do you blame, Adobe for supporting current OS's or Apple for forcing users to adopt new OS's? Adobe started developing LR5 and chose to only support the OS's that provided the system level tools that LR5 was developed for–10.7+. LR4 dropped support for Windows XP...LR5 dropped support for Mac before 10.7. There are both financial and technical reasons for these choices...if you see this as a wide spread conspiracy, I suggest wearing tin foil hats and avoid black helicopters because clearly, they are out to get you...

In the meantime, LR5 is a useful although not hug upgrade to LR4. Course, since your system isn't supported, you can't discover this for yourself. In the meantime, I suggest you reevaluate your position on not upgrading your OS. Seem penny wise and pound foolish.
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schrodingerscat
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« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2013, 08:28:59 PM »
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Hi Jeff -

Not blaming anyone, or seeing a conspiracy. As often repeated in Prizzi's Honor(great film, by the way) - "It's business"

I know I'll have to bite the bullet one day, just not expecting to have to do it due to a photo post processing app. My main point was that 10.6 is not that long in the tooth, and most of the changes in Lion.x seem more for user control than anything else. Not counting turning your computer into a big iPad. Haven't seen much about increasing overall performance.

Usta hang out on the beach at San Onofre, and if you've ever seen an OD green Marine helicopter backlit, they look black and you can't see the markings. And no, I don't glow in the dark.

SC

PS - I'm not paranoid, I know they're out to get me...
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Schewe
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« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2013, 12:30:43 AM »
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I know I'll have to bite the bullet one day, just not expecting to have to do it due to a photo post processing app. My main point was that 10.6 is not that long in the tooth, and most of the changes in Lion.x seem more for user control than anything else.

Again, you make it harder on yourself, the longer you delay upgrading...you get comfortable and then find yourself in a situation where you are forced to upgrade before you want to and develop a sense of anxiety and resistance to change. I know, been there, done that, got the Teeshirt.

Fact is, Lion isn't so bad and so far is performing better/smoother than 10.6.8 on my 2009 MacPro Tower (with 18.8.4 working fine on my 2011 MacBook Pro). There are more 64-bit libraries in 10.7.x so certain system level functions are faster and apps get an advantage of those libraries too (think LR5).

Yes, I don't care about 90% of Lion and dislike 10.8.x, but I dislike 10.8.x less than Windows 7 (don't get me started on Win Cool.

I was reluctant to upgrade my main workstation to 10.7. But when I first got the LR5 beta system requirements, I said, ok...push comes to shove, I'll update. I had saved a Lion "Emergency" installer from when I updated my laptop, so it wasn't all that tough. I set up a dual-boot and went ahead and upgraded. I actually think 10.7.x is better in terms of performance compared to 10.6.8.

Yes, the way Apple is moving forward is irritating...you can only update to 10.7 from 10.6. So anybody running 10.5 must do a two OS jump. OS 10.7 & 10.8 can only be bought via the App Store...and you have to jump through hoops to actually get a real installer.

But, this isn't Adobe's fault...lay the blame at Apple's feet. But, you should really think about moving forward...I "think" you can still get a Lion installer on a thumb drive from an Apple store...backup your boot drive, make sure it's bootable, then do the 10.7 update and make sure all the incremental upgrades to get to 10.7.5. You can upgrade either you main boot drive or your boot backup (as long as you are booted from the backup–you can only upgrade the current boot drive with 10.7/10.Cool.

Seriously, it wasn't painful...the only thing I had to do was learn how to make my user/Library visible using Terminal and then learn how to turn off all the Lion crap I don't want/need.

But, the longer you wait, the more painful it will be when you are forced to do so.
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BJL
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« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2013, 10:10:49 AM »
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Again, you make it harder on yourself, the longer you delay upgrading...you get comfortable and then find yourself in a situation where you are forced to upgrade before you want to and develop a sense of anxiety and resistance to change.

Agreed: Apple's new model clearly favors making frequent, _cheap_ OS upgrades, in pursuit of the ideal that every Mac is running the same version of OS X, with obvious simpifications for users, developers, and sysadmins like me. In other words, the model used with iOS and all other successful mobile device operating systems.

Yes, the way Apple is moving forward is irritating...you can only update to 10.7 from 10.6. So anybody running 10.5 must do a two OS jump. ...
On the other hand, that two OS jump only costs about half as much as a single one of the old bigger, biennial OS X upgrades used to cost. In those days I usually went two versions between OS X upgrades, waiting until new software needed a new OS version, but to paraphrase Steve Jobs, if you are still doing it that way, "you are doing it wrong". I now recommend making each OS X update as soon as the dust has settled and I am reassured that no relevant software has compatibility problems with the new OS X version.

P. S. This does not help people who have a need to run the latest versions of software on Mac hardware that is five or more years old --- the blame there is I think with the overdue update of the Mac Pro line.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 10:12:53 AM by BJL » Logged
aragdog
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« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2013, 10:53:01 AM »
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Hey Jeff and Michael, time for a few videos of Lightroom 5?  You might want to add some stuff to the great one you did on Lightroom 4.

Just a suggestion.
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CatOne
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« Reply #127 on: April 27, 2013, 10:05:22 PM »
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I know I'll have to bite the bullet one day, just not expecting to have to do it due to a photo post processing app. My main point was that 10.6 is not that long in the tooth, and most of the changes in Lion.x seem more for user control than anything else.


This isn't true.  There are SUBSTANTIAL API changes under the hood, that allow developers to make faster, more maintainable, better applications.  These things are not visible to end users, but the facilitate better software, with less code, and are the reasons end users will need to end up upgrading.

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Not counting turning your computer into a big iPad. Haven't seen much about increasing overall performance.


Lion and Mountain Lion are every bit as usable as is Snow Leopard.  I really don't get this line of reasoning (or accusation, or whatever you call it).  The OS is faster, and is in no way "dumbed down" or more iPad like.

Also, using iCloud and storing your data in the cloud (with applications that support iCloud) is totally optional.  You don't need to enable it, and if you don't all you lose is the ability to store your documents in the cloud and sync things like documents and mail settings across your computers.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #128 on: April 27, 2013, 11:23:15 PM »
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Update to the latest OSX and be over it ;-)

-h
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Schewe
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« Reply #129 on: April 27, 2013, 11:47:15 PM »
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This isn't true.  There are SUBSTANTIAL API changes under the hood, that allow developers to make faster, more maintainable, better applications.  These things are not visible to end users, but the facilitate better software, with less code, and are the reasons end users will need to end up upgrading.

Cat...thanks. I was trying to explain this relating to 10.7 being "better" than 10.6.x and why LR5 dropped 10.6.x because the OS level services...and yes, there's a LOT of under the hood stuff that Apple moved from 10.6.8 to 10.7.5. The 64-bit libraries and the low level OS services are significant improvements for recent Mac CPUs...
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jaapb
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« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2013, 01:12:48 AM »
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The 64-bit libraries and the low level OS services are significant improvements for recent Mac CPUs...

Jeff,

While true and good to have innovations going (we all want LR to run decently fast), what is Apple's take on color management other than breaking things.

Based on a recent bad experience with Keynote in terms of color management, and communications with Apple, I have no faith this company gives a poop about color management any more. Just not on their radar.


Andrew got me a bit worried here. I am now reluctant to apply point updates in OSX 10.8 let alone installing future 10.9.

Jaap
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Schewe
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« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2013, 01:27:02 AM »
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While true and good to have innovations going (we all want LR to run decently fast), what is Apple's take on color management other than breaking things.

Andrew got me a bit worried here. I am now reluctant to apply point updates in OSX 10.8 let alone installing future 10.9.

10.7.5 and 10.8.4 is fine...as long as you understand the implications. But as it relates to current Epson printers, PS CS6, LR4 & LR5 beta, I have no particular CM at the moment (note, I no longer rely on any Rosetta apps).
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jaapb
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« Reply #132 on: May 02, 2013, 04:15:05 AM »
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10.7.5 and 10.8.4 is fine...as long as you understand the implications.

Thank you Jeff,

Well I understand implications, but obviously most of us don't know what Apple is up to and it doesn't bode well from what Andrew seems to (not) get back from Apple. So it will be a matter of cautiously updating/upgrading OSX as well as LR in the future especially if there is a technical dependency as now with LR5b.
Good luck with the Upright shots  Wink (BTW are you planning to use a T/S lens too?)

Jaap
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Schewe
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« Reply #133 on: May 02, 2013, 04:17:50 AM »
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Good luck with the Upright shots  Wink (BTW are you planning to use a T/S lens too?)

Naw, that would be cheating what Upright can do...we want to challenge Upright, not give it an easy time!
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #134 on: May 02, 2013, 08:38:58 AM »
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Naw, that would be cheating what Upright can do...we want to challenge Upright, not give it an easy time!

Hi Jeff,

What Jaap probably was curious about, and it's quite relevant if that was his motivation for asking, is how much loss is involved with resampling (still bicubic?) compared to the real thing, optical data. It would most certainly be interesting for some people to actually see what the compromise amounts to, and if it therefore is a usable alternative.

One might even compare to a better (although less convenient) software solution, in the form of a Panorama Stitcher's perspective correction, which can use higher quality resampling algorithms.

Why stop at making a video tutorial that shows the software at work (we can try that ourselves), instead of adding some really useful information about image quality and trade-offs?

Cheers,
Bart
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madmanchan
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« Reply #135 on: May 02, 2013, 12:19:16 PM »
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There is always going to be some loss of resolution resampling image data (or preservation of detail along with artifacts).  On the other hand, Upright can also provide results (in terms of scene content) that would have been hard to get directly via an optical system.  So it is a tradeoff, with each approach having its pros and cons.
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jaapb
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« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2013, 02:05:34 PM »
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Hi Jeff,

What Jaap probably was curious about, and it's quite relevant if that was his motivation for asking, is how much loss is involved with resampling (still bicubic?) compared to the real thing, optical data. It would most certainly be interesting for some people to actually see what the compromise amounts to, and if it therefore is a usable alternative.

Hi Bart,

You are right, I am looking for a T/S lens to pair with my D800. The new Samyang/Rokinon 24mm T/S seems interesting. From that perspective  Wink I am interested to find out what the capabilities of Upright are in architectural imaging as opposed to traditional optical methods. Obviously I have to do my own testing and maybe both methods can even complement each other, but first I will sit back and watch Chicago being Uprighted.

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On the other hand, Upright can also provide results (in terms of scene content) that would have been hard to get directly via an optical system.

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the pointer, makes sense as we are seeing more and more image adaptive processing. Still I 'd like to see a side by side Upright and T/S (and HDR and stitching in LR Grin)

Jaap




 
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2013, 02:12:08 PM »
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There is always going to be some loss of resolution resampling image data (or preservation of detail along with artifacts).

Hi Eric,

Yes, I know it is somewhat inevitable, but the choice of resampling algorithm does make a difference. As an example we can get an idea about the aliasing effects of a few different algorithms shown here.

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On the other hand, Upright can also provide results (in terms of scene content) that would have been hard to get directly via an optical system.

I'm not sure what you are referring to.

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So it is a tradeoff, with each approach having its pros and cons.

Indeed, and there is a place for both. I think it is useful to know the limitations of each option when we still have a choice.

Cheers,
Bart
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2013, 03:55:06 PM »
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If the sensor is e.g. 4000x5000 sensels, and the geometry of the scene means that you can effectively use only 2500 sensels in the top and 5000 sensels along the bottom, then you will never regain that information in an image scaler. A T/S-lense, however, may ideally be able to employ all available pixels, if its distortion maps exactly to the distortion that you need to do?

For some of us, the cost/flexibility of software may make it the only option.

For others, IQ concerns or the feeling of doing things in the field (rather than in front of a computer) may make a T/S lense worth it.

I am more interested in a T/S lense for what it does that cannot (practically) be done with single-image image-processing: tilting and "beating" diffraction limits.

-h
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schrodingerscat
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« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2013, 07:51:22 PM »
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Cat...thanks. I was trying to explain this relating to 10.7 being "better" than 10.6.x and why LR5 dropped 10.6.x because the OS level services...and yes, there's a LOT of under the hood stuff that Apple moved from 10.6.8 to 10.7.5. The 64-bit libraries and the low level OS services are significant improvements for recent Mac CPUs...

Thanks Jeff and Cat -

This was the sort of info I was looking for. I'm not against change per se, but want a good reason for doing so. If moving to 10.8 has actual benefits insofar as working with LR5, then I'm prepared to move my anticipated upgrade to sooner rather than later. Thinking about picking up the 10.8.4 download to check out on my i7 MBP.

Not a complete Luddite, got my first DOS machine in early the 90s and my first Apple was a IIcx with a 24" Rasterops CRT running OS7. The first new Mac was a G3 Yosemite with the matching monitor, right after it was introduced. From there it was a G4 tower and LCD, Cube, variety of Minis and iMacs, laptops, and a MP Quad. Have performed all repairs myself and have upgraded everything from CPUs on down. My first digital camera was purchased in 1999.

SC
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