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Author Topic: RX100 Video shooting  (Read 5353 times)
FrankG
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« on: April 17, 2013, 07:59:40 PM »
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Are there any RX100 video  shooters out there that can share their experiences using this camera for video?
I'm trying to get up to speed.

The Record setting 1080P (1,920 x 1,080) HD at 60P (59.94p progressive-scan) frames/second seems the way to go for best quality / cimematic (film) look according some stuff I've read via google.
Specs here: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-rx100/sony-rx100VIDEO.HTM

I understand that there's the general rule-of-thumb - 2x the frame rate, which in this case would be 1/125th sec. - this seems a little fast and more suitable to fast action or sports.
I am primarily interested in 'talking portraits' with some panning and tilting. Not too slow shutter though to avoid any motion blur. So I guess 1/60th sec or 1/50th ?
What shutter speeds are you using?

Then there is the bringing the footage into Quicktime Pro or FCP or whatever post program.
Do I bring it in at 59.94 / 60 fps or at 30 fps or ? If 1/30th after having shot at 1/60 or 1/125 that constitutes an effect rather than 'normal' right?
There is a program (probably several) called Clipwrap that can take the Sony AVCHD file with a .MTS extension and transcode it to .MOV or whatever

Also, ....Since you can press the movie button while you're in any of the stills modes - P, A S, M I don't really get why there is a dedicated video mode on the dial too? Does it allow you access to something?

Thanks
Can you inform me?
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 05:33:24 AM »
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Hi,

I guess that, talking about a pocket CAM,
That the 1080 60p is not "real". 1080 60p
Ian't a standart. You'd use it for slow-mo into
A 1080 30p
Or to bring the footage into a 720 60p
Project.

The shutter speed has to have a compromise
Between Blur and strobe effect, in normal
Situations wich leads to 1/50 or 1/60. In specific
Situations like high-contrast scenes, you can
Affect the "golden rule".
The choice of your shutter speed has to do with
Your country light frequency. In europe you
Will choose 1/50 but in the USA 1/60.

Your NLE Project should match with your capture.
So it would be:
Or a 1080 30p for slow-mo, or a 720 60p at regular
Speed.
Why not a 1080 60p then ? Because it's not
A standart and because this camera is more
Likely a 720 real resolution at that framrate,
Upsampled at 1080.

Idealy, your capture settings should match the
Delivery ones.

Best luck.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:01:52 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
FrankG
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 08:26:45 AM »
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Thank you for the reply.
But I am not clear.

"That the 1080 60p is not "real". 1080 60p
Ian't a standart. You'd use it for slow-mo into
A 1080 30p


Are you saying that shooting at the 1080 60P setting isn't for playing back 'normal' video action but that it is for slowing down to 30fps slow motion ?

Your NLE Project should match with your capture.
So it would be:
Or a 1080 30p for slow-mo, or a 720 60p at regular
Speed.


Are you saying that for 'normal' video playback action I need to shoot at 720 60p?
If you look at the camera's specs (link in original post) I dont see that as an option ??

then
Transcode what needed, for ex to prores.
It won't ad any datas but will stop further
Degradations and your edit will be more stable.


I can do this - from the sony mts files to prores.

I must admit to still not grasping the 'big picture' and understanding how to set the 'record settings, fps..."
I found this, which I think is kinda what you you're saying but not sure -

"RECORD SETTINGS
The Sony RX100 can shoot movies in two different formats, MP4 and AVCHD. All MP4 options are below 1080p resolution though, so I won't get into those. In AVCHD mode however, we get 3 different 1080 options:

60i 24M (FX) (60i @ 24Mbps, Blu-Ray AVCHD disc compliant)

60i 17M (FH) (60i @ 17Mbps, DVD AVCHD disc compliant)

60p 28M (PS) (60p @ 28Mbps, Progressive Scan)

So it seems like we get 60i at 17Mbps and 24Mbps, and we get 60p at 28Mbps, but not really…
The 60i mode is actually capturing 30p images out of the sensor and encoding them as 60i footage, this means that we do end up with interlaced footage, but since it was captured progressively, de-interlacing it will produce a clean 30p image!

So if we're looking for the best possible video out of the RX100, we should use 60i 24M for 30fps video and 60p 28M for 60fps video.
In theory, shooting 60i 24M gives us the best bitrate per frame in this camera, almost twice as much as shooting 60p 28M.
Shooting 60fps however would have neighboring frames changing less than when shooting 30fps, helping the encoder do a better job, but still the per frame bitrate is lower,"


I feel like I just went down a rabbitt hole
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FrankG
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 02:10:50 PM »
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Thank you so much for walking me through this. Much appreciated.


PS mode 1080 60p, 1/60 shutter speed if you're in north america.
Got it

You can just imgest 1080 60p material in a 720 60p timeline wich yes is a standart.

Is this what you mean by putting the file in 720?
I don't have an edit program yet and will be sending the files to someone else (I assume they have FCP)

I have the mov file open in QuickTime Pro and am ready to export it
QTPro>Export>>Export Size Settings>Dimensions>I have 2x available size settings that are 720 - one is called 1280x720HD & the other is HD1280x720 16:9.
Not sure which to use?
They are both 16:9 aspect ratio.
What is the difference?

Personaly with this cam I'd do:
PS mode
 slow-mo = 1080 30/25p project
Regular speed: 720 60/50p project. (yes the
1080 footage will be downsized to 720 but it's hd
Aspect ratio anyway).


The 1080 50/60p is IMO not going to be sharper nor more detailled than the 720p project.(even upsampled but that's something you could try) because I strongly doubt
That this kind of pocket cams are recording at that frame
Rate in full hd real resolution. Yes they output a 1080
File but it's big marketing. Don't know the effective
Reso but I bet it should be 720ish.


I don't have 720 as an in-camera shooting setting.
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 03:50:09 PM »
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About this QT 2 settings it's the same. Just that the HD 16:9 is supposed to clean the frame edge from artefacts that the Apple cosmetic bureau called "Clean" or "clean aperture"... (doing in fact a slight crop).  You'll see that both export a 1280x720 but the HD1280x720 16:9 is slightly cropped in the edges (1248x702) while the 1280x720HD is normal.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4265?viewlocale=en_US
1280x720HD is complete so stick with this one.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:03:22 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
FrankG
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 09:18:33 PM »
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Ok thanks again. Please let me try and recap and get this workflow straight -

RX100
File format =AVCHD
Record setting= 60P 28M(PS) [this is 60fps?]

Sony clips are in MTS file format and need to be transcoded to MOV.
Re-wrap (don't alter video samples) (H.264 I think)
or in ProRes (see screenshot).
Select ProRes?

Open the MOV file in Quicktime Pro and Export> Movie to Quicktime Movie> click Options
Export Settings-
For 'normal motion'  select 60fps, or Current - which I think Movie Inspector shows as 59.94 (see screenshot)?
For 'slowed motion'  select 30fps (see screenshot)
For Size select 1280x720 HD (see screenshot)

This would work for delivering the clips to an editor using FCP?

For compression - select compression based on the end use/user - H.264, ProRes, AIC ?
For editor/editing - ProRes ?
For iMovie or burning clips to DVD to watch on a TV - AIC (apple intermediate)?
For YouTube - H.264

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fredjeang2
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 04:40:20 AM »
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Hi,

Yes Prores 422 is your best bet for both editing and color correct.





« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:03:44 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
KevinA
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 05:39:02 AM »
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I shot along side a Canon 1DX in my garden as an experiment, the difference was small. Slightly less dr from the Sony. The frame rate  could be an issue. It punches above it's weight.
On Play back all things considered I preferred the little Sony.
You could with effort turn a very decent movie out with the Sony, it has a degree of image stabilisation, a lens that covers enough zoom to be interesting. Worth having in your pocket, my one goes everywhere with me.

I've ordered the BM pocket Cinema camera, small and promises quality. My DSLR for stills (The sony is no also ran in that department either)BM for moving image.
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Kevin.
FrankG
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 07:08:38 AM »
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Hi,

Yes Prores 422 is your best bet for both editing and color correct.

But as you say that you're not going to edit yourself, I really encourage you to talk to your editor previous
you do a DIT task, if you're not yet familiar with all that.

It's easy, very easy, to make mistakes. The metadatas area is important and many problems
can happen within manipulations, like changing folder structures, bad renamings etc etc...
This DIT takes a long learning curve.

You keep your originals intacts anyway. Always.

So before putting yourself into transcodes, talk to the person who will edit first.
Depending on the goal-budget, it may not be necessary at all a transcode and you can
decide to just work natively with the .MTS (if the NLE that will be used allows).

There is no one workflow but options that can fluctuate according to each project.
That way, being next to your editor, you'll learn things and you'll avoid
loosing time and the possibility that the editor has to re-do or un-do.

Best luck.

Thank you for all this really good guidance and advice.Especially about keeping originals intact and consulting with an editor. beforehand

But I want to get it straight pre- editing because sometimes I want to just play clips on my computer, or put them on disc to play on my TV (hd) set, or share with others

May I just ask you to look at my previous reply, with specs, and confirm if I have the fps (recording & playback) correct ie if that recording setting is 60fps (60 p) then then I must choose same in QT because if it's 30 it''ll be slowed down?
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FrankG
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2013, 07:39:00 AM »
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I shot along side a Canon 1DX in my garden as an experiment, the difference was small. Slightly less dr from the Sony. The frame rate  could be an issue. It punches above it's weight.
On Play back all things considered I preferred the little Sony.
Kevin,
I too am a stills photographer and have the Canon 5D2. But the Sony RX100 is always in my pocket and i have done some excellent images (still) with it. A bit noisy above 400iso for my taste but what can i expect...
As you can see from the thread I have no video experience and am  trying to get some basic questions cleared up.
If you would share your Sony recording settings and what your workflow is with the MTS files onwards.... that would be great
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2013, 10:09:48 AM »
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1080 50/60 p is Cutting edge.

Your Camera should records 59.94
Project could be
Or 720 59.94
Or 1080 29.98 for slow-mo both progressive.
To meet your standarts in the US.

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FrankG
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 11:11:20 AM »
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Project could be
720 59.94

If computer resources & editor could handle it, could it also be the larger size/dimensions at 59.94?

Or 1080 29.98 for slow-mo both progressive.
Could it be 720 29.98 for slow-mo?

Is the 1280x720 OR 1020x1080  not just a size/dimension difference, with either being able to be in normal or slow-mo depending on whether the project is 59.94 or 29.98 ??



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FrankG
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 12:13:07 PM »
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Thank you again.
I'm not out of the woods but I definitely have a better idea.
But I'm also now convinced that I have gone down a rabbit hole :-)
do you know that lewis carroll story? :-)
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FrankG
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 12:29:29 PM »
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An allusion to Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland (or more correctly 'Alice's adventures in wonderland'). To go "down the rabbit hole" is to enter a period of chaos or confusion. Where things don't make sense. The story tells of a girl named Alice who falls down a rabbit hole into a fantasy world populated by peculiar, anthropomorphic creatures. :-)
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FrankG
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 02:12:51 PM »
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If you're interested in looking at these two pages - they dont seem to say the exact same thing that we've been talking about

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/1955-sony-rx100-getting-the-best-video-out-of-it/
this one talks about 50i 24M being the highest quality (60i here) & 25fps playback (30 here)
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FrankG
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2013, 02:14:31 PM »
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oops! i left out this one

http://rungunshoot.com/how-to-set-up-your-sony-rx100-for-cinematic-video/
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FrankG
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2013, 05:20:12 PM »
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Would you consider the canon eos 5D mark II as "real" 1080 hd ?
Or also upscaled from a smaller dimension ?

I think this records at 30 (29.97) fps (instead of the sony rx100 at 60)

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/eos5dmarkii_moviemode_article.shtml
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2013, 05:40:46 PM »
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..
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:05:50 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
FrankG
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2013, 05:50:41 PM »
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I see the difference !
I have been a still photographer for a very long time :-)

But yes  I take your point. There isnt much in it when the image is moving for the general viewer
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2013, 06:02:55 PM »
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I see the difference !
I have been a still photographer for a very long time :-)

But yes  I take your point. There isnt much in it when the image is moving for the general viewer

Exactly. The key point is that it moves. In static, difference is there, 720 upsized is softer than original at full HD. But in movement it's hardly noticiable. (except for the people involved in this business, same happens in still imagery)
So it's up to you to decide.

It's a compromise. 720p will give you the smoothest and most "modern" look and a very good 720 standart while the FX setting a slight jump in resolution but less frames recorded. That would be this latest for narrative.


Those are the metadatas (sorry it's in spanish)
MPEG-4
Formato del perfil : QuickTime
ID Códec : qt  
Tamaño del archivo : 37,4MB
Duración : 12seg.
Modo de tasa de bits : Variable
Tasa de bits total : 26,0Mbps
Fecha de codificación : UTC 2013-01-28 06:20:42
Fecha de la etiqueta : UTC 2013-01-28 06:20:47
Librería de codificación : Apple QuickTime 7.7.1
ID : 2
Formato : AVC
Formato/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Formato del perfil : High@L4.2
Ajustes del formato, CABAC : Si
Ajustes del formato, RefFrames : 2marcos
Format_Settings_GOP : M=1, N=12
Modo Muxing : Container profile=High@4.0
ID Códec : avc1
ID Códec/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duración : 12seg.
Source_Duration/String : 12seg.
Tipo de tasa de bits : Variable
Tasa de bits : 25,0Mbps
Tasa de bits máxima : 26,0Mbps
Ancho : 1 920pixeles
Alto : 1 080pixeles
Relación de aspecto : 16:9
Modo de velocidad de cuadro : Constante
Velocidad de cuadro : 50,000fps
ColorSpace : YUV
ChromaSubsampling : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String : 8bits
Tipo de exploración : Progresivo
Bits/(Pixel*cuadro) : 0.241
Tamaño de pista : 35,8MB (96%)
Source_StreamSize/String : 37,4MB (100%)
Idioma : Inglés
Fecha de codificación : UTC 2013-01-28 06:18:45
Fecha de la etiqueta : UTC 2013-01-28 06:20:47
colour_primaries : BT.709
transfer_characteristics : BT.709
matrix_coefficients : BT.709
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 05:06:51 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
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