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Author Topic: Why does Epson waste ink when switching drom PK to MK?  (Read 1761 times)
texshooter
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« on: April 21, 2013, 03:58:41 PM »
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Canon has printers that don't waste ink when switching from PK to MK black ink, so why doesn't Epson have this feature? Does Canon own a patent or something? Soon I will be looking to upgrade my Epson 3800 printer, and it would be nice to have this feature.  Also, why does Canon have chrome optimizer for debronzing while Epson does not?
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 04:06:02 PM »
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Canon has printers that don't waste ink when switching from PK to MK black ink, so why doesn't Epson have this feature?
Different head layouts. ie design philosophies.
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why does Canon have chrome optimizer for debronzing while Epson does not?
Epson offers this on some printers, it's called gloss optimiser. On more recent inks sets they consider their pigment inks not to have major bronzing issues any more due to more advanced formulations.
In my experience I think they're right.
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hugowolf
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 07:02:07 PM »
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Canon has printers that don't waste ink when switching from PK to MK black ink,
Canon and HP don't switch black inks, the have separate PK and MK nozzles.

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so why doesn't Epson have this feature? Does Canon own a patent or something?
No, there is no patent, The Epson 4000 had separate PK and MK nozzles, has does the 60 inch Epson 11880

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Soon I will be looking to upgrade my Epson 3800 printer, and it would be nice to have this feature.  Also, why does Canon have chrome optimizer for debronzing while Epson does not?
It isn't just for bronzing, it also covers gloss differential.

Brian A
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mg73
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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 10:08:10 AM »
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My understanding is that the latest canon printers don't waste ink when switching from PK to MK becasue they have seperate nozzles and seperate feed tubes to those nozzles.  I believe the problem with the lastest epsons is that the PK and MK tank use the same feed tube and thus when you switch the printer flushes the current ink in the tube into the waste tank and then fills it with other ink.  Each time you switch it has to go through this process and thus the waste.

Canon addresses this by having seperate ink lines(tubes) for the PK and MK ink tanks.

That's my understanding, anyway.  That's one of the reasons I bought the canon 8400.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 11:22:30 AM »
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Canon has printers that don't waste ink when switching from PK to MK black ink, so why doesn't Epson have this feature? Does Canon own a patent or something? Soon I will be looking to upgrade my Epson 3800 printer, and it would be nice to have this feature.  Also, why does Canon have chrome optimizer for debronzing while Epson does not?

Because pizo nozzles are expensive and thermal nozzles cheap. An extra channel for  another black ink counts. It also brings more revenue to the company when users drain some ink to the maintenance tank in the PK>MK>PK cycle. In the past an exchange of MK to PK was even more expensive as the total tube length had to be refilled + additional cleaning steps + a maintenance tank to replace.

Heads for similar speed wide formats;
*HP Z6100, 8 channel = 4 heads, user replaceable for $536, 8.5K nozzles
*Canon iPF, 12 channel = 2 heads, user replaceable for $800, 30.7K nozzles
*Epson 9900, 10 channel = 1 head, for $1300, service man needed, 3.6K nozzles
*half the speed of the above;
  HP Z3200, 12 channel = 6 heads, user replaceable for $444, 12.6K nozzles


Epson had a gloss optimiser in the R1800/800 R1900/900 models. More brands used it, HP-Canon-Kodak, but not on all models. My best guess is that it gave more freedom on the pigment load of the normal inks when a gloss enhancer is used but I expect that progress in ink development makes it no longer necessary. The Canon iPF9400 inks have a better gloss than for example the iPF9100, a generation older printer.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 03:55:49 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
enduser
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 06:07:41 PM »
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We buy pf03 heads from Alibababa, genuine Canon, for US$359 each.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 06:21:52 PM »
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We buy pf03 heads from Alibababa, genuine Canon, for US$359 each.

Interesting....singly or in volume?
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John
GEOFFREYJAMES
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 08:49:05 PM »
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My 4900 keeps telling me I have the wrong ink for the job,  even though nothing has been changed. It is annoying, in a minor way,  and I have no idea how to avoid the problem and the delay while I change inks.
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Justin B
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 09:00:45 PM »
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My 4900 keeps telling me I have the wrong ink for the job,  even though nothing has been changed. It is annoying, in a minor way,  and I have no idea how to avoid the problem and the delay while I change inks.

Nothing has been changed? You aren't switching between different media types in the printer driver? Even if you are, you should be able to see where the driver shows which black ink is going to be used for whichever media type you are selecting before you send it to print in print settings. Are you printing through Photoshop?
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JB
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2013, 11:37:14 PM »
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If your talking about when you are switching from Photo Black to Matte Black etc unplug the USB cord when doing it next time and makesure the Printque is empty if not delete any jobs. Push  and hold the trash button on the printer for 5+ seconds to reset and jobs and or cancel any pending jobs.

makesure you have the proper ink cartridges as they can be faulty from the factory as it does happen and if so bring it back to the store.

Try switching the ink cart black  without doing the step by step process maybe the printer is set to the opposite black?

I had this happen on a 4880 or 4800 of mine and it was because we used a generic ink cartridge/refillable ink cart and this created some errors. Once a New Epson photo and matte black arrived and installed the issue went away in this case. We were using a chip resetter as well with the generic ink/refillable cart.

You are most likely printing from the wrong black ink printer profile driver setting
 
IE: Watercolor Radient White MK 

Then in the print dialog selecting Photo Black or a completely different media Type like Semi-Gloss Photo paper
With: Photo Black selected instead of Watercolor Radient White Media Type and Matte Black.

Otherwise Make sure you have the exact Page size document settings for the sheet size so no resizing and resolution changes are taking place between the printing action and Printer output / Print Dialog box settings.
Paper size In Page Setup
Selecting Sheet Or Roll With or without Borderless Printing
Custom Media Size and have the printer selected while finishing and clicking OK to be safe.
Some printers like 13" Epson Professional imaging models can have odd errors when printing with a custom page size setup if you don't add margins to the dimensions in the Custom media size I know one of mine needed a .025" Margin on each size of the sheet to print properly without spitting the page through over and over or other odd errors.

I hope some of these will help or atleast help in some way. and if not please specify more info about what exactly your issue is and what you do that triggers it. best -Fish
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GEOFFREYJAMES
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 08:47:56 AM »
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Thanks for all the good advice.   I am printing from LR,  and 90% of my work is on Ilford GFS,  very occasionally  on Epson Hot Press Bright.  I try to print every day. Standard Epson cartridges.  I just can't figure out why the settings suddenly change on me.When it happens,  I have to cancel the job, and change the black ink.  Not a big deal,  but I am at a loss as to how the printer switches inks on me.   As I said,  only a minor annoyance, but I can't  figure out what is triggering it.   
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Roscolo
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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 02:11:38 PM »
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Canon has printers that don't waste ink when switching from PK to MK black ink, so why doesn't Epson have this feature?

I think it's primarily because Epson wants you to waste more ink so they get more of your money.
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hugowolf
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 12:38:53 AM »
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Thanks for all the good advice.   I am printing from LR,  and 90% of my work is on Ilford GFS,  very occasionally  on Epson Hot Press Bright.  I try to print every day. Standard Epson cartridges.  I just can't figure out why the settings suddenly change on me.When it happens,  I have to cancel the job, and change the black ink.  Not a big deal,  but I am at a loss as to how the printer switches inks on me.   As I said,  only a minor annoyance, but I can't  figure out what is triggering it.   
A PK/MK switch is based solely on media type selection. If you accidently choose the wrong media, or forget to choose the correct media, then it will switch inks. There should be a warning dialog, but there isn't.

Brian A
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mfryd
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 06:19:05 PM »
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If Epson had separate Photo and Matte Black nozzles, there would be no need to use ink when switching. 

Epson nozzles need to be used or they clog.  If you spent a month printing only glossy, then the Matte Black nozzles would clog.  To prevent this, the printer would need to periodically spit out some matte black ink to keep those nozzles from clogging.   This would waste ink.

For those who rarely change blacks, shared nozzles may wast less ink than dedicated nozzles.

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Tom Montgomery
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 07:20:55 PM »
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[...]  As I said,  only a minor annoyance, but I can't  figure out what is triggering it.   


Are you using several print presets in LR? If so, check to be sure they all have the correct paper profile selected. An incorrect profile can cause the print driver to switch inks.
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