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Author Topic: Pigment printing on glossy and pearl paper - still not recommended?  (Read 4091 times)
The View
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« on: April 21, 2013, 04:00:43 PM »
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When I bought my Canon 9500 mark II I wasn't aware that pigment inks are not good for printing on glossy and pearl surfaces.

Is this still a valid problem?

Ilford Galery Smooth Gloss and Pearl papers say they are good for both pigment and dye inks, but B&H's site states that wide gamut is for dye inks.

I also read that the gloss may be different in black areas and colored areas, and that the blacks often don't look good when printing with pigment inks on smooth surfaces.

Has anybody printed with pigment inks to Ilford papers?

What was your experience?


And: aren't most high end printers pigment printers?
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keith_cooper
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 04:23:36 PM »
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Well, I regularly use lustre finish papers on my Canon 8300, and just recently reviewed the PRO-10 and PRO-1 where gloss/lustre papers are fine.  When I needed to test a very big print on the 8300, I used a spare roll of Epson PGPP - I'd originally had this free with an Epson 9600, where it never looked particularly good (hence why I still had an unused 44" roll)

Gloss papers require a bit more experimentation to avoid obvious gloss differential, but recently I've had an Epson R2000 here to review, and the gloss quality was excellent - I ran off a stack of 5x7 glossy prints (using the gloss coat ink) that look like they could have come from a photo processor.
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deanwork
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 09:01:05 PM »
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I use the gloss fiber papers all the time on my 8300, for years. I used to use the Harmon Baryta exclusively and still use it for smaller prints from sheets. It has the best gloss characteristics of them all and that is even for black and white. I also spray them with the Hahnemuhle spray but that is optional. Today I saw one of the 8x10  neutral prints I did on it over at a clients house and even I was trying figure out whether it was a silver print or one of my prints.

However, I recently reluctantly abandoned it for big prints with rolls. It was a sad decision but I had no choice. The terrible curling and more delicate surface was killing me in wasted prints once the roll was halfway down - scratching in the printer from head strikes.

I have switched to the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl ( brighter white) and Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl (rag gloss with no brighteners). These are working great too without the scratching. The Fine Art Pearl has slightly less texture than the Photorag Pearl but not as smooth as the Harmon.  But I will often use the Harmon for bw work in sizes 16x20 and smaller. I wish they could make this stuff curl less.....

john

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hugowolf
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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 12:21:54 AM »
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It was never 'not recomended'. There is a possibility of gloss differential, not in the blacks, but in the whites (the unprinted areas compard the the areas where ink goes down). And there is a possibility of bronzing, with blacks and often magentas.

That has never meant that pigment ink printing was reserved for matte papers.

Brian A
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neil snape
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 01:00:05 AM »
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The paper and ink combinations are variable. One has to try to know for sure. Years ago HP came out with a nice solution called Gloss Optimizer, which aided the gloss differential between inks to maintain a better reflection uniformity. It works well but introduces it's own problems too.

Canon revised their inks shortly after their first pro pigment printers. Not sure that those inks made it into the 9500 MKII or not. They have reduced the gloss differential problem substantially on many papers.

Some papers though will really shops a lot of problems.

Not a rule, but OEM papers Pearl or Glossy are better than third party as they are tested and designed or specified for the best compromise.
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Mac Mahon
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 06:15:20 AM »
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Has anybody printed with pigment inks to Ilford papers?

What was your experience?

I use the Ilford Gallery Smooth Pearl in my epson 3880 - pigment ink set - and it works pretty well IMHO.  Haven't tried the full glossy one.

Tim
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LarsHansen
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 08:17:25 AM »
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I use the Ilford Gallery Smooth Pearl in my epson 3880 - pigment ink set - and it works pretty well IMHO.  Haven't tried the full glossy one.

Tim

I have same experience with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl on my Epson R3000, but so far only for B/W print. I've used Hahnemuehle FineArt Pearl for colour prints - also works pretty well. Have some Agfa gloss paper that I haven't tried yet.     
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The View
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 12:22:50 AM »
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I use the gloss fiber papers all the time on my 8300, for years. I used to use the Harmon Baryta exclusively and still use it for smaller prints from sheets. It has the best gloss characteristics of them all and that is even for black and white. I also spray them with the Hahnemuhle spray but that is optional. Today I saw one of the 8x10  neutral prints I did on it over at a clients house and even I was trying figure out whether it was a silver print or one of my prints.

However, I recently reluctantly abandoned it for big prints with rolls. It was a sad decision but I had no choice. The terrible curling and more delicate surface was killing me in wasted prints once the roll was halfway down - scratching in the printer from head strikes.

I have switched to the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl ( brighter white) and Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl (rag gloss with no brighteners). These are working great too without the scratching. The Fine Art Pearl has slightly less texture than the Photorag Pearl but not as smooth as the Harmon.  But I will often use the Harmon for bw work in sizes 16x20 and smaller. I wish they could make this stuff curl less.....

john



Thanks for all the replies on this thread!

Hahnemuehle Photorag Pearl and Fine Art Pearl - I guess I'll get a test package from them.

And I will definitely take a look at the Ilford Galerie Pearl that was mentioned on be someone else.

I know it'll be a lot of experimenting until I find my perfect expression on paper (maybe this means buying a different printer as well at some time).

For now, I have to print quickly, so I'll stick to Ilford Galerie... testing glossy, and keeping my options open for Pearl.


Glad to hear that glossy doesn't seem to pose a problem for pigment ink.

I just wonder why B&H notes "wide gamut for dye inks" on Ilford Galerie Papers. Does this mean the gamut on pigment printers is much narrower?
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LarsHansen
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 05:10:09 AM »
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I don't have an answer to your gamut question, but wanted to add a few things.

The Ilford paper is significantly cheaper than the Hahnemuehle. Subjectively, I find the surface of Hahnemuehle FineArt Pearl more appealing and less reflecting as the Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl. I've also found that the Ilford doesn't dry up as smooth as the Hahnemuehle. And finally, the Ilford packaging is problematic - the case of the 25 A3 I bought is simply too soft and it had bended in one end. 2-3 sheets of papers was damaged in the edge and I haven't checked those in the bottom of the package yet. So - handle with care. The Hahnemuehle papers was delivered in a nice hard case and wrapped in a good plastic sheet.    

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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 05:53:42 AM »
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Glad to hear that glossy doesn't seem to pose a problem for pigment ink.

I just wonder why B&H notes "wide gamut for dye inks" on Ilford Galerie Papers. Does this mean the gamut on pigment printers is much narrower?

The Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl is a good match for the HP Z3200 too. Packaging of rolls is alright so far.

B&H can not go wrong with that comment, on almost any paper dye will have a wide gamut. It doesn't say anything about pigment inks, positive or negative.


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.


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