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Author Topic: Where is the discussion of "Vision" in part 2?  (Read 10992 times)
Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2013, 04:44:04 AM »
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All this angst would be avoided, and much time saved, if folks would simply accept the truth: you have it or you haven't.

There are innumerable things in life that I wish I could do but can't - singing and playing guitar or piano would be a fine start. Even separately!

It was ever thus and will remain so.

Rob C

That would be fine if we are trying to find the next Mozart or Picasso.  But I think the article is not aimed at people of this sort.  If only the most talented had a voice the world would be a poorer place, and there is nothing wrong with the many readers on this site picking out a few nuggets of information which might encourage them to think about their photography.  The article has many interesting and valuable insights.  The suggestions of basing work around projects might be a really good idea for a lot of people.  We have to remember that not everyone here has a lot of experience, though I know some of you have enough experience for a whole classroom of students!  Grin If I had a criticism, it would be that I disliked the way it was listed out in a long column of numbered points, almost like a painting by numbers guide to fine art photography.  Why not just write an essay encompassing the points - some of us do have the attention span.

In fact my main problem is probably the phrase Fine Art Photography.  But then I'm not a Fine Art Photographer - too busy taking more mundane pictures to scratch a living!

Jim
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dreed
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2013, 07:14:35 AM »
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As a literary stylist, Mr Briot could perhaps pay more attention to his own observation that "editing is fundamentally ruthless".

:-D

It is interesting that in this installment, it is more verbose when it could have been briefer but in the first, it was the exact opposite (IMHO) - terse when it should have been fuller.

All this angst would be avoided, and much time saved, if folks would simply accept the truth: you have it or you haven't.

There are innumerable things in life that I wish I could do but can't - singing and playing guitar or piano would be a fine start. Even separately!

It was ever thus and will remain so.

Are you saying that you either "have vision" or you don't and that if you don't, you never will?

If that's so, then are you saying the "vision" series of Alain's serves no purpose?
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Isaac
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2013, 12:34:14 PM »
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There are innumerable things in life that I wish I could do but can't - singing and playing guitar or piano would be a fine start.

My guess is that you intend "singing and playing guitar or piano" as examples of "you have it or you haven't" but without knowing more they only seem to be examples of you try to learn it or you don't try to learn it.
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Rob C
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2013, 02:34:46 PM »
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My guess is that you intend "singing and playing guitar or piano" as examples of "you have it or you haven't" but without knowing more they only seem to be examples of you try to learn it or you don't try to learn it.


You've lost me.

I mean that I would love to have the natual talent to sing and/or play at least one instrument, but I can't. I had a guitar at the age of twelve and sold it at around the age of nineteen... In that period I learned which strings were E,A,D,G,B and E. I couldn't even tune the mother. As for singing: I shall never forget as a kid of about five, (singing!) in a Christmas situation, that one of the adults casually remarked that someone was singing flat. Of course, I did the natural thing and denied it could be myself. Oddly, I have no problem spotting when someone else hits a flat note! I suppose that means I could always be a music critic. You now, just like a curator, but different...

;-)

Rob C
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Rob C
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2013, 02:47:09 PM »
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:-D

It is interesting that in this installment, it is more verbose when it could have been briefer but in the first, it was the exact opposite (IMHO) - terse when it should have been fuller.

1.  Are you saying that you either "have vision" or you don't and that if you don't, you never will?

2.  If that's so, then are you saying the "vision" series of Alain's serves no purpose?


1. Pretty much. It's been my experience of people.

2. It serves a purpose even if it simply entertains, fills in time otherwise empty (much as mine is, unfortunately), but in my view, it's all wishful thinking on the part of anyone hoping they can learn to be an artist of any sort if they don't have the innate ability or aptitude for the 'art' in hand... I am totally convinced these sorts of qualities are there from the start and are also self-starting: they show their presence at a pretty early stage in life. Of course, I am separating the two functions of competent camera-handling and creating beautiful images.

Rob C
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Isaac
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2013, 03:10:47 PM »
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I had a guitar at the age of twelve and sold it at around the age of nineteen...

Did you take lessons with a guitar teacher? Did you have guitar lessons at school?

As for singing: I shall never forget as a kid of about five, (singing!) in a Christmas situation, that one of the adults casually remarked that someone was singing flat.

Let's hope that making a small child feel bad about themselves made their day.

Back to the here and now -- Beginner Singing Lessons and BBC Learn to Sing: Step-by-Step Guides.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 03:32:23 PM by Isaac » Logged
LesPalenik
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2013, 03:48:08 PM »
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I think, it's much easier for an accomplished singer to excel in photography, rather than the other way around.
Bryan Adams comes to mind, he took it to royal heights.
 
Failing that, if you still want to get published as a photographer, you could marry a singer. Someone like Paul McCartney.
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Isaac
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2013, 04:18:20 PM »
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Failing that, if you still want to get published as a photographer, you could marry a singer. Someone like Paul McCartney.

Or take a camera to a Rollling Stones party --

"Linda got her first big break as a photographer while working as a receptionist at Town and Country Magazine. She used an unwanted invitation to a Rolling Stones promotional party on the SS Sea Panther on the Hudson River in New York to document the event and photograph the band.

Linda became a professional photographer in the mid-sixties. Her pictures during this period chronicled the musical revolution of the decade.

Whilst working as the house photographer at the Fillmore East in New York City she photographed many iconic musicians including; The Rolling Stones, Otis Redding, B.B. King, The Doors, The Grateful Dead, Frank Zappa, The Beach Boys, The Who, Cream, The Kinks, Traffic, The Byrds, Jimi Hendrix and, ultimately, The Beatles."
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Rob C
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2013, 04:23:47 PM »
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Did you take lessons with a guitar teacher? Did you have guitar lessons at school?Let's hope that making a small child feel bad about themselves made their day.

Back to the here and now -- Beginner Singing Lessons and BBC Learn to Sing: Step-by-Step Guides.

Had lessons for a while when I was given the guitar; the teacher suggested that I take up a fixed-pitch(?) instrument like the squeeze-box instead. Didn't feel any attraction towards the Tyrol... the guitar (black) was going to accompany me on my horse (also black) when I became a cowboy. Instead, I became a photographer; some say there's not a lot of difference.

That Gene Autrey and Roy Rogers have a lot for which to answer.

Rob C
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Isaac
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2013, 05:28:07 PM »
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OK I'm persuaded that the guitar is not for you :-)

However, you can still find your singing voice without too much concern for disturbing the neighbours.
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NancyP
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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2013, 05:48:37 PM »
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Consider the "vision" essay to be a reiteration of things we all know but don't always consciously remember. There's nothing wrong with a little prod now and then.  Wink
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LesPalenik
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« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2013, 10:11:39 PM »
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Quote
"Linda got her first big break as a photographer while working as a receptionist at Town and Country Magazine. She used an unwanted invitation to a Rolling Stones promotional party on the SS Sea Panther on the Hudson River in New York to document the event and photograph the band.

Linda became a professional photographer in the mid-sixties. Her pictures during this period chronicled the musical revolution of the decade.

Whilst working as the house photographer at the Fillmore East in New York City she photographed many iconic musicians including; The Rolling Stones, Otis Redding, B.B. King, The Doors, The Grateful Dead, Frank Zappa, The Beach Boys, The Who, Cream, The Kinks, Traffic, The Byrds, Jimi Hendrix and, ultimately, The Beatles."

Are these factoids?
BTW, we had here an old man photographing celebrities, too. Karsh was his name, and his portraits were quite good.
I liked Linda, especially her cookbook. And she didn't drag Paul onto the ice floes hunting for seal pups. Just to stay on topic, you needed a good vision for that.

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stamper
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« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2013, 04:54:22 AM »
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Consider the "vision" essay to be a reiteration of things we all know but don't always consciously remember. There's nothing wrong with a little prod now and then.  Wink

You hit the nail on the head. One of the problems about learning something is that you forget you have learnt it and an article like the one on the main site acts like a memory jog......and then you forget again till the next article. Smiley One of the problems of growing old.
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dreed
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2013, 09:37:58 AM »
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You hit the nail on the head. One of the problems about learning something is that you forget you have learnt it and an article like the one on the main site acts like a memory jog......and then you forget again till the next article. Smiley One of the problems of growing old.

Even for a child, reading something once is not the way to remember it.

If you expect this of yourself, then you're building bad expectations of yourself.

There are specific time intervals for ensuring something goes into long term memory but I cannot say exactly what they are.
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stamper
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2013, 09:57:33 AM »
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Dreed I didn't expect anything. Did you see the smiley? Anyways why do you think you are entitled to lecture anyone? Shocked
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NancyP
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« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2013, 10:31:08 AM »
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There are plenty of times when one forgets to do something that is known "by heart". We all try to be 100% conscious at all times, but we all make mistakes too. Briot's article is a reminder of basic principles. I am at the bottom of a steep learning curve in technique and art, and do need a kick in the butt occasionally, in order to shift from the "how" to the "why" of a photograph (and back again to the "how"). The "10,000 hours" value of just getting out there and shooting is that operation of the equipment, dealing with a variety of field conditions, and post-processing can become "second nature" (habit), and high quality photos can be produced from every shoot. Art results from exercising curiosity and reflection during those "10,000 hours" - some people do so, some don't.
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Rob C
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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2013, 11:53:04 AM »
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There are plenty of times when one forgets to do something that is known "by heart". We all try to be 100% conscious at all times, but we all make mistakes too. Briot's article is a reminder of basic principles. I am at the bottom of a steep learning curve in technique and art, and do need a kick in the butt occasionally, in order to shift from the "how" to the "why" of a photograph (and back again to the "how"). The "10,000 hours" value of just getting out there and shooting is that operation of the equipment, dealing with a variety of field conditions, and post-processing can become "second nature" (habit), and high quality photos can be produced from every shoot. Art results from exercising curiosity and reflection during those "10,000 hours" - some people do so, some don't.


I hate to tell you, Nancy, but it doesn't work like that.

At the very best, great and immaculate technique can pull a person through a bad shoot, but when the vitality is missing, as happens with wrong casting, wrong people present (can easily be a client), the shoot fails even though the rest of the world doesn't know it right away.

For what you desire, you are in denial of the presence of the magic, without which nothing happens worth happening. It's the old mojo number again and believe me, he's real. Just ask anyone who's got anywhere in this business, and if they are honest enough not to want to pretend it was all their own wonderful talent, you'll hear the same story.

Rob C
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Isaac
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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2013, 02:53:40 PM »
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The "10,000 hours" value of just getting out there and shooting is that operation of the equipment, dealing with a variety of field conditions, and post-processing can become "second nature" (habit), and high quality photos can be produced from every shoot.

Sanity check -- Did it take you 10,000 hours for driving a car to become "second nature"?

"Most individuals who start as active professionals or as beginners in a domain change their behavior and increase their performance for a limited time until they reach an acceptable level."

Please, read the thousand words the researcher used to summarize his understanding of "Expert Performance and Deliberate Practice".
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2013, 03:58:38 PM »
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Jesus, Isaac, just drop it!

Nobody here buys your interpretation of the "10,000 hours," or the original intention of its author, for that matter.

We have our own understanding of it, however misguided and wrong, and love it dearly.
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Slobodan

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Isaac
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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2013, 05:04:11 PM »
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Jesus, Isaac, just drop it!

I fully support your freedom to express your own understanding, however misguided and wrong.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 04:54:22 PM by Isaac » Logged
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