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Author Topic: Z3200ps, Breathing Color LYVE Canvas profiling  (Read 2719 times)
Mark Lindquist
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« on: May 04, 2013, 03:20:32 PM »
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For all you Z3200ps 44" printers out there using Breathing Color LYVE canvas, just curious what preset you used to profile?

I chose HP Professional Matte Canvas for my custom profile and the prints are stunning.  I had considered doing Fine art paper, canvas, more ink, but thought better of it.

Just wondering what you've done, and what your results have been?  Have you used fine art canvas, more ink - how'd that do?

Thanks-

-Mark
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 08:43:02 PM by Mark Lindquist » Logged
Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2013, 04:59:51 PM »
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Really?  No one profiling BC Lyve out there?
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bill t.
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2013, 06:00:08 PM »
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BC's Epson and Canon media types specify maximum ink load, and "watercolor" is the usual media type.  Also maximum head clearance and maximum suction.

I like the Lyve "look" which is very rich in the mid tones, although it's overall gamut is really only average for matte canvas. But I hate the substrate.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2013, 07:39:02 PM »
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Interesting Bill -

I just checked the color management chart for the 3 printers, and they suggest three different "papers":

Canon recommends - Fine Art Watercolor, Epson recommends UltraSmooth Fine Art Matte, and HP recommends Canvas Matte.

Very strange how all three printers would require different settings.  But those settings are actually Driver Settings, not profiling settings, right?

Here's where I'm looking:  http://www.breathingcolor.com/000_pfw_user_files/site_uploaded/2/pdf/README_Print_Settings_NO_ICC_PROFILE.pdf

When creating a custom profile based on a preset, with the Z3200, it can be tricky, especially when not knowing the coating.

Thanks for your input - appreciate it Bill -

Mark
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Justan
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2013, 10:08:59 AM »
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Ive only worked with a few canvas types on my Z3100, but I start them off the same way that Hahnemuhle suggests for their canvas when used with the Z3100. That is to use the fine art paper > 250g, set quality to highest, and have the printer build the config from there.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2013, 06:13:00 PM »
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Justan,

For experimentation, I just tried profiling based on HP Matte Litho-Realistic Paper and it printed fine.  Well, it printed OK - not bad actually.

I will try the fine art paper > 250g set to highest config and see how that goes.  Ironically, also did a print using HP Professional Matte Canvas, using the HP profile and it literally blew the Lyve out of the water.  The LYVE appeared blocked up in the shadows in comparison.  I guess it makes sense that HP would have a great canvas that works really well with its printers....

When comparing big prints it's pretty easy to see the strengths and weaknesses side by side.

Thanks for your input - appreciate it Justan -

-Mark
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Damir
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 06:57:06 AM »
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Actualy I was wonder why nobady recomend HP canvas is something wrong with them?

I use them all the time and I am satisfed how they perform.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 03:57:28 PM »
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Damir,

As I said in my post, above, the HP Professional Matte kicked BC's but in mid-tones, and in some cases on some prints, overall.

My only experience with HP canvas is with Professional Matte.  What else have you used, and what are your results?

Thanks for you comments -

-Mark
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Colorwave
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 09:05:49 PM »
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I used to use HP Professional Matte, but don't really like the smashed texture look of it, nor the heavy use of OBAs.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2013, 07:47:10 AM »
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Understood.  What canvas do you use now colorwave?  Also, what printer?

Thanks for your input -

-Mark
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jsiva
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 10:20:21 PM »
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Use just Canvas.

Send me an email to jagsiva@rogers.com, I will forward you the oms and icc files.  Jim Cole here tried these profiles and thought they resolved issues he was having.

Cheers.
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Colorwave
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 10:30:59 PM »
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I use Lexjet Sunset Reserve Matte for a moderately textured, no OBA canvas to reproduce art, and Lexjet Sunset Select for a slightly less textured, whiter canvas when needed.  For a smooth canvas with a high whitepoint to print photos, I use Fredrix 777 Vivid canvas.  I also like IJ Technologies Premium Edition Artist Texture canvas as another nice canvas with a moderate texture, but it is too expensive for me here in Hawaii, due to the shipping cost.

Edit:  Forgot to mention, but a Z3100ps.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 04:22:05 PM »
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Thanks very much for your kind offer.  I have sent an email -

-Mark
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 07:53:32 PM »
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I use Lexjet Sunset Reserve Matte for a moderately textured, no OBA canvas to reproduce art, and Lexjet Sunset Select for a slightly less textured, whiter canvas when needed.  For a smooth canvas with a high whitepoint to print photos, I use Fredrix 777 Vivid canvas.  I also like IJ Technologies Premium Edition Artist Texture canvas as another nice canvas with a moderate texture, but it is too expensive for me here in Hawaii, due to the shipping cost.

Edit:  Forgot to mention, but a Z3100ps.

Thanks Ron, appreciate hearing what media you're using.  Pity you're not using the Z3200ps, as I might be able to beg the profiles, LOL.
Out of curiosity, how are you building your profiles?  From scratch or based on pre-existing media?

Which of the types you mention above is the smoothest, most like a quality paper?  The Fredrix 777 Vivid?

Appreciate your input-

Mark
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Colorwave
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 08:00:43 PM »
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Yes, the 777 is the smoothest I've used.  I build profiles with APS, and my starting point is the HP Professional Matte Canvas preset for ink limits, head height, etc.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 08:05:39 PM »
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Great - thanks for that info Ron.  I take it you don't use any BC canvas?  I know you said you don't like it...
-Mark
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Colorwave
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 08:46:21 PM »
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I used virtually nothing but BC canvas for almost four years, the lion's share of which was Chromata White, with a little Lyve thrown in.  I fell off the wagon with them when they changed their canvas and I had major cracking problems, and also experienced issues with the thinner canvas expanding in one direction when sprayed (in addition to the normal slight shrinkage in the other direction).  Only after feeling forced into sampling other canvases did I discover that I preferred others.  I discovered that the so so adhesion I was used to was not a limitation of my printer or all canvases, and found that there were companies with better overall quality control.  They may have moved past the growing pains that were the result of what they tried to portray as "improvements" in their canvas, but I lost confidence in them and gave up when the head of tech support for BC was suddenly "no longer with the firm", literally an hour after he and I last discussed the troubleshooting process in sorting out their problems.  For all I know, my issues with them were a temporary anomaly, but it was enough of a watershed moment to send me in another direction.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 09:15:33 AM »
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Yeah, I've had similar experiences with them.  After just discussing the issues of profiling and how on their site with each paper there is a note saying that the HP profiling info or video is "coming soon".  Never comes.  When I recently discussed with Tech Support, I mentioned that they should consider getting a Z series printer so they could do extensive testing just like they have with Canon and Epson, and he admitted it would be a good idea and said he would suggest it.  Question is, whether they actually will or not.

I just recently saw the Lyve Canvas and thought I would try it.  It's beautiful, but like I say, the HP Pro Matte Canvas has a luminous quality that the BC lacks.  I question how serious the OBA issue is with the HP canvas, since it seems to be their flagship product in canvas, and they reccommend it for museum work.  Considering that the Vivera Ink claims to be good for 200 years, I wonder how it all works out with a canvas being good for 100 years, and of course the finish being applied and the storage or hanging conditions, etc.

I like the Chromata White - it seems fine to me.  The Lyve claims to be 15% better, whatever that means.  I've seen glitches in the weave, however which is disturbing, but probably expected at least minimally, in any canvas.  The Lyve did print certain pieces beautifully and it's a nice smooth canvas.  I think I will try the Fredrix 777, now that you have mentioned it, because I have several pieces that need the "paper look".

Regarding the Fredrix 777, I can't help but wonder about building a custom profile based on a media that uses PK ink in addition. 

According to the info on HP's "working with other papers" pdf (attached) they show that Fine Art > Canvas > More Ink uses all the black inks
(The full HP Quad-black system (matte black + photo black and 2 levels of gray)
Ink Limit Indicates the total amount of ink the paper can absorb to maximize gamut without causing image-quality problems. This setting is expressed in picoliters (or nanograms) per 1/600th x 1/600th inch paper area (divide by 4 for 1/1200th by 1/1200th inch area). In general, the higher the ink limit, the higher the gamut.

I'm thinking that if the surface of the Fredrix 777 is as "paper-like" as you say, that perhaps experimenting with other surfaces (presets) might be interesting.  It seems that just because it's canvas, with the Z3200ps, doesn't mean one is confined to using the canvas preset.

I was going through the list of available profiles while doing soft-proofing just to see what effect different papers had on the image.  Very interesting to see how HP Satin - GE Off made it snap in comparison to any canvas paper.  I understand that this goes contrary to any conventional wisdom in terms of standard profiling procedures, however, after extensive experimentation with using other paper presets with Lyve, and finding that, for example, HP Litho Realistic Matte works just fine, it causes me to consider that it's just ink being laid down on a surface, and that when "fooling" the printer, by calibrating the paper using the canvas, it doesn't know that it's not for example, HP Everday Satin, or whatever, and once the calibration is completed, (assuming the correct changes to the profile, such as height, cutter off, etc have been made) it is possible to print using the existing ICC profile straight onto the canvas.  I may be full of it on this, but it does seem to work, and I plan to experiment more to push the envelope, particularly as HP and the companies manufacturing the media don't provide any comprehensive information about using their products with the Z series printers.

Thanks again for your thoughts and input Ron-

-Mark
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 10:56:04 AM »
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BC's Epson and Canon media types specify maximum ink load, and "watercolor" is the usual media type.  Also maximum head clearance and maximum suction.

I like the Lyve "look" which is very rich in the mid tones, although it's overall gamut is really only average for matte canvas. But I hate the substrate.

Interesting, Bill -

You are spot on with this.  I called BC and talked to Justin in Tech support and he said they use watercolor presets for Epson and Canon and have done extensive testing.  But NO testing with any Z series printers because they don't have them.  I've been experimenting with using a watercolor preset and it seems to be doing OK, but I'm going to keep pushing the envelope.

May I ask which canvases you are using?  Ron has mentioned Fredrix 777, among others.  Curious to know what you use, since you hate the Lyve substrate?

Thanks -

-Mark
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Jim Sanderson
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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2013, 10:39:44 PM »
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So how did things end up turning out?  I used the HP Professional Canvas as a preset and profiled with APS.  The results were good for me. 

Jim
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