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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 76674 times)
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #180 on: May 07, 2013, 01:16:18 PM »
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This is really a more complicated issue than Jeff presents it and one only needs to look at those companies supporting the Senate bill (Amazon and most other major Internet retailers).  This will severely disadvantage the smaller retailers who will now have to institute complex software packages to collect and disburse sales taxes in the states that they don't have a physical presence.

This is an effort to save the small retailers.  I myself lose at least 2 or 3 camera sales a week to someone who spends my employees time deciding what camera to buy, looking at and playing with my demo's including sometimes shooting cards, only to leave saying "they'll think about it".  In reality they are going to buy it online to save the sales tax. So it's bad enough I lose the sale because I can't compete on a level playing field, it's like pouring salt into a wound because I'm the showroom for B&H and the like with no compensation.  (Personally I think Canon, Nikon and others should recognize this and offer me lower prices and surcharge them.  Of course that's never going to happen) Forcing them to collect sales tax and I can then compete close enough on price I could close most of those sales, and actually may have a chance at surviving.

Anyone who meets the $1m year internet sales number can easily afford the software and systems to collect and remit the tax, and in fact the bill requires the states to furnish the software to the retailers.

As far as unfair taxation, the issue is states losing revenue because some of their residents are avoiding taxes this way.  They owe it, and it isn't fair to the other residents who pay it.  Whether sales tax in general is "fair" is another discussion, but what isn't fair is some not paying their share.  The states have no way to police or enforce this.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 07:36:50 PM by Wayne Fox » Logged

soboyle
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« Reply #181 on: May 07, 2013, 01:21:18 PM »
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It's the price. That is the issue.
Adobe is begin greedy, and everyone is pissed off, including me.
Drop the price and all the screaming will go away.
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #182 on: May 07, 2013, 01:24:49 PM »
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Adobe just bought up NIK
Can I be the second person to correct you on this; Google bought NIK, NOT Adobe.

http://www.niksoftware.com/nikcollection/en/intro.html
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Gulag
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« Reply #183 on: May 07, 2013, 01:26:09 PM »
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I do understand the issue.  We're all really pissed that Adobe is now doing what everybody else is doing and the steam is venting.  That's the issue.

Two months down the road, almost everybody here will be subscribed to CC, and the wounds will slowly heal.  And I bet Adobe will continue to supply with new, useful stuff.  And any viable alternative will be a long time coming.  That's the reality we're going to see.

So you will be obedient and accept the rape? Congratulations. But, I know I won't. GIMP will be my solution since I don't use any Photoshop third-party plugins at all.  
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“For art to be art it has to cure.”  - Alejandro Jodorowsky
jerryrock
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« Reply #184 on: May 07, 2013, 01:26:21 PM »
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Thank you for the clarity.  I'm assuming then that I should be able to work locally, off line for extended periods of time as long as I'm paid up.

Must say, I don't like the idea much, though. Has anything been said about Lightroom going cloud only?

Perhaps this will provide a new space in the market for smaller companies to capture significant market share with similar products.  I've been meaning to test others available & now have impetus to do so.

It also now makes me rethink the wisdom of my "convert to DNG on import" as a default.

Rand

The Creative Cloud version requires an internet connection every 30 days or the activation will cease. The previous stand alone versions require activation upon installation only.

Personally, I will stop with CS6 having invested in the Master Suite, it will be to costly to maintain a monthly subscription to retain the same programs with the Creative Cloud. While this marketing scheme is fine for large businesses and schools, it leaves the loyal single end users out in the cold. This is a great opportunity for a competitor to develop similar software.
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Gerald J Skrocki
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« Reply #185 on: May 07, 2013, 01:29:08 PM »
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I do understand the issue.  We're all really pissed that Adobe is now doing what everybody else is doing and the steam is venting.  That's the issue.

Two months down the road, almost everybody here will be subscribed to CC, and the wounds will slowly heal.  And I bet Adobe will continue to supply with new, useful stuff.  And any viable alternative will be a long time coming.  That's the reality we're going to see.

Few months? Why? Huge amount of people didn't even upgrade to CS6 due to heavily diminishing returns. A lot only did as Adobe threatened that further upgrades would only be possible from CS6 (that was a lie and a half given what they have just done, there would be nothing to upgrade to!). The amount of people who need more than CS6 is even lower. Everyone immediately taking on CC? In your dreams.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #186 on: May 07, 2013, 01:29:42 PM »
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I pretty much agree with Jeff about the anti-trust issues but it is clear that the third party developers would have standing in court if Adobe foreclosed their option to develop new or insure compatibility of existing applications for the CC programs.  That being said, it's likely that such developers are pretty small companies.  The CC makes eminent sense for those who use the suite of programs but less so for those of us who don't.  I'm happy to continue using Dreamweaver CS4 to maintain my little website and certainly could not justify moving up to the entire suite to access a new version that I use maybe only once a month.  I'm also wondering what 'new' enhancements to PS would make it worthwhile to subscribe.  For my purposes, CS6 is just fine.

I have CS6 - for the longest while. I haven't even bothered to transfer over my Actions and shortcuts yet, because I do 95% of my editing in LR and the other 5% PSCS5 handles just fine. And as LR improves further, that 5% will continue to decline. I'll be "thinking a while" before I get into CC-anything. Maybe I shall, maybe i shall not. Adobe will need to make it worth my while. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's all a crap-shoot, and I am sure there are many like me, and I'm even more sure that Adobe is well aware of this, and did what they did anyhow.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
jrsforums
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« Reply #187 on: May 07, 2013, 01:29:57 PM »
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"if mother had balls she'd be the dad." <g>

Yes, that's the future of subscriptions for software, just like we use cell phone's, ISP providers, magazines or video services. You stop paying, you stop getting.

But Andrew....I still have the old copies of the magazine.  I can move my phone number to a new phone/service.  Etc.
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John
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #188 on: May 07, 2013, 01:32:45 PM »
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Adobe doesn't have nearly the deep pockets that Microsoft and Google have and both them were subject to pretty significant litigation which they had to settle.  I suspect that if there is any anti-trust, it will take place in Europe which is far more friendly to such legal action compared to the US.  Adobe has a decent cash flow but at present is probably overvalued by about 20%.  The move to the CC is one way to strengthen cash flow and while we may not like it, the bottom line is the company has a responsibility to its shareholders above all

Alan,

(a) Even in Europe I'd be surprised if any one could sustain anti-trust; it's thin gruel, and (b) there is a real risk that over the medium term this change of marketing strategy may actually weaken their cash flow, and they are well aware of that risk. They are staking-out a very long-term strategic position with this.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
digitaldog
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« Reply #189 on: May 07, 2013, 01:35:06 PM »
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But Andrew....I still have the old copies of the magazine.  

Which is just one kind of subscription. You can't say the same for the subscription for cable can you? Or phone, IP? Isn't the software you're using to write posts here in a way part of a cloud and subscription and stops working for you the second you stop paying that subscription (for internet?). Adobe isn't taking away the files you create so the move to phone analogy doesn't wash.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #190 on: May 07, 2013, 01:36:13 PM »
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It is interesting that Mr. Schewe makes a big FUD case on losing the ability to process proprietary RAW in the future (promoting Adobe's DNG strategy), but does not see how Adobe's subscription strategy will subject us to a similar risk to our processed images.

I think this is different from raw. You can always flatten a PSD or a TIFF and then process them afresh if the newer version doesn't support some features of the version used to create say some of the previous layers. This disrupts the whole concept of a non-destructive, reversible workflow, but at least it's doable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #191 on: May 07, 2013, 01:38:45 PM »
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The big 'BUT' is that Adobe can inactivate the software if you decide at some future time to stop your subscription.  Just to clarify.

I doubt it. If you have a perpetual serial number, it should remain intact because that is what you bought. Yes, they can verify it to make sure it isn't pirated, but I don't see them invalidating legally obtained perpetual licenses. Unless the terms of the Agreement allow it, THAT would be grounds for a suit.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #192 on: May 07, 2013, 01:47:18 PM »
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To be honest I was surprised by his response.  And I understand he might hold allegiances with Adobe in one capacity or the other so it's not my intention to upset him or anyone else.  But as adults we should deal in the reality of the situation and that means we should expect lawsuits on one side and poor business behaviour on the other.  

Heck, Adobe just bought up NIK and sources tell me they've after most major plug-ins so in their pursuit to make this subscription thing fly with their customer base.  It would be one thing to keep using CS6 and hold out on CS7 for a generation or two, but to find our your most popular plug-in's can't be owned either, that Adobe bought them and they're now part of their subscription..  It should be obvious Adobe has a monopoly at least in the photographic market, and buying up the smaller more popular programs to include in their base product or to encourage assimilation in their new subscription services is pretty much on par for the business world when you're trying to force your customer base into an unpopular position.  It doesn't take a MBA grad to see exactly what they're doing and to know with so much money at stake they'll do whatever they think they can get away with.. and some.  and I say "and some" because corporations routinely do things THEY KNOW will get them sued and they know they will lose, as a calculated business cost.



Adobe did not buy NIK. Google did.
'
Adobe may have the best image editing software on the planet but they do not have a monopoly as Jeff Schewe ably demonstrated. With or without an MBA, it could be relevant to get the facts right. And in most corporations I'm familiar with, the legal department is there mainly to keep them out of trouble, as well as helping them to enforce their rights.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 02:01:20 PM by Mark D Segal » Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jrsforums
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« Reply #193 on: May 07, 2013, 01:48:29 PM »
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Which is just one kind of subscription. You can't say the same for the subscription for cable can you? Or phone, IP? Isn't the software you're using to write posts here in a way part of a cloud and subscription and stops working for you the second you stop paying that subscription (for internet?). Adobe isn't taking away the files you create so the move to phone analogy doesn't wash.

Thought I covered some of those.  

Cable - I can go from Time Warner to Local phone provide (ATT, Verizon).  I can get service via phone.

Phone-talked about that...numbers a portable.  I like iPhone, but Android is reasonable alternative.

Write Posts - IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, multiple phone apps.

Adobe is not taking away the files....RAW, because I still have the proprietary RAW, which others can work with....not having converted to DNG and thrown away the original data.  TIFF...because it is a standard....but only the flattened TIFF....because many of the layers and filters are proprietary to PS CC.

BTW....YOU used the phone analogy....I was responding to it....forget that?
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John
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« Reply #194 on: May 07, 2013, 01:53:44 PM »
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Devil's Advocate here.

People line up to pay $100+ a month for a freaking silly iPhone to gossip and watch Youtube videosl, but grouse about paying $50/month for one of the cores of their professional businesses.  It's all how you look at it.  Switch to Net10, subscribe to CC, and you'll still be dollars ahead.


Ridiculous analogy. The people that use an iPhone "to gossip and watch Youtube videos" aren't Adobe customers. The people that use both use the iPhone as business tool (email, business Phone, client Contacts etc.) just like they use Photoshop as a tool. The big difference is many of use the iPhone multiple times a day vs. a few times a month at most for Photoshop. So for my use, the subscription to CC should be much cheaper than an iPhone plan. And it is. To me, the 9.99/month is reasonable and I'd consider it if I hadn't just purchased CS6 within the last month. For now, I'll wait until there's a compelling reason: new features, increased usage etc. I also expect Adobe to offer renewal deals to keep customers coming back.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #195 on: May 07, 2013, 01:53:51 PM »
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Thought I covered some of those.  
Cable - I can go from Time Warner to Local phone provide (ATT, Verizon).  I can get service via phone.
And you can go from Adobe to someone else's software. You can't re-use the stuff you didn't see from your cable subscription last month (DVR not withstanding).

Quote
Phone-talked about that...numbers a portable.  
So are TIFFs. The phone is the phone. What is it without a subscription plan? It's a little computer but it's not a phone. You stop paying Sprint, you stop getting phone service. The numbers on that phone or the phone itself is totally different. That's hardware.  

Quote
Write Posts - IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, multiple phone apps.
Which are useful to do what if you don't pay the subscription to get onto the web? There IS software back there allowing you to do that. And the software stops working when you stop paying your ISP's subscription. Just like HBO stops when you don't pay the cable bill. What good is Safari if you can't use it to access the data on the web you subscribe to?
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #196 on: May 07, 2013, 01:55:07 PM »
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Consider the following scenario:

A user subscribes to CC - this is the first time this user has access to the applications; he does NOT have any previous cloud-free version.

A year goes by and Adobe updates CC. Our user discovers that the new version requires a newer OS version than he currently uses. He investigates the new OS and discovers that his current computer will not support the new OS.

At this point, Adobe is giving him one year to make the following choice: spend thousands of dollars upgrading his computer or abandon Adobe CC entirely and potentially lose access to all his files.

Am I correct in thinking this is extremely likely? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #197 on: May 07, 2013, 01:55:34 PM »
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You sound like you really don't fully understand the whole issue. According to Wiki, Rentier Capitalism is a term currently used to describe economic practices of parasitic monopolization of access to any (physical, financial, intellectual, etc.) kind of property and gaining significant amount of profit without contribution to society. Let me put it in the simplest term: this whole Adobe shit is about renter vs rentier. Adobe "believes" it is a monopoly and behaves as a such. Innovation? Forget about it. Improvements? Forget about it. What would you say if Microsoft or Apple started to charge you some monthly fee for Windows or Mac OS?  

There is pretty clear factual evidence that they do not see themselves as a monopoly.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
digitaldog
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« Reply #198 on: May 07, 2013, 01:57:39 PM »
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Consider the following scenario:
At this point, Adobe is giving him one year to make the following choice: spend thousands of dollars upgrading his computer or abandon Adobe CC entirely and potentially lose access to all his files.

Are you sure Adobe forces them to upgrade? As long as one pays the subscription, why shouldn’t they be able to use that locally installed (older) version so they don't have to hurry out and buy a new computer? Are you sure there is this mandatory upgrade process? It doesn't make sense as long as you pay for the subscription, you should be able to use whatever 'version' or build you wish.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #199 on: May 07, 2013, 01:59:40 PM »
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This is an effort to save the small retailers.  I myself lose at least 2 or 3 camera sales a week to someone who spends my employees time deciding what camera to buy, looking at and playing with my demo's including sometimes shooting cards, only to leave saying "they'll think about it".  In reality they are going to buy it online to save the sales tax. So it's bad enough I lose the sale because I can't compete on a level playing field, it's like pouring salt into a wound because I'm the showroom for B&H and the like with no compensation.  (Personally I think Canon, Nikon and others should recognize this and offer me lower prices and surcharge them.  Of course that's never going to happen) Forcing them to collect sales tax and I can then compete close enough on price I could close most of those sales, and actually may have a chance at surviving.

Anyone who meets the $1m year internet sales number can easily afford the software and systems to collect and remit the tax, and in fact the bill requires the states to furnish the software to the retailers.

As far as unfair taxation, the issue is states losing revenue because some of their residents are avoiding taxes this way.  They owe it, and it isn't fair to the other residents who pay it.  Whether sales tax in general is "fair" is another discussion, but what isn't fair is some not paying their share.  The states have no way to police or enforce this.

You are correct on all counts. Here in Canada sales tax is being collected on many internet sales that meet the legal criteria for charging it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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