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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 77263 times)
Rhossydd
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 03:32:31 PM »
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lead to more rapid advances with new features on a more regular basis.
Just how much can you usefully add to Photoshop now ? or more importantly what can you add that will be worth 120 a year in perpetuity (=$180pa equiv here in the UK) ?

I didn't bother upgrading PS after CS4 when they started taking out more that I used than they put in that I might occasionally use.
Now, more than ever, it seems worth investing some time in learning The Gimp.

Whilst LR4 is great at the moment, LR5b looks not to be a great upgrade yet, if they go down the same subscription model with LR I'm off to DXO or C1.
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Schewe
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 03:37:52 PM »
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I didn't bother upgrading PS after CS4 when they started taking out more that I used than they put in that I might occasionally use.

What exactly did they take out of CS4 that you use? Personally, after working in CS6 (and CC) I can't stand working in CS4 (and yes, I've got Photoshop all the way back to version .87 which was BarneyScan).

You go right ahead and use GIMP...you haven't been a Photoshop customer since CS4, so it's not like Adobe is loosing you. You're already gone.
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 03:38:01 PM »
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Well, you said it, you aren't working in the field now...you don't have clients spread out all over the place with contract artists also spread out everywhere. It's a wired world bud (if you hadn't noticed) and "graphics" as an industry have undergone a revolution since you've been in it. That's why you don't understand...

NO SHIT?! Bud?!

Has Adobe and you ever figured that this internet thingy just might be a bubble seeing there's no facts on how people are making REAL money on it. I haven't seen any invoices. Are web ads really that smart of an approach for grabbing eyeballs?

If it's made easy for everybody don't you think the demand is going to become diluted. When is critical mass going to be reached and does anyone know how to calculate for that? It's like a pro photographer competing for attention among billions of images online made by amateurs.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 03:40:37 PM by tlooknbill » Logged
hjulenissen
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 03:49:15 PM »
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This may be totally irrational, but any time a corporate IT-industry marketing drone mentions "social", "community", "cloud", my shutters tends to go down. Please shut up. You would have a better chance of having my money if you just said nothing, quoted Monty Python or whatever.

Ah, well. Competition is good, and if this makes it easier for competing or open-source photo/graphics packages, I guess all is good. But please don't do it to Lightroom, I have everything running nice and cozy right now...

-h
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 03:50:47 PM »
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NO SHIT?! Bud?!

Has Adobe and you ever figured that this internet thingy just might be a bubble seeing there's no facts on how people are making REAL money on it. I haven't seen any invoices. Are web ads really that smart of an approach for grabbing eyeballs?

If it's made easy for everybody don't you think the demand is going to become diluted. When is critical mass going to be reached and does anyone know how to calculate for that? It's like a pro photographer competing for attention among billions of images online made by amateurs.


There is a whole industry out there with tons of metrics on how people use the internet - make no mistake about that. We are dissected, sliced and diced in great detail. What do you think the whole privacy issue is about? And there is no bubble. The internet is here to stay, and grow and make more money for more people. Some groups have figured out how to turn eyeballs into cash, others haven't, and others are on the way to doing so - more and more, and we will be paying more and more for what we draw from the internet. Makes sense doesn't it? Peoples' time developing stuff is worth something. Amazing how much we get for free and that will continue and continue to draw millions to the net. There is no conceivable saturation point to any of this for a very long time to come. And remember - the USA isn't the universe - there is a whole world out there with internet consumption growing exponentially all over the place. This can't be compared to the demise of professional photography, where the technological revolution has pushed the profession way up the quality chain if they want to survive in it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 04:00:59 PM »
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And there is no bubble. The internet is here to stay, and grow and make more money for more people.

I didn't say the internet is going away. I said this in reference to the lack of transparency on how folks are making their money from it. Facebook didn't take a dive in its stock after its public offering for no reason.

You've seen the invoices and bank statements from all the internet vendors? If you're that certain about it without that level of evidence, I've got some bundled securities I'ld like to sell ya'.
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 04:10:51 PM »
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Peoples' time developing stuff is worth something. Amazing how much we get for free and that will continue and continue to draw millions to the net.

Is that a typo, Mark?

Maybe this is why YouTube is going to start charging for subscriptions to certain video feeds.

They've decided doing this for ad revenue isn't as lucrative as they thought.

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 04:24:17 PM »
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Tim. not to hijack this thread OT, but the Facebook IPO is a whole other talk-show, starting from the initial valuation. And no, I don't have access to peoples' income statements. You said "the internet thingy" is a bubble. Quite a vague statement so I interpreted the way I did. It's better to use the English language to say what you really mean. And no, no typos - I agree more companies will be looking for more ways to monetize eyeballs. That's what I said. But there will still be tons and tons of stuff for free drawing gazillions of viewers to the web 24/7. As for the Adobe business - all I'm suggesting is that time will tell whether the business model succeeds; so far they claim it is...............
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
JimGoshorn
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 04:47:54 PM »
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As a book author, my life just way more complicated because I can't write for a fixed target with a known lifecycle...now it's a moving target that will be tough to do for paper based publishing (easier and perhaps better done with ebooks).

That thought reminds me of the Photo Lab Index book from back in the "good old days". Wink

Jim
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Schewe
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 05:14:08 PM »
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Has Adobe and you ever figured that this internet thingy just might be a bubble seeing there's no facts on how people are making REAL money on it. I haven't seen any invoices. Are web ads really that smart of an approach for grabbing eyeballs?

You're kidding right? The entire world economy is now completely dependent on ecommerce...internet ads? That's nothing...the US Congress is just now waking up to the fact this Internet thingie is big business...I think the Senate was to vote today on charging sales tax on all internet online sales...seems there were $225.5 billion in online sales in 2012, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce.

So, yeah, I think this whole Internet thingie is here to stay...

:~)
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bill t.
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« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2013, 05:18:46 PM »
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That thought reminds me of the Photo Lab Index book from back in the "good old days". Wink

Food for though there.  An old employer of mine owned a "Lifetime Edition" of the Photo Lab Index, updates arrived in the mail once in a while.  Not sure who's "Lifetime" they were referring too, but good luck with those updates these days.  They've got a late edition on Google Books.
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2013, 05:39:17 PM »
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Actually, they announced new aggressive upgrade pricing to the CC versions of apps which brings the price down-assuming you go with a longer term license.

Special pricing for existing customers
CS3 and later get Complete for $29.99
CS6 customers get Complete for $19.99
CS3 and later get Single App for $9.99
All offers require annual commitment

As far as the economics of the CC for Adobe, actually, it's been the success of the whole subscription model (and the technical difficulty in doing dual application versioning for subscription & perpetual licenses) that have driven Adobe toward doing this. Yes, it will alienate some users who reject the whole "cloud" thingie...which I understand (assuming the rejection is made based on real facts and not FUD).

As a book author, my life just way more complicated because I can't write for a fixed target with a known lifecycle...now it's a moving target that will be tough to do for paper based publishing (easier and perhaps better done with ebooks).

I'm also kinda melancholy about the whole change to the old model...as a long term alpha/beta tester, I always looked forward to a new dev cycle and seeing what the engineers came up with (and hammered on them to fix stuff). But this new model allows a freedom and flexibility that will, I think, lead to more rapid advances with new features on a more regular basis. But I'll miss the old way...

Edited to add the special offers...

Lets look at the actual numbers. If I am not mistaken they look something like this. I think a more realistic price comparison is to use 18 months. That has been the Adobe update cycle, and with CS6 Adobe had announced that you could only upgrade from the most recent version.

Costs (assuming you already own a valid license which fits most of the people here):
Old model = $200 every 18 months
New model (first year at $20/month, next 6 months at $30/month): $420 for 18 months

The deal looks a different for someone just now purchasing Photoshop, but you still lose over the long run with the subnscription model.

Still a very lousy deal like twice what it cost before? Am I right about this? They just doubled the price. I wish I could do that with my clients but oh yeah I don't have a monopoly.
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Kirk

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AFairley
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2013, 05:58:43 PM »
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Is that a typo, Mark?

Maybe this is why YouTube is going to start charging for subscriptions to certain video feeds.

They've decided doing this for ad revenue isn't as lucrative as they thought.



Bummer, I would happily live with ads in exchange for a free Adobe subscription (just as long as the images weren't watermarked).   Wink
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Rick Popham
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2013, 06:06:31 PM »
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Lets look at the actual numbers. If I am not mistaken they look something like this. I think a more realistic price comparison is to use 18 months. That has been the Adobe update cycle, and with CS6 Adobe had announced that you could only upgrade from the most recent version.

Costs (assuming you already own a valid license which fits most of the people here):
Old model = $200 every 18 months
New model (first year at $20/month, next 6 months at $30/month): $420 for 18 months

The deal looks a different for someone just now purchasing Photoshop, but you still lose over the long run with the subnscription model.

Still a very lousy deal like twice what it cost before? Am I right about this? They just doubled the price. I wish I could do that with my clients but oh yeah I don't have a monopoly.

 You're exactly right.  I tried to point this out on John Nack's blog, where he was going on about paying only 33 cents a day for Photoshop, but the blog won't post my comments for some reason.

The thing is, that after my NAPP discount, I've been paying about 33 cents a day for my perpetual license Photoshop Standard version (under the old 18 month cycle).  Adobe is giving its "Loyal Customers" the opportunity -- for the next year -- to pay exactly what they've already been paying.   And then they'll double the price.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2013, 06:17:46 PM »
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You're kidding right? The entire world economy is now completely dependent on ecommerce...internet ads? That's nothing...the US Congress is just now waking up to the fact this Internet thingie is big business...I think the Senate was to vote today on charging sales tax on all internet online sales...seems there were $225.5 billion in online sales in 2012, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce.

So, yeah, I think this whole Internet thingie is here to stay...

:~)
This is really a more complicated issue than Jeff presents it and one only needs to look at those companies supporting the Senate bill (Amazon and most other major Internet retailers).  This will severely disadvantage the smaller retailers who will now have to institute complex software packages to collect and disburse sales taxes in the states that they don't have a physical presence.  Sure there is a small retailer exemption but it's peanuts.  In addition all us who purchase things over the net will now be subject to sales tax on virtually all transactions.  Amazon will still make money and maybe this will also drive some of us back to local retailers who still have brick and mortar stores.

It looks like LR will still be available as a stand alone product and maybe I will never need anything more than PS6.  In this case the cloud stuff really has no impact on me at all.

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Schewe
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2013, 06:26:41 PM »
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This is really a more complicated issue than Jeff presents it and one only needs to look at those companies supporting the Senate bill (Amazon and most other major Internet retailers).  This will severely disadvantage the smaller retailers who will now have to institute complex software packages to collect and disburse sales taxes in the states that they don't have a physical presence.  Sure there is a small retailer exemption but it's peanuts.

The exemption is $1,000,000 of interstate sales/year. So, I wouldn't call that "peanuts"...and whether you like or dislike sales tax in general, the fact is that states have been suffering from lost sales tax because in the past, the internet was considered a new thing that needed some help.

The point I was making is a $225 Billion/year industry doesn't need the help anymore...and this was all said to refute Tim's whole validity of the internet as a place to make money.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2013, 06:27:29 PM »
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No non-subscription CS7.

Hi,

That indeed seems to be the plan. Therefore it's more of an abandonment of CS rather than a diversion between CS and CC.

Cheers,
Bart
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2013, 06:31:42 PM »
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You're exactly right.  .


Not clear he's exactly right. For a single application, on the 18 month depreciation cycle, a $200 upgrade price is $11/month. For the first year on CC, an existing qualifying PS user will pay $10/month, and thereafter $20/month. So there is one year of cost protection, then the price about doubles. But we are getting all the new features as they come out in real time, and some other services. So the comparison isn't exactly apples-to-apples. But the bottom line remains that Adobe converts us to renters, puts us on a treadmill and takes more money from us - eventually. Whether enough people believe the value returned is worthwhile will determine whether this model works.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2013, 06:31:54 PM »
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Actually, they announced new aggressive upgrade pricing to the CC versions of apps which brings the price down-assuming you go with a longer term license.

Special pricing for existing customers
CS3 and later get Complete for $29.99
CS6 customers get Complete for $19.99
CS3 and later get Single App for $9.99
All offers require annual commitment

As far as the economics of the CC for Adobe, actually, it's been the success of the whole subscription model (and the technical difficulty in doing dual application versioning for subscription & perpetual licenses) that have driven Adobe toward doing this. Yes, it will alienate some users who reject the whole "cloud" thingie...which I understand (assuming the rejection is made based on real facts and not FUD).

As a book author, my life just way more complicated because I can't write for a fixed target with a known lifecycle...now it's a moving target that will be tough to do for paper based publishing (easier and perhaps better done with ebooks).

I'm also kinda melancholy about the whole change to the old model...as a long term alpha/beta tester, I always looked forward to a new dev cycle and seeing what the engineers came up with (and hammered on them to fix stuff). But this new model allows a freedom and flexibility that will, I think, lead to more rapid advances with new features on a more regular basis. But I'll miss the old way...

Edited to add the special offers...

Jeff, have you got a link to that pricing?  When I try to click on the special offer, it takes me to UK pricing.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2013, 06:35:08 PM »
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The exemption is $1,000,000 of interstate sales/year. So, I wouldn't call that "peanuts"...and whether you like or dislike sales tax in general, the fact is that states have been suffering from lost sales tax because in the past, the internet was considered a new thing that needed some help.

The point I was making is a $225 Billion/year industry doesn't need the help anymore...and this was all said to refute Tim's whole validity of the internet as a place to make money.
I'm in full agreement with your general premise.  I was just reflecting what I heard on NPR Radio today.
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