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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 72481 times)
JanneAavasalo
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« Reply #540 on: May 09, 2013, 12:05:37 PM »
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This is in my view the key mistake Adobe made. If they have done as you suggest David many would be quite happy with the new model.

It is the key here, but freezing the version as such doesn't work. This way you could get a subscription for a month, then "freeze" it and you'd have a new version for 20$. Not going to work.

What could work would be the "cell phone" approach, where you pay monthly for a phone & service and at the end of the subscription you'd own the phone. This would need versioning in predictable intervals inside the CC system and different subscription plans with limited duration. At the end you could renew the subscription and start paying for the next version and its updates within CC.

But that again would wreck the whole continuous update scheme Adobe has intended. It's a tough nut to crack, I'll give them that.
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Isaac
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« Reply #541 on: May 09, 2013, 12:10:08 PM »
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... not all Adobe users are pros who sell their work or sell their work only occasionally. I'm in the latter group and really don't make much money with photography, so yes, I'd like the chance to skip over versions and decide for myself when to update (and when I have sufficient funds to do so).

We are less important customers for that reason (and because our narrow focus on photography makes it less likely that we'll pay for other Adobe products).

We don't really qualify as customers for PS CC -- we qualify as customers for LR and PS Elements.


... but all the time maintaining your catalog, key wording, developing and doing edits in PS...

So you will key-word outside PS/LR.

So you will export/save developed/edited work as TIFF.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #542 on: May 09, 2013, 12:11:32 PM »
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I don't think those are fair comparisons. Yes, when I stop paying for cable and Netflix I no longer receive the movies and TV shows.
And when you stop paying Adobe, the same happens to your software. What am I missing?

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However, the movie studios and networks that provide the shows and movies also provide ways for me to own those shows via DVDs, Blu-ray, downloads etc. So I have the choice to rent or to own.

Nothing stops you from using another software product on our assets created in CC or any version of Photoshop. That doesn't mean proprietary processes (again, layers) will be accessible in the other product. You bought into a technology. Someone somewhere mentioned VHS. Just because the technology changes doesn't mean the old VHS data is no longer any good or even accessible. If you decide to buy VHS then move to DVD, you've make the decision to change technology.

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Adobe no longer gives that option.
Yup, and I think that's the big issue most are pissed at, but from their side, it's very smart. If I give you an option to hire me for 1 day on-site or 2, what's a better option for you financially? If I tell you my on site minimum is 2 days I control this. You can tell me to bugger off, you'll find someone else just as you can tell Adobe to bugger off and use another software product. BUT, if you've already invested 4 days with me, or 4 years with Adobe software, the bugger off idea has severe negative implications for you.

Ultimately you have to decide to pay or tell us to bugger off.

I do understand many people don't like such severe changes or being forced to do something they didn't have to do in the past.
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Andrew Rodney
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John.Murray
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« Reply #543 on: May 09, 2013, 12:16:06 PM »
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sorry to go off topic here - but I really needed to repond, as some key info is missing here.....
This will severely disadvantage the smaller retailers who will now have to institute complex software packages to collect and disburse sales taxes in the states that they don't have a physical presence.  

Part of the negotiation between individual states and congress, was the concept of a unified tax collection and reporting system - SSUTA - http://www.streamlinedsalestax.org/

I believe 24 states (charging sales tax) have signed on, with a couple more pending.  There is more than one cloud basedservice, that correctly handles and returns tax rates, based on the shipping address (validated to ZIP+4).

I've been working with https://taxcloud.net for some time; nearly all e-commerce shopping cart systems are supported.  There is even a free tax calculator for casual use.  The cost of this service?  FREE.  How can they do this?  - The individual states subsidize this as they also receive reporting (the bill currently in congress only requires collection and payment for online transaction volume in excess of 1 million per year).

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Colorwave
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« Reply #544 on: May 09, 2013, 12:16:30 PM »
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... if the ballpark to date is somewhere in the neighbourhood of half a million subscribers versus a few dozen - even very loud and reasonable - complainers - not so clear...........
A few dozen?  You don't get out much, Mark?
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #545 on: May 09, 2013, 12:19:55 PM »
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The more information I found on this topic online the more I realize I've been living in a cave despite the fact I've been connected to the internet and contributing to digital imaging (photo editing/reproduction) discussions for over 10 years.

After reading what Jeff Schewe finally put into words that made sense over all the interference on this thread...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78151.0

...concerning CC's target market toward professionals, I'm curious if this is going to reduce the amount of online Adobe app troubleshooting posts and general digital imaging discussions since CC integrates bug fixes and feature additions through the Cloud that seems to require a call to Adobe customer service for any trouble encountered. Is this what the Cloud is designed for with regard to professionals?

This looks like a way to reduce the chatter and clutter of issues posted online by folks having trouble with their Adobe apps who don't make a living using these apps so Adobe can focus their customers service resources and energies toward those whose survival of their business requires priority attention by Adobe. Wonder if Adobe will be needing to hire more customer service personnel.

To see how big this is I did a search to see if Getty Images is onboard with CC and they already have CC integration and option selections on their website, but I also found some other very interesting "Mashable.com" articles on CC from an interview with Adobe CEO and other articles explaining Adobe's other plans to expand like bringing prime time TV to the internet.

http://mashable.com/2012/11/15/adobe-project-primetime/

And Adobe's acquiring Behance, appears to function similarly to what "Communication Arts" used to do for professional creative's that wanted to publish their portfolio to be targeted and seen by other professionals and media buyers exclusively except I'm assuming without "Communication Arts" hefty entry fees. The CC subscription price probably covers it at a much reduced cost.

So with CC, if you want to play with the pros and/or come across or be perceived as a pro (with pro problems for Adobe to deal with), then pay the price with a subscription. As a former professional creative it makes perfect sense.


« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 12:34:51 PM by tlooknbill » Logged
David Luery
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« Reply #546 on: May 09, 2013, 12:20:04 PM »
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It is the key here, but freezing the version as such doesn't work. This way you could get a subscription for a month, then "freeze" it and you'd have a new version for 20$. Not going to work.

Good point, but easily remedied.  For instance, Adobe could charge a 'penalty' fee sufficient to discourage this type of gaming.  Or make the 'frozen' software only available to annual subscribers who would have paid in $240 (USD).  Etc., etc.

Best regards,

David
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JanneAavasalo
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« Reply #547 on: May 09, 2013, 12:24:29 PM »
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We've been over this but... Many subscriptions don't (subscriptions to rent a video on NetFlix, your cell phone and cable).

One can argue that the tangible item the CC subscription provides you is an document with an image in it. What's the net result, the something tangible of subscribing to CC and not using it?  

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Yes, when I stop paying for cable and Netflix I no longer receive the movies and TV shows. However, the movie studios and networks that provide the shows and movies also provide ways for me to own those shows via DVDs, Blu-ray, downloads etc. So I have the choice to rent or to own. Adobe no longer gives that option. And, while I think the subscription service is great for medium to large businesses it doesn't make sense for individuals and small businesses.

I'd see that the point of making a subscription service like NetFlix is to offer something at a lower price point and the flipside is that it's not going to be tangible. Adobe is doing the same, but actually increasing the cost, while cutting down their own cost. Like Andrew said before, good for Adobe, not so good to the customers.

And like jwstl mentioned, there are other ways to get the same content if you'd like to own it.

Also the cell phone service analogy isn't quite the same since pretty much every service does the same thing. You insert the sim-card and you'll be able to make phone calls, sms and surf the internet on your mobile device just like before. And at least here in Finland, even the phone number comes along when you switch services.

For cable (don't know much about this since I don't watch tv), you can still record the movies etc. when you are subscribed (editing a file -> saving it), but after you unsubscribe, the files will still open in different devices even though you are not subscribed.

I'd venture out and say that Adobes new policy is fundamentally different to pretty much anything I've come by so far. And here's hoping that it doesn't catch on.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #548 on: May 09, 2013, 12:28:24 PM »
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Tell me more, how big?
Tell me that equates to the rendering I want, in the color space I want, in the bit depth I want and the full resolution I expect.

I just extracted one from a 5D3 CR2: 5760 x 3840  Pixels (22.12 MPixels) (3:2) aRGB

I understand the difference between a jpeg and a Tiff

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I was editing images in Photoshop years before there was anything but a flatted image.

Yet you still failed to answer the question I posed in the post.

I guess you never have any desire or need to  go back an modify a wip image, rather than restarting the raw or modifying the flattened tiff.  As you know, things like sharpening or blurring in a flattened cannot be easily fix, but are easy in the layered version.

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Look, I don't know who you are, what you do for a living, anything about your 'chops' because you find it necessary to post here anonymously. That alone says a lot.

Your signon is 'DigitalDog'; mine is 'jrsforums'.  As you (I think) I have the same signon for all of the forums I participate in.  You want yourself know for promotional purposes.  I have no need to. 

I am an amateur, retired from years working in sales, marketing, product development/planning/support/management for a major computer manufacturer.  I have never claimed to be anything else. 

While I disagree with you, I try to respond in a civil manner.  I see no need for you to make personal attacks....don't you read Michael's posts...or can you just ignore them. 

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The idea of yours that the embedded JPEG in a raw in any way comes close to equating the raw itself is the kind of idea you'll get more traction from less educated users on DP Review. You should try talking with far less educated users there, LuLa is the place where most people will laugh out at such ideas. I've tried to explain my points to you a number of times and now, with your last concept of embedded JPEGs in raws, you've convinced me I'm reading DP Review newbie misunderstanding of image processing.

I never equated jpeg and a tiff...and clearly said it was analogous

For your benefit....

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Wikipedia...Analogy (from Greek ἀναλογία, analogia, "proportion"[1][2]) is a cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from one particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general. The word analogy can also refer to the relation between the source and the target themselves, which is often, though not necessarily, a similarity, as in the biological notion of analogy.

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Dictionary.com...
a·nal·o·gy
[uh-nal-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun, plural a·nal·o·gies.
1.
a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2.
similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
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John
digitaldog
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« Reply #549 on: May 09, 2013, 12:29:30 PM »
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Like Andrew said before, good for Adobe, not so good to the customers.

OK, how's this for conspiracy theories: Adobe thinks the current CC pricing (full or just single application) is too high but go for it, see if it sticks. If it does, great, we'll need a 2nd shovel to pickup all that cash. If there's a huge backlash (which is what's happening big time), release a lower price for both and come across as listening to their customers and then perceived (by some) as good guys.

Suppose after say a week of thinking you'll pay $50/19 per month you find out both fall in price by half. Would you then sign on?
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Andrew Rodney
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JanneAavasalo
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« Reply #550 on: May 09, 2013, 12:33:11 PM »
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We are less important customers for that reason (and because our narrow focus on photography makes it less likely that we'll pay for other Adobe products).

We don't really qualify as customers for PS CC -- we qualify as customers for LR and PS Elements.

This is by all means the truth, but profiling and categorizing photographers in small segments is a good way to get people pissed and not such a good business practice. But since we are a small group, they can do what ever they want with us in the end.

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So you will key-word outside PS/LR.

So you will export/save developed/edited work as TIFF.

This is an option, but it certainly isn't a reason I've bought a Digital Asset Management system in the first place.
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JanneAavasalo
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« Reply #551 on: May 09, 2013, 12:42:49 PM »
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OK, how's this for conspiracy theories: Adobe thinks the current CC pricing (full or just single application) is too high but go for it, see if it sticks. If it does, great, we'll need a 2nd shovel to pickup all that cash. If there's a huge backlash (which is what's happening big time), release a lower price for both and come across as listening to their customers and then perceived (by some) as good guys.

Suppose after say a week of thinking you'll pay $50/19 per month you find out both fall in price by half. Would you then sign on?

The theory is good and for some reason, I think it's not far off and there are a lot of similar cases in the history of business.

If they drop their pricing after a month, I'd deem them lost in their own schemes and a whirlwind, which can't be trusted. Who's to say that they won't increase the pricing threefold the next month.

This is at least for me a huge problem, I need and want continuity in everything I do. I don't want to think about "exit strategies" (although I do for cases like this) or how much work it will be if the worst case scenario happens. Renting something is far from the best way to provide this continuity, so I think I'd still wouldn't sign on.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #552 on: May 09, 2013, 12:46:43 PM »
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I understand the difference between a jpeg and a Tiff
Doesn't appear that way with the posts you made, trying unsuccessfully to equate a JPEG in a raw with a raw!

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I guess you never have any desire or need to  go back an modify a wip image, rather than restarting the raw or modifying the flattened tiff.  As you know, things like sharpening or blurring in a flattened cannot be easily fix, but are easy in the layered version.

First, the above sentence is in severe need of editing and clarification. I don't know what a wip image is. That said, I can count on one hand the times I've gone back to the original raw and started from scratch. And I've been processing images since 1990! Both for myself and others (for a few years as a service bureau). How's that as a start.

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Your signon is 'DigitalDog'; mine is 'jrsforums'.  As you (I think) I have the same signon for all of the forums I participate in.  You want yourself know for promotional purposes.  I have no need to.  
Again you've missed the point and the functionality. First, there's full transparency as to who I am, links to my web page etc. You could be a 10 year old boy or girl, playing on daddy's computer. There is no transparency as to who you are, what you do, and other than some odd ideas about image processing, you could be the CEO of Corel as far as anyone know.

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I am an amateur, retired from years working in sales, marketing, product development/planning/support/management for a major computer manufacturer.  I have never claimed to be anything else.
 
Let me point out you've never claimed anything up to this point! Thanks for that tidbit however.

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While I disagree with you, I try to respond in a civil manner.  I see no need for you to make personal attacks....don't you read Michael's posts...or can you just ignore them.  
My apologies if you were insulted.

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I never equated jpeg and a tiff...and clearly said it was analogous
No, it seems you equated a JPEG pulled out of a raw with the raw. If you didn't, you were equally unclear as to what your point was. You're apparently trying to link an issue with old proprietary raws that can't be rendered but can have a JPEG extracted as being analogous to a fully rendered high bit, high gamut image which isn't close to warrant an analogy. I'm not buying it for the reasons I illustrated.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #553 on: May 09, 2013, 12:53:09 PM »
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Yes, I think that this whole affair can almost be equated to science vs. religion.  What we have know is a known.  What we have moving forward with CC is an unknown.  Very little faith is required to assume that the status quo will continue to serve our needs as they now stand with a perpetual license.  With a rental approach, we are entirely in Adobe's hands, and have only faith to lean on.  Faith that Adobe will have enough market pressure and competition to do the right thing by us and not abuse their power in changing the terms an price on us at any time they deem themselves able to get away with it.  They have already breeched the trust of their user base in diverging from what they once said was going to be a dual licensing approach.  I have no faith that they will continue to do the right thing in the future, and quite a lot of faith is required to hitch my wagon to them in perpetuity.  Sorry, but I'm not a believer.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 12:57:13 PM by Colorwave » Logged

Isaac
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« Reply #554 on: May 09, 2013, 12:53:16 PM »
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This is by all means the truth, but profiling and categorizing photographers in small segments is a good way to get people pissed and not such a good business practice.

As I think you recognize, we aren't in the best position to evaluate whether that is good business practice for Adobe.

We are in a better position to evaluate what we need to do so we can continue to enjoy photography in the future.


This is an option, but it certainly isn't a reason I've bought a Digital Asset Management system in the first place.

Make a guess that LR will be available under the existing license for 5 years; and make a guess that you may need something independent of LR in the longer term ;-)
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s4e
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« Reply #555 on: May 09, 2013, 12:58:56 PM »
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It is the key here, but freezing the version as such doesn't work. This way you could get a subscription for a month, then "freeze" it and you'd have a new version for 20$. Not going to work.

What could work would be the "cell phone" approach, where you pay monthly for a phone & service and at the end of the subscription you'd own the phone. This would need versioning in predictable intervals inside the CC system and different subscription plans with limited duration. At the end you could renew the subscription and start paying for the next version and its updates within CC.

But that again would wreck the whole continuous update scheme Adobe has intended. It's a tough nut to crack, I'll give them that.

Usual in the software industry you pay an initial license and if you want you can pay a regular fee for free updates. You can stop this service any time and then you are allowed to continue using that latest version you got in the service agreement. If you want to restart this service usually you must pay also for the period you didn't pay.

Adobe's scheme is a little different. Someone suggest that you should be allowed to continue using your software after you have payed a certain minimum amount in rent.

This is not difficult if Adobe wants to find a model!
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jwstl
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« Reply #556 on: May 09, 2013, 12:59:27 PM »
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You bought into a technology. Someone somewhere mentioned VHS. Just because the technology changes doesn't mean the old VHS data is no longer any good or even accessible. If you decide to buy VHS then move to DVD, you've make the decision to change technology.
Yup, and I think that's the big issue most are pissed at, but from their side, it's very smart. If I give you an option to hire me for 1 day on-site or 2, what's a better option for you financially? If I tell you my on site minimum is 2 days I control this. You can tell me to bugger off, you'll find someone else just as you can tell Adobe to bugger off and use another software product. BUT, if you've already invested 4 days with me, or 4 years with Adobe software, the bugger off idea has severe negative implications for you.

Ultimately you have to decide to pay or tell us to bugger off.

I do understand many people don't like such severe changes or being forced to do something they didn't have to do in the past.

Again, not a great analogy. When I upgraded from from VHS to DVD all the VHS tapes I created still worked because I still had my player. No one took it away from me when I stopped buying VHS tapes. Continuing your analogy, when I upgraded to Blu-ray I could still play my DVDs because the creators of the new technology knew it would be important for me to continue to be able to access those. However, I wasn't forced to buy Blu-ray to play DVDs. Companies still make players and the ones I have still function.

As to whether or not this decision by Adobe is "smart"; I'd say that remains to be seen.
I do agree that the decision is an individual one and I've made mine. I will tell Adobe to bugger off...for now. I recently purchased CS6 and I will use that when necessary, I will continue to look at alternatives, and I will wait to see how things shake out. I don't believe what they are offering now is the final word.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #557 on: May 09, 2013, 01:02:39 PM »
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Andrew..sorry...different background, different knowledge of terms

WIP
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Wikipedia...Work in process,[1][2][3][4] work in progress,[5][6][7] (WIP) goods in process,[8] or in-process inventory are a company's partially finished goods waiting for completion and eventual sale or the value of these items.[9] These items are either just being fabricated or waiting for further processing in a queue or a buffer storage. The term is used in production and supply chain management.

In the PS sence, I have extended this to include unflattened PSD/Tiffs, on the basis that they are works in process if you decide to alter the work you had done prior.
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« Reply #558 on: May 09, 2013, 01:04:17 PM »
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Again, not a great analogy. When I upgraded from from VHS to DVD all the VHS tapes I created still worked because I still had my player. No one took it away from me when I stopped buying VHS tapes.

Who's taking away the version of Photoshop you used to create the documents you'll take into CC?
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Andrew Rodney
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JanneAavasalo
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« Reply #559 on: May 09, 2013, 01:07:20 PM »
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Who's taking away the version of Photoshop you used to create the documents you'll take into CC?

No one at the moment, but CC subscription model changes this down the road.
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