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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 78359 times)
jrsforums
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« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2013, 10:54:48 PM »
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If I understand correctly we can convert newer cameras files to dng and use our older version of camera raw as long as they continue supporting dng and don't move it off to a cloud.

Yep...we have that now.  Guess Camera Raw 8.x support is not that important  Grin
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #81 on: May 07, 2013, 12:27:16 AM »
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...and society in general has moved to a whole new way of doing business...

What society? And what new way of doing business? Why are they so vague and talk in riddles? Why can't they just spell it out?

What needs to get done that requires a Cloud system subscription for upgrading software?

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Schewe
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« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2013, 12:37:53 AM »
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What needs to get done that requires a Cloud system subscription for upgrading software?

Anything that uses the new Photoshop CC features...YMMV!
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2013, 01:03:50 AM »
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That Adobe doesn't want to piss off users, but they realize some people will not be happy about the cloud and they're very sorry, but their mind has been made up...no more perpetual and subscription licenses only.

Jeff,

I have a very good understanding of this business model. It works for corporations, mostly doesn't for isolated users.

I will personally not purchase software on a rental basis and a majority of photographers will take the same decision.

This Adobe decision is simply unacceptable.

I am really pissed because it means I will have to spend tens of hours learning how to use an alternative that will probably not be as good. I am very disappointed that the money I invested in Adobe product over the years resulted in so little interest by Adobe decision makers into my needs as a customer.

This, combined with the decision of Apple to speed up the rate of upgrade of new OS releases makes the Abobe/Apple combination a no go for photography moving forward. The odds that a valid alternative for PS show up quickly is much higher in the Windows world.

I am incredibly pissssssed. And I am weighting my words here.

Cheers,
Bernard
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jrsforums
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« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2013, 01:33:19 AM »
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I have less of a problem with renting vs. a perceptual license.  For many reasons I may, and probably will consider it...for now.

My problem is that once you "get on the train" there is no way to get off and retain access to you data and creation steps.

A very strong analogy is the Kodak Photo CD which the DNG proponents use as an example to put fear in the hearts of RAW users.  When Kodak dropped support, no one could get at the image data and/or work with it any more.  Same with other early RAW files.

This subsciption service is quite similar.  If for any reason you do not want or cannot pay the continuing monthly fee, you totally lose all access to all the work product create with the latest software....because Adobe will no longer let you use it.  Going back to CS6 is not an alternative, if you have been using the newer features.

What would make me feel a lot better would be if Adobe offered a one time "get off the train" pass.  That is, you could stop the subscription, but would retain the software you were using in its current state.  I would not even mind if executing this required a reasonable additional fee.

One can imagine lots of scenarios where this would be needed, even required.  Any of us could be in that situation and it drives fear in our hearts, which makes us very wary of commiting to CC.  Personally, I am of the age where I can see that I will not be that active in taking new images....new cameras will not be bought...continued payment for CC not justified...or even affordable vs medical and or food/housing...but I still may want to go back and work the images in my archives....it will still be a hobby, at least.

John
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John
BrianWJH
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« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2013, 01:36:11 AM »
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Thanks....looks like support for new cameras will probably end when CS6 stops shipping.  

Yep, well that's as of today, checking the .au website and there is no CS6 trial downloads only CS6-CC.

After contacting their telephone purchasing number I was informed that CS6(non-subscription version) is no longer being sold and that the reason is that CS7 is imminent and after probing further I was told that CS7 will be available as a non-subscription purchase, so go figure.

While not happy about being forced into a $ub$cription model I'll wait until the "imminent" release of CS7 (non-subscription version) before passing further judgement.

Cheers.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2013, 01:46:05 AM »
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All I have to say is that I can't think of any other company that gives me such value for a small monthly fee.

$50 a month for software I use for hours on end.  I doubt it even comes out to a dollar an hour.

I have even replaced most of my scanner software with ACR.

Hell if I remember correctly Phase One wanted $ 100 for an eyecup for the DF that isn't even a proper eyecup.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2013, 01:46:35 AM »
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I would...there's no basis.

FUD isn't useful doode...in fact, recent behavior by Adobe indicates the exact opposite. You'll note that due to technical and security issues, the old Photoshop CS2 activation servers had to be taken down. So, what did Adobe do? The made the entire CR2 suite available for users and gave them serial numbers that didn't require activation–knowing full well a whole bunch of people who DID'T have a CS2 license would help themselves to the freebie (and they did).

It would be more useful if you actually kept things in the realm of reality when discussing this topic. Spreading FUD may be fun for you, but it doesn't anybody else any favors...

1.  Is that your professional legal opinion?  Anti-trust laws exist to protect against the creation of a monopoly and the abuse thereof.  It could be argued Adobe has a monopoly on certain technologies.  It could further be argued that Adobe by removing the most common method of purchase and ownership, is abusing their position in the marketplace.  It could be argued their "cloud" method of activation and requiring an internet connection of sufficient quality alienates a good portion of the world (including many parts of our own country who live in rural areas without internet) without sufficient internet, and even if they allowed phone validation they'd be at a professional, creative, and financial disadvantage in obtaining fair access to the technology they're paying for.. but not receiving.  Geez dude, I could write argument after argument from now till the upcoming court date.  If I can do it don't you think there are Adobe haters and others out there already planning the same?  

And let's keep in mind that anti-trust suits can be more/less successful based on content depending on which country's laws are being applied.  Different countries not only have different requirements, but also different heights for the bar to validate the requirements.e  Adobe is an international product.  Losing such a case in the EU, Asia, or other large marketplace might or might not give them sufficient reason to standardize/revise their policies.

2.  FUD -  Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.   Fun?  No sir.  Reasonable and prudent as a consumer who has observed tech companies take advantage of the public time and again?  Yes, it is.  Lecturing me on my motivations which you know nothing about:  it might be fun for you but it's not doing anyone any favours.

Reality?  Seriously?  The head in the sand approach doesn't benefit anyone.  Adobe isn't innocent of questionable business practices.  They've committed, and continue to commit, some surprisingly serious practices which leads me to believe they're not at all past finding a way to shut off activations at some point.  Or that the language of our current licenses couldn't already be twisted/argued to this end.  And we won't know until they decide to do it and we hear their defence in the courtrooms.

The truth is, money is the most common motivator for poor business behaviour.  Many argue that without this motivation we wouldn't have wars.  A corporation exists only to enrich their shareholders and when push comes to shove there are very few if any limits they'll stoop to.  Only our laws and a vigilant (and I dare say skeptical) public who isn't afraid to ask questions keeps them in check.  Perhaps it's more damaging when fanboys of certain corporations try to suppress such questioning.
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phila
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« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2013, 01:53:38 AM »
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Question. I have CS6. So I go with CC but after a year (or three) decide to "drop out". Will files (TIFFs, JPEGs) that were originally opened in PS CC still be able to be opened & worked on in CS6? Will adjustments that were made with CC tools and features and don't exist in CS6 still be there? I'd assume so but just looking for some confirmation.

At least one advantage with CC is that we Oz Adobe customers are paying the same price as the US (actually a bit cheaper given the current exchange rate) instead of being charged a 100-200% mark up price for new or upgraded versions!
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jrsforums
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« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2013, 01:55:54 AM »
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What needs to get done that requires a Cloud system subscription for upgrading software?

Tim, as I am sure you are aware, there should be no difference in building and testing for the subscription model or enduring model...at least not lowering QA goals.  There may be some savings ormarketing roll outs and "big tent events" which are normally made with major releases, but one must expect that marketing will still want to "blow their horn" on major new additions.  My view....this is primarilyfinancial cash flow driven.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2013, 01:59:23 AM »
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Question. I have CS6. So I go with CC but after a year (or three) decide to "drop out". Will files (TIFFs, JPEGs) that were originally opened in PS CC still be able to be opened & worked on in CS6? Will adjustments that were made with CC tools and features and don't exist in CS6 still be there? I'd assume so but just looking for some confirmation.

At least one advantage with CC is that we Oz Adobe customers are paying the same price as the US (actually a bit cheaper given the current exchange rate) instead of being charged a 100-200% mark up price for new or upgraded versions!

Jpegs and flatten Tiffs should be viewable via CS6...or any other processor, including Irfanview and faststone.  Layered tiffs and PSDs are another story, depending on the newer functions used.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2013, 02:11:59 AM »
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1.  Is that your professional legal opinion?  Anti-trust laws exist to protect against the creation of a monopoly and the abuse thereof.  It could be argued Adobe has a monopoly on certain technologies.  It could further be argued that Adobe by removing the most common method of purchase and ownership, is abusing their position in the marketplace.  It could be argued their "cloud" method of activation and requiring an internet connection of sufficient quality alienates a good portion of the world (including many parts of our own country who live in rural areas without internet) without sufficient internet, and even if they allowed phone validation they'd be at a professional, creative, and financial disadvantage in obtaining fair access to the technology they're paying for.. but not receiving.  Geez dude, I could write argument after argument from now till the upcoming court date.  If I can do it don't you think there are Adobe haters and others out there already planning the same?  

And let's keep in mind that anti-trust suits can be more/less successful based on content depending on which country's laws are being applied.  Different countries not only have different requirements, but also different heights for the bar to validate the requirements.e  Adobe is an international product.  Losing such a case in the EU, Asia, or other large marketplace might or might not give them sufficient reason to standardize/revise their policies.

2.  FUD -  Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.   Fun?  No sir.  Reasonable and prudent as a consumer who has observed tech companies take advantage of the public time and again?  Yes, it is.  Lecturing me on my motivations which you know nothing about:  it might be fun for you but it's not doing anyone any favours.

Reality?  Seriously?  The head in the sand approach doesn't benefit anyone.  Adobe isn't innocent of questionable business practices.  They've committed, and continue to commit, some surprisingly serious practices which leads me to believe they're not at all past finding a way to shut off activations at some point.  Or that the language of our current licenses couldn't already be twisted/argued to this end.  And we won't know until they decide to do it and we hear their defence in the courtrooms.

The truth is, money is the most common motivator for poor business behaviour.  Many argue that without this motivation we wouldn't have wars.  A corporation exists only to enrich their shareholders and when push comes to shove there are very few if any limits they'll stoop to.  Only our laws and a vigilant (and I dare say skeptical) public who isn't afraid to ask questions keeps them in check.  Perhaps it's more damaging when fanboys of certain corporations try to suppress such questioning.

I find it interesting when I used the term FUD to describe Jeff Schewe's arguments for why the OEM RAW manufacturers must provide DNG output (even though it was no benefit to them).  He we quite insulted that his arguments were "attacked" that way.

Well...now with the shoe on the other foot, it appears he has taken the term on as his own. It is surprising how flexible his stories are.  One day you full of 'doode' for your idea or words and the next, Jeff has discovered/invented/created this new concept or method that all show follow.  (For example, follow his dissertations on PPI for printing and functionality or printer interpolation....it is an interesting insight into the supposed "guru")
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John
Rhossydd
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« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2013, 02:16:24 AM »
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How is Adobe products going to be used creating content (ads & web page design) on such small screens where ads often don't fit or are made difficult to see?
If you ever see a full demonstration of the Adobe Marketing Cloud suite and how that integrates with CC for delivering ads tailor made for specific devices, in seconds, you'll know how all this fits together.

I've read a lot here from rightly indignant photographers, but Adobe don't care about us, our revenue hardly features on their balance sheets. What they're after is establishing a similar share of the integrated internet marketing budget and getting the same dominance there they had in the graphics industry.
Tying people into subscription based products that become an integral part of their business is a shrewd and clever business move.
What they will need to do is keep an eye over their shoulder at Google, I can see Adobe becoming a target for a buy out.

If you're a photographer on a budget that isn't having to supply images to a client images via CC, get over it and move on.

The next hurdle will be the escape plan from Lightroom.

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mouse
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« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2013, 02:22:18 AM »
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After contacting their telephone purchasing number I was informed that CS6(non-subscription version) is no longer being sold and that the reason is that CS7 is imminent and after probing further I was told that CS7 will be available as a non-subscription purchase, so go figure.

While not happy about being forced into a $ub$cription model I'll wait until the "imminent" release of CS7 (non-subscription version) before passing further judgement.

Cheers.

Very reliable information in the USA indicates the contrary:  CS7 will not be made available as a non-subscription version.

Suggest you double check.
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bill t.
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« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2013, 02:38:45 AM »
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Within just the last few days the Adobe site has removed a curious page that seemed to suggest the CS6->CS7 upgrade would be a tidy US $399.  So I suspect any recent promises of upgrade paths may simply come from somebody not keeping up with in house communications.

I certainly am getting the impression that this CC-only decision came down rather suddenly within Adobe.  Was there a palace coup or something? 
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Jack Hogan
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« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2013, 02:47:37 AM »
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Add me to non-core extremely pissssssed users who feel totally disrespected, abused and gouged.  Here's to hoping that others like Nik, Topaz, Corel or whoever move in quickly to fill the void these geniuses are leaving.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 02:50:45 AM by Jack Hogan » Logged
Colorwave
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« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2013, 02:53:40 AM »
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Welcome back Live Picture!  We missed you, old friend.
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Jack Hogan
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« Reply #97 on: May 07, 2013, 02:54:17 AM »
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The monthly subscription cost is about twice what it costs to pay USD 200 on each 18 month upgrade cycle. The key issue is whether enough people will go for this to keep the shareholders smiling, or how many will just stop upgrading because they fell they have all the image processing power they really need.

It's about four times the cost to the average non-core user around here who only upgraded every other cycle: that's less than $5/month.   Less effort, more money: that's how kings lose their crowns.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2013, 02:56:32 AM »
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Very reliable information in the USA indicates the contrary:  CS7 will not be made available as a non-subscription version.

Suggest you double check.

Hi,

Their press release seems pretty clear:
Quote
While Adobe Creative Suite 6 products will continue to be supported and available for purchase, the company has no plans for future releases of Creative Suite or other CS products.

Cheers,
Bart
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2013, 03:04:41 AM »
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It's about four times the cost to the average non-core user around here who only upgraded every other cycle: that's less than $5/month.   Less effort, more money: that's how kings lose their crowns.

I am thinking of starting a Facebook page focused on raising awareness about this issue...

Any idea on how to call it?

Cheers,
Bernard
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