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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 76862 times)
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #660 on: May 13, 2013, 08:28:22 AM »
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 I just cancelled my NAPP membership. If I stay with CS6 I don't need NAPP.

Are you feeling tempted?

I wouldn't cancel my NAPP membership because of this. I think the magazine alone is worth the ticket. Much creative and innovative stuff in it every month by some of the best in the industry. CS6 is a tool - what you do with it has infinite possibilities and a NAPP membership helps to keep the mind exercised. I say this with no other interest than being an ordinary NAPP member myself.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #661 on: May 13, 2013, 08:35:50 AM »
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Do you want to subscribe to a service that, if you choose to stop the subscription at any time later in life, you will lose the capability to further edit those images with Photoshop?

That's absolutely incorrect! As long as you have a copy of Photoshop, ANY copy, you can open those images, you can edit those images. You may not like the lack of some editing functionality IN Photoshop you yourself caused by moving back a version (or more), but if you save the data with this in mind, you could open that image in Photoshop 1!

I've gone back and forth from CC to CS6 but you have to be smart about doing something that traditionally (moving backwards) has seemed unnecessary and to some, rather silly.

You can of course open and edit these images in hundreds of products, again you need to be smart about doing this (save as TIFF). Apple Preview easily opens even a CC PSD (without layers of course). But open and edit? Sure.
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Andrew Rodney
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #662 on: May 13, 2013, 09:37:28 AM »
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I've gone back and forth from CC to CS6 but you have to be smart about doing something that traditionally (moving backwards) has seemed unnecessary and to some, rather silly.

Hi Andrew,

What happens when you have to fall back on CS6 in the middle of a project that depends on access to a new feature layer, because there is an issue with the subscription verification of your CC (could be as simple as no internet available at a somewhat remote location, or a moron severing the local fiber connection by digging in the wrong place, or something more malicious such as a DDOS attack crippling access to the verification servers)? What happens when Adobe increases the monthly subscription rate to an unacceptable level?

You wouldn't like to have a deadline that needs to be met when that happens, would you?

It's not always about being silly, or irrational, or to stingy, or temporarily broke because you have to pay to cure a life threatening disease ..., it's also about contingency planning and being prudent and prepared and not risking one's livelihood.

Do you still trust Adobe (enough) to even care about your well being?

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 09:46:11 AM by BartvanderWolf » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #663 on: May 13, 2013, 10:18:31 AM »
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What happens when you have to fall back on CS6 in the middle of a project that depends on access to a new feature layer, because there is an issue with the subscription verification of your CC (could be as simple as no internet available at a somewhat remote location, or a moron severing the local fiber connection by digging in the wrong place, or something more malicious such as a DDOS attack crippling access to the verification servers)? What happens when Adobe increases the monthly subscription rate to an unacceptable level?
If you moved back to CS6 with new CC data like Round Rectangle layers SO's with CC only processing, and you open that TIFF or PSD, Photoshop will pop a dialog:

Quote
This document contains unknown data which will be discarded to keep layers editable. To preserve the original appearance instead, choose Flatten to load composite data as a flattened image.
You now have a number of options! The above two do allow you to open the documents despite the web filled with people saying you can't.

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It's not always about being silly, or irrational, or to stingy, or temporarily broke because you have to pay to cure a life threatening disease ..., it's also about contingency planning and being prudent and prepared and not risking one's livelihood.
What happens if an Earthquake or meteor or bird flu shut down Adobe servers?
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #664 on: May 13, 2013, 10:27:07 AM »
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What happens if an Earthquake or meteor or bird flu shut down Adobe servers?


In my line of business, when dealing with the contractual underpinnings of projects, we make a distinction between "Force Majeure Events"(FME)  and normal business risk. What you are talking about above is FME, and what Bart is talking about is normal business risk. The former by definition is beyond anyone's control, but the latter is controllable, can be shaped, and the risk can be mitigated by design and allocated. I don't think it makes sense to confuse these things. 
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #665 on: May 13, 2013, 10:35:14 AM »
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In my line of business, when dealing with the contractual underpinnings of projects, we make a distinction between "Force Majeure Events"(FME)  and normal business risk. What you are talking about above is FME, and what Bart is talking about is normal business risk. The former by definition is beyond anyone's control, but the latter is controllable, can be shaped, and the risk can be mitigated by design and allocated. I don't think it makes sense to confuse these things.  

I don't think so (at least in the example of Bart's). If you are in a middle of a project, I would suspect Photoshop CC has phoned home as my understanding is it runs for a period of time without the need to activate (30 days? I need to check because I've heard other figures far higher).

There are two points here that are getting crossed. One is the idea that if you have CC, you can no longer move back and open the documents. That's simply untrue. Now in terms of Bart's scenario, if there's some issue in activation whereby it's going to take a dump on you in the middle of nowhere and you can't run it, that be a legitimate issue to hang on Adobe.

I've got software that cost more than the entire Creative Suite does and can't run without a dongle. I've got drawers full of Dongles too. Talk about a problem: being on location, needing the software and the dongle dies, goes missing, breaks etc. Nothing new.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #666 on: May 13, 2013, 10:48:00 AM »
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I would suspect Photoshop CC has phoned home as my understanding is it runs for a period of time without the need to activate (30 days? I need to check because I've heard other figures far higher).

From Adobe FAQ:

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You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days.  However, you'll be able to use products for 3 months (99 days) even if you're offline.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #667 on: May 13, 2013, 12:05:41 PM »
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I'm sorry, as a Photoshop user since version 2.5 (1992) and every version since then, this is a HUGE slap in the face and F*CK YOU to the many people who made Adobe successful, especially pro photographers and designers. This ties you into a never ending round of "upgrade" on their timetable, not yours. As a photographer, I use Photoshop (CS6) and Lightroom regularly. I also use InDesign and Illustrator (version CS5), but nowhere nearly as frequently, and Dreamweaver CS4 once in a blue moon. Don't get me started on Acrobat (version 10) -- in many ways, THAT has been seriously screwed up since version 5, which to me had the best usability. (All mine are PC versions.)

Meanwhile, my wife is a graphic designer who works on a Mac. Her primary tool is InDesign (CS6), and to lesser degree, Illustrator and Photoshop (both CS5), as well as Acrobat 5 and 8. (She has always felt FreeHand was far superior to Illustrator, which Adobe bought to keep out competition.) For both of us, this forces us into upgrading ALL Adobe programs, regardless of use and priority and budget, and if we don't it renders what we have inoperable. I don't mean something like a TIFF can't be opened. But I mean InDesign files are held hostage, as well as Illustrator. NOT a good business model for the end user. A great revenue stream for Adobe. This forces us all into the upgrade treadmill and "renting" our software forever. I guess this is what come from lack of competition or standardizing on one series of software.

We saw this kind of arrogance with Quark. Eventually, it shot itself in the foot and is close to being a footnote. It is because we have all put too much faith in Adobe that they have now taken us hostage. I tried a test myself of what the future holds. I was beta user of Muse -- a relatively good little WYSIWYG web design program. Currently a lot of limitations, but I produced a decent web site with the initial version 1 release. I decided to go back  ayear later and see if I could edit the original design file. No go. Had to update the program. (Of course, in the "old days", it would not have mattered if I had version 1 still.) I decided to blow $180 and opt for the annual subscription. For the better part of the day, my system tried downloading the update and never completed. Finally, the next day, I succeeded. This is our future. As another footnote, the "backward compatibility" is crap. With each iteration of InDesign, for instance, the indd format as changed and IS NOT backward compatible. If you try to open a CS6 indd file with CS5, you will fail.

Issue #2: Download speeds and the arrogance of Silicon Valley. I'm a NYC based photographer. However, for reasons of personal lifestyle and quality of life, I choose to live in the hinterlands of PA (and previously, VA) -- not the hotbed of internet speed. On a good day, I'm looking at maybe 4Mb/s download. Silicon Valley seems to think everyone has 20Mb/s or higher. Hey, they do, doesn't everyone? (The US has one of the poorest ratings for national internet speeds of all the industrial nations of the world.) Just the 1GB of Photoshop takes the better part of a day -- hence why I go with a CD/DVD. (Because Apple has the same mentality, it takes my wife a day to download any new OS X.) Can you imagine the length of time required to update not one but two computers with: Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, Acrobat and Muse on a regular basis?

I'm sorry, this is sheer and utter crap. I have no problem with businesses trying to make a profit. I do have a problem with businesses trying to hold my business hostage. And should I ever end up the in subscription model, I will NEVER entrust Adobe to hold my files in their Cloud. (Another absurd notion for them. Like I'd have the bandwidth and time to store hundred or thousands of gigbytes of images on some cloud server.) And I will seriously look for alternate programs where I can. (For anyone who want s a great Illustrator alternate, try Canvas. Ten times better a program, easier to use. Illustrator is simply a backup to that for me.)

One final thought. Note that Adobe has NOT made Lightroom subscription only. Can you guess why? I'll give you at least three big reasons: Apple Aperture, Capture One and DxO Optics. All very credible alternatives. I'm glad I work with the later two. Maybe I need to hone my skills better with those for the future.

Nemo  Angry
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:07:13 PM by nemophoto » Logged

Edhopkins
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« Reply #668 on: May 13, 2013, 12:18:35 PM »
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Just a quick technical question/note:

Didn't you have to pay for both a PC version and a Mac version of all those Adobe programs?

If you went to the CC version, wouldn't you just have to buy one version?   (I thought you could pay your monthly fee and down load either version--up to two copies. So you could have your mac version and you pc version.)

Would this save you a bundle or have I gotten confused?



ed
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #669 on: May 13, 2013, 12:30:01 PM »
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Just a quick technical question/note:

Didn't you have to pay for both a PC version and a Mac version of all those Adobe programs?

If you went to the CC version, wouldn't you just have to buy one version?   (I thought you could pay your monthly fee and down load either version--up to two copies. So you could have your mac version and you pc version.)

Would this save you a bundle or have I gotten confused?
That's correct, Ed, though it's hard to say whether it's something good about CC or just that they've stopped doing something pernicious.
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nemophoto
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« Reply #670 on: May 13, 2013, 12:40:00 PM »
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Hi Ed,

Yes, we DID pay for both versions. We have two totally separate business, mine being a full corporation (and has been since the early '80's in DC) and my wife is a sole proprietor. So, technically, we keep things separate. Now that said, I've already thought of screwing Adobe out of one user. I'd buy, say, Photoshop and Illustrator and share with my wife, while she'd buy InDesign and share with me. Then, when I'm on location, I have Photoshop loaded on my notebook and deactivate PS CC on my desktop.

Yes, all that works. The difference, is, I HATE being forced into a corner to use and buy software when someone else thinks I should, not when I feel it's the correct time. (And it still doesn't get me past slow download speeds.) And, have you actually looked at the model of all the different pricing that Adobe is offering on the programs? Figuring out my best financial plan on what to update and how made my head spin.

Just a quick technical question/note:

Didn't you have to pay for both a PC version and a Mac version of all those Adobe programs?

If you went to the CC version, wouldn't you just have to buy one version?   (I thought you could pay your monthly fee and down load either version--up to two copies. So you could have your mac version and you pc version.)

Would this save you a bundle or have I gotten confused?



ed
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Sharon Van Lieu
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« Reply #671 on: May 13, 2013, 12:53:46 PM »
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It does work on both platforms but you both can't use it at the same time on a single subscription, if I understand it correctly. I thought your point about the competition and Lightroom was spot on.

Sharon
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« Reply #672 on: May 13, 2013, 12:55:18 PM »
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It does work on both platforms but you both can't use it at the same time on a single subscription, if I understand it correctly.

I think it's two activations per serial/license so you should be free to mix and match.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #673 on: May 13, 2013, 12:59:28 PM »
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I think it's two activations per serial/license so you should be free to mix and match.

From Adobe:

Quote
You may install software on up to two computers. These two computers can be Windows, Mac OS, or one each.
If you install on a third computer, it will request you to de-activate on the other two computers.  You can then reactivate one of the previous two computers, and use Creative Cloud apps on it.
 
If you regularly need to use the Creative Cloud on more than two computers then it would be best to purchase an additional subscription.  This is the same licensing btw which we have for our prepetual product.  An advantage though for Creative Cloud over the prepetural product is that you can install on Mac and Windows with the same subscription!

Sounds just like earlier activations where in theory, you could install on a dozen computers. Just as long as you have net access to Activate/Deactivate and end up with two per subscription/serial.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #674 on: May 13, 2013, 04:52:03 PM »
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One final thought. Note that Adobe has NOT made Lightroom subscription only. Can you guess why? I'll give you at least three big reasons: Apple Aperture, Capture One and DxO Optics. All very credible alternatives. I'm glad I work with the later two. Maybe I need to hone my skills better with those for the future.
Nemo  Angry
Agreed. I don't share the widespread belief that LR6 will be cloud only, not because I particularly love or trust Adobe, but because there is real competition which would welcome the resulting flood of Adobe deserters with open cash registers. The belief it will be cloud only seems largely to be based on the fact that Adobe says it won't. This is some kind of evidence, I grant you, but I think self-interest will trump any natural desire to upset their users.
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JanneAavasalo
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« Reply #675 on: May 13, 2013, 07:25:27 PM »
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For anyone who want s a great Illustrator alternate, try Canvas. Ten times better a program, easier to use. Illustrator is simply a backup to that for me.

Hey Nemo,

A bit OT, but is this the software you are recommending here?

That's the only Canvas-named program that does vector graphics, but I'm still not sure about it, so if you could clarify, thanks.
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nemophoto
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« Reply #676 on: May 13, 2013, 07:44:25 PM »
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Yup, that's that's program. I've actually been a Canvas user since about version 5 or so. I bought originally in frustration with, you name it, Adobe and Illustrator. For the longest time, Illustrator was stuck at version 4 or 4.5 -- something like that -- so I said screw it, and bought it. While it's strong suite is vector graphics for technical drawings, etc., it will also handle bitmaps images. (Granted, not as elegant as Photoshop in that respect, but I like it so much more than Illustrator.) Most recently, I used it to create a scaled rendering of a gallery display of some of my images for a client. He wanted to see size relationships, etc., as well as use as a setup guide for the gallery, since he planned on having it travel. Easiest program in the world to use for that program -- much more so than Illustrator or Photoshop.

Hey Nemo,

A bit OT, but is this the software you are recommending here?

That's the only Canvas-named program that does vector graphics, but I'm still not sure about it, so if you could clarify, thanks.
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« Reply #677 on: May 14, 2013, 09:29:31 AM »
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No connection to Adobe Systems Incorporated.
No personal crusade.

Like someone said in one of these discussion threads - there's enough not to like about the Adobe announcement without endlessly repeating misunderstandings, misinformation and cynical speculation.

Ya sure, but customers are prone to do such things.
One can dig through Adobe marketing/sales collateral and come up with all kinds of objective statements that 'correct' all the misunderstanding et al. That does little or nothing to ameliorate the negativity that Adobe has created among a cross section of their customers.
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Isaac
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« Reply #678 on: May 14, 2013, 11:50:56 AM »
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As my grandmother often said 50 years ago -- "there's nowt so queer as folk".

Take a deep breath. Separate the facts from the speculation. Figure out what's best for you. ;-)
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« Reply #679 on: May 14, 2013, 01:36:05 PM »
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Actually, Adobe has already said that Camera Raw 8.x will run in both Photoshop CC (with the full new feature set) AND in Photoshop CS6 (which will run without the new features). So, for new camera support, Photoshop CS6 will get new cameras added by updating to ACR 8.x.

Schewe, a few questions if you don't mind. Am I right in thinking that ACR 8 will be released next month? Are you saying that once released more updates to ACR 8 will become available over time to those with CS6 and these will continue until ACR 9 comes along?

TIA 
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