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Question: Will you move to Capture one
Yes - 16 (36.4%)
No - 28 (63.6%)
Total Voters: 44

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Author Topic: Two Versions of Lightroom  (Read 7789 times)
Schewe
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2013, 12:59:21 AM »
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and there is no doubt that LR6 will be only subscription based too, it just happened that LR5 was a little ahead and Adobe wanted to try the full switch on simply lesser amount of CS users

And you know this how? Have you talked to Tom Hogarty? Have you talked to Winston Hendrickson? I have...and I think there is a strong likely hood that Lightroom will be a part of CC but not dropped as a perpetual license option..,yes there may be interesting and compelling optional functionality only available when cloud enabled...but the way I read the tea leaves, those will be enhanced cloud functionality, not impacting LR's core functionality of import, process and output.

There is a lot of doubt that LR5+ (meaning 6, 7 and beyond) will be CC only–in my mind.

Do you have any shred of evidence to the contrary?

Care to share it?

Or is this just you speculating?
(and trying to spread FUD).
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2013, 01:29:26 AM »
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Simon I think you already know the answer to that question. No one at Adobe is talking about LR6. Adobe has proven that its all about the money.....not exactly a socially responsible company. Kind of like garment factories in Bangledesh! By the way, Disney will no longer allow its products to be made in non socially responsible factories period, and Adobe's customers will no longer care to do business with it also.
People seems to tend to be idealists when it comes to other peoples investments, while they are pragmatic when it comes to their own investments. People will turn to the streets to protest against blood-sucking corporations, but when they purchase an air ticket, a pair of trousers etc, they will base their decision mostly on what is good for them.

People don't buy shares because they want to be nice to the photographers of this world. They buy shares because they want to want to have food on the table when they retire, or to finance the kids education or whatever. If the shares gives a lower return than possible, they won't be happy. Would you? How much of your retirement would you be willing to give up in order for a company like Adobe to pursue anything but the goals that they deem most profitable?

Now, the company executives, the board and the share owners may have more or less realistic ideas about what strategy will maximize the return on the shareholders investment. They may be stupid. There may be insentives that are irrational for the owners. The bosses may be corrupt. But I don't think that they deserve a flogging for "being all about the money".


My guess is that Photoshop is mature enough (i.e. they have problems introducing must-have improvements) that many users don't need to upgrade very often (other than if forced by OS upgrades and/or camera upgrades). Adobe realize this, and they want to ensure that they have a steady stream of income in years to come based on the initial investment in making a great, seemingly indispensible industry-standard image editor. I don't know if this will work out for them. Being a tech person myself, I tend to prefer market stragegies based on technical superiority: make Photoshop/Lightroom/... as good as possible. If you do, many people will be willing to part with sufficient cash that you will be profitable.

I don't believe that developing CC and CS versions alongside each other would be that much of a burden. I do, however, think that releasing 4 stable minor releases each year is considerable more of a burden than releasing 1 larger release each 1.5 year. Worst case, they could release dot releases as CC and major releases as CS (CS would sync up with CC every e.g. 18 months). I think it has more to do with stable, predictable income and "forcing" those upgrading every 5 years to pay more or get lost.

-h
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 02:03:58 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
Vladimirovich
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2013, 01:34:18 AM »
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And you know this how? Have you talked to Tom Hogarty? Have you talked to Winston Hendrickson? I have...

and ?

is moving to subscription only model more profitable for Adobe than keeping both subscription and perpetual models ? yes, it is - otherwise why make such a move.

and why what is profitable for CS will not be profitable for LR ? LR crowd is actually more captive than ACR/PS crowd, because LR was specifically designed to enslave the users.
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Schewe
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2013, 01:40:45 AM »
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and ?

And, you didn't respond to any of my questions in a reasonable manner...perhaps English isn't your primary language? Re-read what I said and translate it a couple of times and see if you can understand what I asked you...

Again, do you have any facts or are you just spreading FUD?

Be honest dooode...or be gone.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 01:49:13 AM »
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Be honest dooode...
and that is from a person who says "Anti-CC crowd" instead of correct "Anti-CC only crowd"... how about a mirror ?
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Schewe
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2013, 02:02:48 AM »
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and that is from a person who says "Anti-CC crowd" instead of correct "Anti-CC only crowd"... how about a mirror ?

I'm looking in a mirror right now...I'm fine with what I see. You?
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JRSmit
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2013, 02:55:15 AM »
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Seems to me that quite a few people around the world needs to develop an understanding of the very large container concept of "the cloud". In fact using this forum is using a cloud service, lula does not own this infrastructure and software needed to provide this forum. It is a cloud service! Is it THE CLOUD , no it is not it is just a subset of the total cloud concept. As far as i understand Adobe, their cloud concept is about: subscription to use their software, being still on your own hardware; file sharing and file storage, both of them are not mandatory, you can do your own file storage and sharing. But if you use dropbox, google drive or any other file sharing you are actually using a cloud service. Now Adobe and individuals both focus on the main driver: added value. I cannot flog Adobe for doing that. Going into the cloud is a shift in paradigm for adobe and its community of users. Thus as a paraphrase: them gong into the cloud creates a cloud, making the whole thing pretty invisible. I hope the dust settles quickly, and all i can hope for at the moment is that it turns out to be a good move of adobe. At the end of the day, my move to lightroom a few years ago was simply because it provided to me the most added value, leaving the previously used solutions in the dust. It still is on the whole the best solution for me today, and looking forward to the LR5 functionality.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2013, 04:14:00 AM »
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Just been watching Tom Hogarty's performance on The Grid and his explanation of how a CC/ LR workflow could go: basically it's a no-brainer that raw processing on an iPad will be best done parametrically, and sync'd through some cloud or other between iPad app and desktop LR. Just what we need? Could be!

So I'm not going to go near a PSCC - simply won't be cost-effective for the little  time I spend in PS nowadays - but  I would be seriously interested in something that let me do tone, colour, presence, crop, key wording etc on Smart Previews on a train somewhere, then find all that work  done when I get home to LR.
Question remains how much this will cost. Here I  think we'd have to hope to see some competition, maybe from Aperture and iCloud... after  all, Aperture's pricing seems able to impact on LR's
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rasterdogs
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2013, 09:53:01 AM »
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FUD  Huh
Sure there's FUD. For me the FUD is significantly related to Adobe's actions, pricing, and communications.
As a mere hobbyist photographer and a 'loyal' Adobe customer for ~ 15 years I do have some uncertainty.

This statement from Adobe's Winston Hendrickson does give me pause to consider my continuing use of LR.
"We expected a higher degree of this type of reaction from the hobbyist photographic community because currently there's not a lot of photography-specific value in our subscription products."
Maybe I don't get the intended meaning of this statement but for me it has a tinge of 'let them eat cake'. I've always thought of myself as an Adobe customer

He then goes on to outline the current pricing of LR and Elements as primary tools that hobbyists use. This is all fine but when I reflect on the investment I've made in PS and collateral books and video tutorials over the years I'm not so sanguine about my future use of any Adobe products. As a (now former) PS user the evolution of Adobe's business model on that front gives me pause to consider the future and my use of LR.

I will certainly modify/harden my LR workflow with the consideration that I may need to abandon LR in the future.
I will go back to a folder structure that is less abstract and less dependent on LR's excellent DAM aspects.
I will now output any files I want to keep as TIFF's.

I will investigate Aperture/Capture One in much greater detail.

I will limit my expenditures on LR collateral training books and video tutorials. I will limit my expenditures on LR plug-ins unless they also work with other tools.

I'm disappointed in the way Adobe has managed the move to the subscription only use of their tools. I'm skeptical that they have much consideration for me as a customer.
Caveat Emptor.
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BJL
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2013, 10:12:51 AM »
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Simon,

    though I agree with the complaints about price for people who are not "every day" users of PS, you seem to be looking at the $50/month price of a a bundle of multiple CC products, many of no relevance to photography. The subscription rate for PhotoShop alone is $240/year.

... for single-product users the price goes up markedly (50% for those that upgrade each time, over 500% for those that used to upgrade every 3 releases).
I do not see how upgrading every three releases gets the price down to $40/year, which is what it could have to be for $240/year to be a 500% increase.
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rasterdogs
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2013, 10:33:01 AM »
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Simon,

    though I agree with the complaints about price for people who are not "every day" users of PS, you seem to be looking at the $50/month price of a a bundle of multiple CC products, many of no relevance to photography. The subscription rate for PhotoShop alone is $240/year.
I do not see how upgrading every three releases gets the price down to $40/year, which is what it could have to be for $240/year to be a 500% increase.
I just finished a chat session with Adobe sales trying to get a clear/er understanding of the cost.  There was a certain level of ambiguity in that communication but as best as I was able to understand the pricing goes up to USD 50.00 per year after the first year 'introductory' pricing.

I didn't think it was possible but this is as convoluted as trying to understand the cost of my cell phone service. Shocked
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Isaac
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2013, 10:43:28 AM »
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As a mere hobbyist photographer and a 'loyal' Adobe customer for ~ 15 years I do have some uncertainty.

My guess is that you have been an Adobe customer because (for what you were willing to pay) you considered their products best suited your needs.

Once you inflate that into being a 'loyal' customer, you also inflate the move to other products into being a 'disloyal' customer ;-)


... but when I reflect on the investment I've made in PS and collateral books and video tutorials over the years I'm not so sanguine about my future use of any Adobe products.

Haven't you already had the return on that investment over the last 15 years?


I will go back to a folder structure that is less abstract and less dependent on LR's excellent DAM aspects.
I will now output any files I want to keep as TIFF's.

That's been working just fine for me.
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rasterdogs
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2013, 11:07:20 AM »
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My guess is that you have been an Adobe customer because (for what you were willing to pay) you considered their products best suited your needs.

Once you inflate that into being a 'loyal' customer, you also inflate the move to other products into being a 'disloyal' customer ;-)


Haven't you already had the return on that investment over the last 15 years?


That's been working just fine for me.

Ok I'm just a customer and I'm getting a clearer understanding of what the means to Adobe.

And no, the ROI that I've made in learning Adobe products is now a dead end for me.

Good to hear that it is working fine for you, congratulations. Hopefully that will continue well into the future.   Wink


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John Cothron
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2013, 11:08:08 AM »
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It's interesting to see the different views, but I still see the overall concept pretty simple.  I UNDERSTAND that Lr5 will not be subscription based, but like others I wonder about Lr6, or 7.  No, they aren't considering those right now, but it would seem from some of the comments I've seen here that at least conceptually a subscription based service is in the works..otherwise why make a reference to it?  Testing the waters?

Adobe got to where it is by being innovative, as well as providing its customer base those tools they both needed and ASKED for.  While I fully understand there are those that see the advantages, and want.. a subscription based service, it seems to me there are also a significant number of others that don't want that at all and in fact would choose to go elsewhere to avoid it.

Keep being innovative but also keep listening to your customer base.  The minute you do what "you think is right" and it differs from what your customers want.. the tide turns.  All companies are run by the numbers to some extent, but long term health will be generated when you support your customers.  Unless you are an accounting firm, accountants shouldn't be deciding what direction a product takes just based "on the numbers".  No offense to accountants at all, nor do I have any specific reason for thinking that's the influence taking place at Adobe... but it IS eerily similar to what I've seen take place at other corporations well outside of software and/or photography.
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BJL
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2013, 11:41:40 AM »
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There was a certain level of ambiguity in that communication but as best as I was able to understand the pricing goes up to USD 50.00 per year after the first year 'introductory' pricing.
No: as I tried to say already, that $50/month is what the price for the whole suite of multiple programs will be after an initial discount rate of $30/mo for current CS owners. The subscription price for PhotoShop only is set at $20/month, with no indication that this is a special introductory rate. It is the "Single application" price for "Full version of one desktop application" in the list at http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/buying-guide.edu.html
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Isaac
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2013, 12:25:59 PM »
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Good to hear that it is working fine for you, congratulations. Hopefully that will continue well into the future.

Hopefully someday there'll be standards for hierachical keywording and detected faces.
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rasterdogs
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2013, 12:26:58 AM »
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No: as I tried to say already, that $50/month is what the price for the whole suite of multiple programs will be after an initial discount rate of $30/mo for current CS owners. The subscription price for PhotoShop only is set at $20/month, with no indication that this is a special introductory rate. It is the "Single application" price for "Full version of one desktop application" in the list at http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/buying-guide.edu.html

So I gotta wonder why the sales person I chatted with kept directing me to the $30/month deal when I kept reiterating that I was only interested in PS.  I tell you it was just like visiting the Verizon store.  I'll pass, thanks.
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maxgruzen
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2013, 09:28:37 AM »
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I think part of anger at Adobe has to do with the general way in which the corporate world and the 2% keep sucking me dry. My buying power keeps being diminished; Sequester has hit me hard, and it is a struggle for me and most of the middle class to stay afloat. Verizon wants more, Direct TV wants more, gas is more, electricity is more, and now adobe whats to suck me dry so they can make a bigger profit. They have a right to set whatever price they want so I really have no claim here, but I will never lose the feeling that they have stabbed me in the back after so many years of being a client. If Adobe succeeds in this scam, every software maker will jump on the band wagon and go to a subsription service. It will soon cost me hundreds of dollars a month to run my computer. I kid you NOT. Everyone in the industry is watching this and it is time for those who lead to make their voices heard........Michael?
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Pogo33
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2013, 10:34:15 AM »
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FWIW, there's an updated FAQ on the Lightroom Journal blog:

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/

Q. Will there be a different version of Lightroom called Lightroom CC?

A. No.

I take the comments from Adobe Senior management seriously. I think in this climate one needs to and it seems to me that people are talking from both sides of their mouth. Earlier I quoted Mr. Hendrickson who said very specifically that Tom Hogan was showing "the potential of Lightroom CC." Mr. Hendrickson is the man, VP of Creative Solutions. Tom Hogan is a Manager. Everyone concedes that LR will be part of CC of which it will consist as part of the subscription offering. The real question, will there be differences? Here the double speak gets more complicated.

Mr. Hogan has assured us that there will be no differences in his blog post as quoted above. In the same interview at DPReview.com, Brian Hughes is quoted as saying that "We don't have plans to make Lightroom a subscription-only option but we do envision added functionality for CC members using Lightroom." Even Mr. Schewe implied the same thing above and Mr. Hogan, in his next post at his Lightroom Journal said when talking about ACR8 (which should also refer to LR5) "No new features or functionality will be available in ACR to Photoshop CS6 customers as part of those updates. (No Upright, advanced healing brush or radial filter, etc.)  I don’t have a timeline for how long this camera raw support will continue for Photoshop CS6 but I want to be consistent with our past policy of providing raw support for currently shipping products."

Historically, ACR has matched the Development module in LR. Will ACR8CC (the one with the Upright, advanced healing brush and radial filter) continue to be part of LR5 or will that only be a part of LRCC? How will important functionality like camera shake reduction be added to ACRCC without it being added LRCC? Will all of these updated features be added to LR5 or beyond? Again, Mr. Schewe and others seem to imply there will be subscription differences from the purchase products. The more that management and Adobe loyalists talk, the more the cloudy the picture gets confusing.

So let me say a final thing. What Adobe has done is just stunning. I have been in business and in retail for 40 years. Never have I seen a major organization actively alienage a significant segment of its customer base and from Mr. Hendrickson's words, he doesn't care; "there's not a lot of photography-specific value in our subscription products." Further, because we are views as having little value, the organization is relegating us to more mundane products like LR and Elements. I just wonder how many other individuals are out there like me who purchased the Creative Suites that will not do so now. It is an interesting world that Adobe has created and it will make a wonderful Business School study.

BTW; the sole issue is ownership. "I will not be involved in a software product where I don't have perpetual rights to what acquire. There are a "lot" of ways that Adobe could have handled this issue, with buy-out-rights, major update purchase options, etc. If Adobe wants to flat line their revenue stream, fine, but give us an opportunity to own what we pay for.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 10:39:04 AM by Pogo33 » Logged
Schewe
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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2013, 11:12:51 AM »
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Historically, ACR has matched the Development module in LR. Will ACR8CC (the one with the Upright, advanced healing brush and radial filter) continue to be part of LR5 or will that only be a part of LRCC? How will important functionality like camera shake reduction be added to ACRCC without it being added LRCC? Will all of these updated features be added to LR5 or beyond? Again, Mr. Schewe and others seem to imply there will be subscription differences from the purchase products. The more that management and Adobe loyalists talk, the more the cloudy the picture gets confusing.

Just to be perfectly clear, I don't speak on behalf of Adobe...everything I say is my own opinion and should not be confused with an official Adobe position.

Yes, stuff is confusing because, well, it's now Fri and the announcement was only on Mon. There is a lot of histrionic debate raging and it's really hard for people to parse the language of various statements by various people trying to make things more clear.

As it relates to LR5 and ACR 8 in CS6, it should be clear that:

LR5 is going to remain a perpetual license product while also part of the full CC package of apps.

LR5 will need ACR 8.x in order to rasterize an image into PS CS6 while maintaining the LR5 edits (unless you have LR5 do the rendering–which will always be an option as an export).

ACR 8.x will run in PS CS6–which is a bit of a new thing because in the past ACR was version specific. But, while ACR 8.x can process and render LR5 settings, you will not have the LR5 and ACR 8 functionality when hosted by CS6. For that you'll need PS CC.

Winston and other Adobe people have said there is no plan on making LR a CC only product (and I believe them) but that it's likely that CC members will get enhanced cloud options for sharing and integrating with the cloud. Does this mean a whole new set of processing features? I don't think so...if there is new CC integration, it might come as a CC type of LR plug-in much like the Facebook plug-in is now.

What I don't see happening is a different set of processing tools and adjustments that would make LR and CC versions different. The core set of modules and processing tools would be the same.

The above is what I think and know...but is not coming from Adobe. Eric Chan made a useful post in a different thread (it's really hard to keep all these threads straight) that you might read.
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