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Author Topic: Mamiya 4.5/300 mm Apo AF on P1 645DF+/P65+  (Read 4756 times)
esox
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« on: May 08, 2013, 05:01:14 PM »
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I know there are some discussions about this lense but they more oriented towards comparison between 2.8/300 and 4.5/300 Mamiya gears. My use is mainly lan,dscape photography, specially at sunset with the sun right in the middle of the lense. Stuff like that for instance :


(click to enlarge)

This one was taken with a Zeiss / Hassy Tessar 8/500mm with an adapter on my 645DF+/P65+ system.

The problem is that with this lense, the opening at f8 is sometimes a problem to have a sharp focus using the focus "green light" of the viewfinder. And also it only works on real aperture (fully manual) on the P1 body.

So my question is : how good is that 300/4.5 Mamiya lense with 60mpix DB and is the AF compatible with my 645DF+ body ? I will not do animal / nature images , or very rarely. I'm thinking about this one instead of the 5.6/500mm because it is much lighter for my back bones...

All experiences and advices are welcome.
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HarperPhotos
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 09:17:27 PM »
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Hi Esox,

I have a Mamiya 645 AF 300mm F4.5 lens and it yes a very sharp lens. When I have used it for landscape work I would always use mirror up to stop any chance of camera shake but saying that I have also used it hand held for shooting surfers and had great results.

This lens will auto focus on a Mamiya DF body

Also it is for sale on EBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221220098801?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Cheers

Simon

 
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Simon Harper
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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 09:49:16 PM »
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I know there are some discussions about this lense but they more oriented towards comparison between 2.8/300 and 4.5/300 Mamiya gears. My use is mainly lan,dscape photography, specially at sunset with the sun right in the middle of the lense. Stuff like that for instance :


(click to enlarge)

This one was taken with a Zeiss / Hassy Tessar 8/500mm with an adapter on my 645DF+/P65+ system.

The problem is that with this lense, the opening at f8 is sometimes a problem to have a sharp focus using the focus "green light" of the viewfinder. And also it only works on real aperture (fully manual) on the P1 body.

So my question is : how good is that 300/4.5 Mamiya lense with 60mpix DB and is the AF compatible with my 645DF+ body ? I will not do animal / nature images , or very rarely. I'm thinking about this one instead of the 5.6/500mm because it is much lighter for my back bones...

All experiences and advices are welcome.

Beautiful picture.
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 10:19:46 PM »
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I am steadily becoming more and more acquainted with the Mamiya 645 Telephoto options, I own the 300mm f/4.5 APO, 300mm f/2.8 APO, and the 500mm f/4.5 APO along with the 2x N TC, which I have reviewed and tested side by side on my website (currently excluding the 500mm): http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2012/08/21/mamiya-300mm-f2-8-apo-lens-review-with-sample-images-and-comparisons/

I am currently working on articles covering the 500mm f/4.5 APO as well as practical field use of the 300mm f/2.8 APO / 500mm APO / 2x TC from a recent trip I did in Costa Rica.

I am also working on an article to end all articles in which I compare the 300mm f/4.5 APO / 300mm f/2.8 APO / 500mm f/4.5 APO / 500mm f/8 Reflex / 500mm f5.6 / 300mm f/5.6 ULD N lenses which will give all telephoto lenses a comparison in one place, with some equally entertaining model (at least to me) as the last one, and of course these tests will be done on my IQ180 just like the last one was. So you can of course assume that flaws will be slightly less exaggerated with the slightly less demanding sensor.

The biggest issue for these lenses is stability, but when you are doing landscape it is significantly less of an issue with a proper procedure being used. A major source of vibration issues comes from using the lenses for "faster" paced wild life work etc..

Also as to focus confirmation it works up to f/8 on the 645DF into fairly dim lighting conditions, and it will confirm past f8 in exceptionally bright conditions, in extremely bright Costa Rica sunlight I had the 500mm f/4.5 APO with the 2x TC at f/11 (marked on the lens so I suppose f/22 in reality?) give me focus confirmation a few times. Theoretically since the AF system was improved on the 645DF+ this means the phaseconstrast (or whatever its called but either way its through the prism) which controls AF and focus confirmation was improved and this should equal some small benefits for a 645DF+ over my 645DF.

attached image is IQ180 on 645DF with Mamiya 500mm f/4.5 APO with the 2x M645 N TC on a Gitzo 3 series tripod with a Wimberly Gimbal Sidekick head taken (possibly with MLU) but certainly with a cable release.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 10:27:36 PM by Brian Hirschfeld » Logged

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esox
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 04:04:16 AM »
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Beautiful picture.

Thanks !

There is also a 6/500 APO Mamiya lense. Do you know something about that one ?
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 09:06:56 AM »
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The 500mm f/6 is a Mamiya RZ67/RB67 lens. It's possible to use these lenses via an adapter for the 645DF body. Stefan Steib's Hartblei makes one http://www.hartblei.de/en/rbrz645adapter.htm

Though I have no experience with this lens, I have to limit myself somewhere.

It does have a much better support system via a tripod bracket which balences the lens and supports it in two places.
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ondebanks
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 09:40:29 AM »
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The problem is that with this lense, the opening at f8 is sometimes a problem to have a sharp focus using the focus "green light" of the viewfinder. And also it only works on real aperture (fully manual) on the P1 body.


The AF/focus confirmation system is only specced to work up to f5.6. That's pretty standard for phase detection AF. Although as you and Brian have noted, it can sometimes work at f8 or smaller.

Even if you only went sideways from the adapted Hassy 500/8 to the M645 500/5.6, you would have an easier time focusing. And the weight is similar.

The 300/4.5 will autofocus and auto-aperture on your camera, but is 300mm focal length enough for your sunsets?
You might think that you could get 600mm by using the M645 2x N teleconverter on it, but as I've said elsewhere, there are issues with that.

Ray
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ondebanks
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 09:43:35 AM »
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I am currently working on articles covering the 500mm f/4.5 APO as well as practical field use of the 300mm f/2.8 APO / 500mm APO / 2x TC from a recent trip I did in Costa Rica.

I am also working on an article to end all articles in which I compare the 300mm f/4.5 APO / 300mm f/2.8 APO / 500mm f/4.5 APO / 500mm f/8 Reflex / 500mm f5.6 / 300mm f/5.6 ULD N lenses which will give all telephoto lenses a comparison in one place, with some equally entertaining model (at least to me) as the last one, and of course these tests will be done on my IQ180 just like the last one was. So you can of course assume that flaws will be slightly less exaggerated with the slightly less demanding sensor.

Looking forward to those articles, Brian - especially the 2nd one!

Ray
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 10:21:09 AM »
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Looking forward to those articles, Brian - especially the 2nd one!

Ray

Thanks, I have a lot to work on and hopefully will get them done in a few weeks.

I have not thought to try the 2x TC on the 300mm f/4.5 APO AF but I'm pretty sure the issues which you mention on GetDPI are the exact reasons why that thought has never occurred to me. Of course there is no electronic connection for any sort of communication, and just as importantly and sort of going hand in hand with that no way to control the electronic aperture.

Mamiya is certainly lacking in (modern) telephoto MFDB options at the moment and certainly don't seem to care which is understandable all things considered, but you would think they would at least bring out a 1.4 with AF to compete with Hasselblad.
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esox
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 03:37:17 PM »
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I'm afraid about doublers. I used one on my 24x36 film camera with a zuiko 300/4,5 the loss in quality was hudge. Not like that on mfdb?
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 03:56:11 PM »
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Of course adding any air glass surface will degrade image quality to some extent. Simply put its more stuff in between the lens and the sensor.

However, I would venture to say that there is no general rule as regards teleconverters as being universally crappy. Some certainly are. But of course the manufacture and the materials are both equally factors. From my experiences with the Mamiya 2x M645 N on my PhaseOne IQ180 with the 300/500 APO's it is an excellent performer. As you can see, at least from the 300mm f/2.8 APO on my website.

My comments are only for the 2x N. I am not fully aware of the differences between any older versions of the 2x TC's from Mamiya or any 3rd party TC's. I'm unclear as to whether some or all lenses were or were not reformulated between the C and N versions or if the differences are simply in the housing. It will also be interesting to compare the 150mm f/2.8+ 2x TC and the 300mm f/5.6 ULD N. both of these could be very good compact options. The 300 5.6 is comparably small and light. And if the 150 is just as good with the TC this could be an even more versatile solution.
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 03:10:30 AM »
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My comments are only for the 2x N. I am not fully aware of the differences between any older versions of the 2x TC's from Mamiya or any 3rd party TC's.

The first and only Mamiya 645 TC was the 2x N, from around 1990. There was no C version...which explains why there were several 3rd party branded 2x TCs (Vivitar, Kenko, etc.) - they emerged to fill that vacuum.

I'm unclear as to whether some or all lenses were or were not reformulated between the C and N versions or if the differences are simply in the housing.

Apart from the multicoating formula, the vast majority of lenses were optically unchanged going from C to N.

It will also be interesting to compare the 150mm f/2.8+ 2x TC and the 300mm f/5.6 ULD N. both of these could be very good compact options. The 300 5.6 is comparably small and light. And if the 150 is just as good with the TC this could be an even more versatile solution.

That should be a good pairing. I don't have it to hand right now, but I have some older Mamiya literature from which IIRC indicated that the 2x N was designed for the 300/2.8 - I think they were launched at the same time - and that the 150/2.8 was also well matched to it.

Ray
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esox
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 03:26:26 AM »
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And would it work properly with the 4.5/300 ? In fact I hace a Schneider K 3.5/150 LS, and having a 300mm would be a good thing because after 1450mm I only have A Tessar Hassy 8/500, and I'm often missing a lense between to extrems. I'm sure that a Mamiya 500 would me a betterchoice for very long telelense but it is not the same budget thant the d.5/300...

I've seen a 500mm Mamiya Sekor C 500mm f5.6, black, not white. Don you know something about this one ?
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ondebanks
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 09:40:07 AM »
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And would it work properly with the 4.5/300 ?

I suspect not...maybe Brian could confirm for certain, as he has the 300/4.5.

I've seen a 500mm Mamiya Sekor C 500mm f5.6, black, not white. Don you know something about this one ?

It's an older lens (originating in the late 1970s), never described as having any special APO or ULD glass. So expect chromatic aberration wide open. At f8 and smaller, it should perform the same as your Tele-Tessar.

It does seem to have some satisfied users...check the review on KEH - that's one happy bunny! Our own Michael Reichmann seemed to like it too; it's mentioned in one of his Phase One review articles.

Ray
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 10:07:17 AM »
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When I am home tonight, I will see if the TC fits on the 300mm f/4.5 APO AF. Again though there is absolutely no communication between the lens and the body if you insert the 2x N in-between them. The only possible way I could think of that aperture could possibly be controlled, with a goodly amount of work would be to have someone (SKGrimes?) make you an adapter similar to those used when adapter Nikon lenses to Canon Cameras, where there it allows you to manually move the aperture.

Yes, the 500mm f/5.6 lens is a totally different beast then the 500mm f/4.5 APO.

below, screencaps from one of my Youtube videos showing a (novoflex?) nikon lens-canon body adapter on my 14-24mm f/2.8 when being used with the Hartblei Hcam B1.
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« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 08:16:37 PM »
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I suspect not...maybe Brian could confirm for certain, as he has the 300/4.5.

The 300mm f/4.5 APO will not even mount into the 2x M645 N TC. There is no empirically obvious reason as to why this is the case but it is....
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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2013, 11:05:27 AM »
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I found a warrantied 4.5/300 apo at reasonable price and in vry good state. We'ill see. I choosed this one because it can be found at reasonable price, isn't too big and heavy for long walks. I already have a tessar 500 wich is not easy to focus and has some chromatic aberrations but I was missing something between 150 and 500.
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esox
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 10:28:11 AM »
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I recieved this morning the 4.5/300 AF APO Mam. I only did a few test from the window (broken rib, not easy to go aout for a walk with the bag on the back...). It needs a remote shutter cable in order to have sharp images. It is very light for such a lense wich is a pretty good news for my pack. I'm surprised by the fact there is no laght fall off on the corners, also good news. I didn't test it on my favorite landscape spot with the sun in front of the lense, but up to now those are good surprises. Very easy to do manual focus at full aperture, all automatism from the 645DF+ P1 body. Nice. It was done on a P65+ back.

I'm looking forward for a real shooting session in "real life". But for that price it is a really good value. (800 euros with 3 month warranty).

The AF is a bit slow...
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2013, 06:34:39 PM »
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You have to rethink the way you think about AF. You have to get within the ballpark and then as subjects move it is actually rather quick at keeping up with them as you refocus.
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 03:30:11 AM »
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Thanks for the answer, but I'm afraid mly english is too poor to fully undertand your last post ! Grin
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