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Author Topic: The answer to Adobe's and all our problems  (Read 4438 times)
Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« on: May 09, 2013, 08:54:46 AM »
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I know there is a lot of heat being generated about the commitment of Adobe to the Creative Cloud business model, as against the perpetual licensing business model etc, and I know that someone like myself who has spent £1,000's over the years on Adobe products, might now appear to be of little ongoing importance to them, because I no longer represent their core market, as I am not a corporate multi-license user, but just a one man business and pro user of their products - yes I know this is an odd way for them to treat their loyal customer base, but that is an argument for another ongoing thread I think.

So putting all the misquoted and misrepresented hyperbole aside and arguments about who is right and who is wrong etc., all Adobe need to do to keep me on board as an on-going loyal money paying customer, is to continue developing and selling ACR to me as a PS plug-in, that will retain support for PS CS6 and upwards. So instead of giving ACR away each time there is an update as has happened in the past, I can then simply buy it as an updated plug-in. That way I get to keep Photoshop as a stand-alone app and yet still have support for new camera models and their proprietary file formats when they are released, as well as any improvements of the RAW conversion and processing engine.

Surely this is not too much to ask?

This idea will probably get shot down in flames, but before you do, let's all be honest, PS has probably been developed about as far as it can reasonably be expected to go for photographers, yes I know tweaks can always be added, but to all intents and purposes the product is 'complete' and doesn't really need any further major developments, as far as photographers are concerned at least. So maybe this is a good time for us to be pushed off the merry-go-round in favour of allowing them to concentrate on the corporate and graphic arts user markets, but please Adobe, at least allow us to continue with ACR updates, even if we have to pay for them as plug-ins, which I think you will find, we will all be very happy to do.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 09:02:22 AM by Dave (Isle of Skye) » Logged

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madmanchan
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 09:02:59 AM »
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The first version of ACR was indeed provided as a separate plug-in purchase, but honestly I don't expect a return to that model.

What Adobe has committed to doing is continuing to provide ACR for CS6, as long as CS6 continues to be sold.  For example, Camera Raw 8 will soon be released for CC, but it will also run under CS6 and provide support for new camera models, bug fixes, etc.  If you already have CS6, this means getting a free update of Camera Raw.

(Of course, there is a separate long-term question of what happens if you were to update your OS to a new version under which CS6 no longer runs ...)
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Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 09:19:57 AM »
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The first version of ACR was indeed provided as a separate plug-in purchase, but honestly I don't expect a return to that model.

What Adobe has committed to doing is continuing to provide ACR for CS6, as long as CS6 continues to be sold.  For example, Camera Raw 8 will soon be released for CC, but it will also run under CS6 and provide support for new camera models, bug fixes, etc.  If you already have CS6, this means getting a free update of Camera Raw.

(Of course, there is a separate long-term question of what happens if you were to update your OS to a new version under which CS6 no longer runs ...)

Well I do see what you are saying, but I think 128 bit computing is still a way off, so CS6 should run for quite some time yet I think (hopefully).

But I suppose Adobe could release an OS update to resolve that situation when/if it arrives - but who knows what the future will hold, I am just trying to think of a way around this, that keeps as many people as possible, as happy as possible  Smiley

Dave
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 09:25:05 AM by Dave (Isle of Skye) » Logged

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RFPhotography
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 09:31:20 AM »
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So putting all the misquoted and misrepresented hyperbole aside and arguments about who is right and who is wrong etc., all Adobe need to do to keep me on board as an on-going loyal money paying customer, is to continue developing and selling ACR to me as a PS plug-in, that will retain support for PS CS6 and upwards. So instead of giving ACR away each time there is an update as has happened in the past, I can then simply buy it as an updated plug-in. That way I get to keep Photoshop as a stand-alone app and yet still have support for new camera models and their proprietary file formats when they are released, as well as any improvements of the RAW conversion and processing engine.

Dave


With Adobe's DNG Converter, you can convert your future RAW files to DNG and open those in an existing version of ACR.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 09:45:35 AM »
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Well I do see what you are saying, but I think 128 bit computing is still a way off, so CS6 should run for quite some time yet I think (hopefully).

I believe there's more to all this than just that. I can't recall how many times in recent years, either due to newer hardware, OS requirements or whatever, older versions of software can't run any longer. Didn't we just see this with LR and perhaps CS6 (new hardware or OS requirements)?

Apple for example could come out with OS11 and CS6 could be stopped dead in it's tracks. Do I upgrade my OS or not, just to use an old version of PS?

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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 09:46:09 AM »
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With Adobe's DNG Converter, you can convert your future RAW files to DNG and open those in an existing version of ACR.

OR save a flattened TIFF from an old version of Photoshop (CS6). How does this mitigate the CC issues?
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 10:02:44 AM »
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OR save a flattened TIFF from an old version of Photoshop (CS6). How does this mitigate the CC issues?

That doesn't help for RAW files from newer cameras that are introduced post ACR8 (assuming that's the last version that will be updated for CS6).

As far as mitigating the CC issues that Dave is concerned about, it seems to do that pretty well.  That assumes, of course, that Adobe continues to make its DNG Converter freely available and updates it for new cameras as ACR is updated.  Dave is concerned about being able to work with RAW files from new cameras in the future and not being able to do so in the last version of ACR that was updated for CS6.  It seems that, with the noted caveats, the DNG Converter should allow him to retain CS6 and still work with RAW files from newer cameras.  Am I missing something?
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Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 10:25:05 AM »
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If Adobe have made their choice for the path forward as they see it, then there is little we can do about it, all this moaning (and I do include myself in this) is just a waste of energy. We might not like what they are doing, but we are stuck with it, so all we can hope to do is either jump on board, or find some way that we can at least cling on to what we have got, for as long as possible. That is all I am suggesting and forlornly hope that Adobe is listening.

Yes it does smack of desperation doesn't it?

Dave
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plugsnpixels
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 02:12:40 PM »
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I can't recall how many times in recent years, either due to newer hardware, OS requirements or whatever, older versions of software can't run any longer. Didn't we just see this with LR and perhaps CS6 (new hardware or OS requirements)? Apple for example could come out with OS11 and CS6 could be stopped dead in it's tracks. Do I upgrade my OS or not, just to use an old version of PS?

I've got a copy of Snow Leopard Server set up inside Mountain Lion as a VM to address this problem with a couple of other legacy apps, but have managed to move on anyway.

This current situation is a boon for other developers to step in and step it up.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 06:27:12 PM »
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That doesn't help for RAW files from newer cameras that are introduced post ACR8 (assuming that's the last version that will be updated for CS6).

As far as mitigating the CC issues that Dave is concerned about, it seems to do that pretty well.  That assumes, of course, that Adobe continues to make its DNG Converter freely available and updates it for new cameras as ACR is updated.  Dave is concerned about being able to work with RAW files from new cameras in the future and not being able to do so in the last version of ACR that was updated for CS6.  It seems that, with the noted caveats, the DNG Converter should allow him to retain CS6 and still work with RAW files from newer cameras.  Am I missing something?

Yes Bob that is indeed possible, but the DNG converter is a batch conversion utility, and I am assuming that as I use Bridge to pre-select the files and only the files I wish to convert and then process, that the ACR updates will still allow Bridge in CS6 to continue working well into the future with newer camera models as they come out. The DNG converter (I believe, as I have it but have never had a need to use it - yet) would mean that I have to batch convert ALL my files as 16 bit Tiffs, before I even get a chance to see them, which would be a long and tortuous process and require even more HDD space - although I suppose I can always use the crappy S/W that comes with a new camera to view and convert files.

I can already see, where some smart software developer, will come out with a simple stand alone RAW viewer and converter, that will then launch your chosen files straight into PS and make themselves a fortune.

And good luck to them I say  Smiley

Dave
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Philip Weber
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 09:07:50 PM »
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Hi Eric - In regards to your comment below (bold emphasis mine):

"What Adobe has committed to doing is continuing to provide ACR for CS6, as long as CS6 continues to be sold. "

This doesn't ease my concerns. When it's discontinued in 12-24 months, what then? As long as LR stays the way it is, I'm ok but if it all goes CC and PS6 is canned, what then, many of us wonder.

Eric, as a "little guy" (avid amateur photographer, who loyally purchased each new upgrade) I'd really be ok with the CC idea if ONE component changed.

Why can't folks like us commit to a 1-2 year CC subscription with the understanding that, at the end of the 1 or 2 year commitment, whatever we've "rented" we keep?

Knowing that would make all the difference to me and many who might worry about their income changing, Adobe prices going up, lack of use/need, etc. If that could happen, I'd sign up ASAP. Without it, I don't think it makes sense (for me) to rent an app knowing there's no way out and, possibly, nothing to return to after a few years.

I'm not asking Adobe to change their decision...just amend it to make this possible and I'd bet most of the angst would evaporate.

Thanks for considering this suggestion and for all you do (and people like Jeff Schewe do, who's seemingly at war over this with 1/2 the forum!) for the photographic community.

Phil Weber
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 06:19:31 AM »
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Those are already out there, Dave.  Raw Therapee is one that is highly regarded.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 06:31:41 AM »
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Raw Therapee is one that is highly regarded.

+1

Cheers,
Bart
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madmanchan
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 09:47:59 AM »
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The issue with the OS versions is that newer OS versions tend to "deprecate" old APIs. This is tech talk for saying that existing programs that were developed on older OS versions may not work on the new OS versions (either they won't run, or they'll run but some piece of functionality stops working).  An example of this would be printer drivers that were designed for Leopard -- they had to be updated for Snow Leopard due to color changes in the operating system.  Continuing to use the older print drivers would work, but would produce incorrect colors.

CS6 should work fine on the current OS versions and the ones after that (e.g., 10.9 on the Mac when it's released), but beyond that I have no idea.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 10:29:32 AM »
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The issue with the OS versions is that newer OS versions tend to "deprecate" old APIs. This is tech talk for saying that existing programs that were developed on older OS versions may not work on the new OS versions (either they won't run, or they'll run but some piece of functionality stops working).  An example of this would be printer drivers that were designed for Leopard -- they had to be updated for Snow Leopard due to color changes in the operating system.  Continuing to use the older print drivers would work, but would produce incorrect colors.

CS6 should work fine on the current OS versions and the ones after that (e.g., 10.9 on the Mac when it's released), but beyond that I have no idea.
Of course one can always move to Windows which seems to be more concerned about backward compatibility than does Apple.  I guess I better continue to stock parts for my newly build computer!
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RFPhotography
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 10:46:48 AM »
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Of course one can always move to Windows which seems to be more concerned about backward compatibility than does Apple.  I guess I better continue to stock parts for my newly build computer!

Apple people will tell you that's why Windows is so bloated and cumbersome.   Grin 
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 12:42:40 PM »
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Apple people will tell you that's why Windows is so bloated and cumbersome.   Grin 
I know but I can build a computer that runs everything that I need it to for only 1/2 the cost of retail and I'm not locked into the AppleOS craziness!
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RFPhotography
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 12:46:22 PM »
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I know but I can build a computer that runs everything that I need it to for only 1/2 the cost of retail and I'm not locked into the AppleOS craziness!

No argument here.  I'm a Windows user.  Built a new machine last summer. 
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Sal Baker
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 12:53:20 PM »
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I prefer Macs.  I don't want to be locked into Windows only.

Sal
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Isaac
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 01:25:54 PM »
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You prefer being locked into Macs only, rather than being locked into Windows only :-)
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