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Author Topic: What happens when?  (Read 5429 times)
matt4626
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« on: May 09, 2013, 05:21:29 PM »
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Imagine we are two, four, six years down the CC road and someone comes up with something far better than Photoshop (down fanboys down). As far as I can tell we would end up paying for the "new" software, cause it's the latest and best...but still paying Adobe for software we don't use just to have access to our files...
Am I missing something? Huh
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stevesanacore
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 06:17:12 PM »
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Why do I need adobe to have access to my files? My files will always reside on my drives or DVD's BluRay etc. in Nikon, Canon and Phase One formats. Nothing to do with Adobe...
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Isaac
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 07:44:56 PM »
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Am I missing something? Huh

Why would you only have been using an Adobe proprietary file format, when you could additionally archive your work as TIFF?
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DeanChriss
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 10:12:24 AM »
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Flattening "final" results and saving them as a TIFF file is undoubtedly a good practice. But if, for instance, you need access to the adjustment layers for later tweaking it's more problematic. Yes, you buy into Adobe's technology when you save PSD files, just like you buy into Canon, Nikon, or other brand technology when you buy one of their cameras. I can only imagine the howling if Canon or Nikon could, and did, suddenly demand a subscription to access all of the RAW files everyone has ever made with their cameras. You could of course convert all of your RAW files to TIFF and lose a lot of flexibility, just like you can convert all of your PSDs to TIFFs. I do think it's a bit ironic that the creator of DNG, which was supposed to save our proprietary RAW files from obsolescence, is now demanding continuous payments to maintain access to their own proprietary formats.
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Isaac
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 12:01:37 PM »
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I can only imagine the howling if Canon or Nikon could, and did, suddenly demand a subscription to access all of the RAW files everyone has ever made with their cameras.

Once more, Adobe has not suddenly demanded a subscription to access all of any-kind-of files everyone has ever made with PS.

You can still use that old PS you previously used to create those files.


... demanding continuous payments to maintain access to their own proprietary formats.

Once more, Adobe is not demanding continuous payments to maintain access to their own proprietary formats.

You can still use that old PS you previously used to create those proprietary formats.


As for the new PS CC subscriptions, what do you think is the difference between what you describe as "maintain access"/"access to the adjustment layers for later tweaking" and actually using PS ?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:17:41 PM by Isaac » Logged
DeanChriss
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 01:46:02 PM »
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You can still use that old PS you previously used to create those files.

You can, until that old PS becomes incompatible with your operating system and/or hardware. At that point only a subscription will give you access to your files, and you'll have access only as long as you pay.

You can still use that old PS you previously used to create those proprietary formats.

Again, that's true until that old PS becomes incompatible with your operating system and/or hardware.

As for the new PS CC subscriptions, what do you think is the difference between what you describe as "maintain access"/"access to the adjustment layers for later tweaking" and actually using PS ?

The point is that once CS6 becomes incompatible with your OS and/or hardware, continuous payment of a subscription is the only way to access or use any of your proprietary Adobe files. Previously one could update or purchase only when necessary to maintain compatibility with computer operating systems and hardware. Under the new plan when your subscription runs out your files become useless until you renew.

[edit] I'd think "access" means opening, viewing , printing, and anything that doesn't modify a file and "use" would mean things like "tweaking", adjusting, or anything that modifies a file. I'll admit it's a minor distinction and "access" might be provided by some 3rd party applications. Semantics aside, the problem is that you must subscribe if your files are to remain useful in any meaningful way after CS6 becomes incompatible with your OS and/or hardware. That could take one year or five years, but it will definitely happen.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:10:39 PM by DeanChriss » Logged

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Steve House
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 02:40:02 PM »
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The point is that once CS6 becomes incompatible with your OS and/or hardware, continuous payment of a subscription is the only way to access or use any of your proprietary Adobe files. Previously one could update or purchase only when necessary to maintain compatibility with computer operating systems and hardware. Under the new plan when your subscription runs out your files become useless until you renew.

[edit] I'd think "access" means opening, viewing , printing, and anything that doesn't modify a file and "use" would mean things like "tweaking", adjusting, or anything that modifies a file. I'll admit it's a minor distinction and "access" might be provided by some 3rd party applications. Semantics aside, the problem is that you must subscribe if your files are to remain useful in any meaningful way after CS6 becomes incompatible with your OS and/or hardware. That could take one year or five years, but it will definitely happen.

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?  Maybe it's just me but I've found advances in application software such as PS where a new release drives an upgrade to the OS to be the norm instead of the reverse where adoption of a new OS drives upgrading old application software.  I typically go through multiple application upgrade cycles for each single OS upgrade cycle.  In my own case the fact that Lightroom 4 required Windows 7 or later was the final push to replace Windows XP with 7.  It would be very rare for me to upgrade to a new OS unless there were new applications or application features that required it.  It would be very unlikely that current CS5 or 6 (or older versions, for that matter) would refuse to run under any future releases of Windows (can't comment on Mac) as support for legacy apps has traditionally been a MS priority.  Much more of a concern is whether you'd be able to reinstall it after a hardware or OS upgrade due to the required activations - if Adobe turns off the activation servers for older versions, users trying a fresh install would be out in the cold. In any case, the PSD file format is so widely used that finding support for it in third party applications in the event you jump the Adobe ship is not likely to be a problem.
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Isaac
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 03:02:33 PM »
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The point is that once CS6 becomes incompatible with your OS and/or hardware...

That seems back to front, I expect you mean - once you move to a new OS and/or hardware that isn't compatible with the old OS and/or hardware interfaces used by old CS6.


Under the new plan when your subscription runs out your files become useless until you renew.

Yes, without working PS software "your" proprietary Adobe files should be regarded as useless; and more generally "your" proprietary Adobe files should be regarded only as short term assets.

That was always the case; as we would have discovered if Adobe stopped selling PS, or Adobe went out of business, or...

Why would you only have been using an Adobe proprietary file format, when you could additionally archive your work as TIFF?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 03:49:36 PM by Isaac » Logged
DeanChriss
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 04:23:59 PM »
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Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?  Maybe it's just me but I've found advances in application software such as PS where a new release drives an upgrade to the OS to be the norm instead of the reverse where adoption of a new OS drives upgrading old application software.  I typically go through multiple application upgrade cycles for each single OS upgrade cycle.  In my own case the fact that Lightroom 4 required Windows 7 or later was the final push to replace Windows XP with 7.  It would be very rare for me to upgrade to a new OS unless there were new applications or application features that required it.  It would be very unlikely that current CS5 or 6 (or older versions, for that matter) would refuse to run under any future releases of Windows (can't comment on Mac) as support for legacy apps has traditionally been a MS priority.  Much more of a concern is whether you'd be able to reinstall it after a hardware or OS upgrade due to the required activations - if Adobe turns off the activation servers for older versions, users trying a fresh install would be out in the cold. In any case, the PSD file format is so widely used that finding support for it in third party applications in the event you jump the Adobe ship is not likely to be a problem.

It's not just you. I also went through a few versions of PS on my last OS, and indeed that's probably normal. I can also afford the subscription even though it's significantly more expensive than the regular upgrades if we're talking about Photoshop alone. What's distasteful is that Adobe is using the PS files people have previously accumulated to push them into a subscription model that they may not want, and did not previously buy into. Previously, if you didn't think the latest version of PS was worthwhile in terms of features you didn't have to purchase it, and you could continue using your PS files, at least for a while (years).  Under the new subscription model you must purchase the newest version (subscribe), or the files you created with the old version become useless. There's no evaluating whether or not you want the new features, you buy them regardless or lose use of your files in short order (like at the end of the month). Adobe is minimizing customer choice to maximize profit, and they're spending customer loyalty, at least for some customers, to do it.

Of course no one has to like what Adobe is doing, including those like me who love their products. If ethics, loyalty, or "being nice" were legal requirements we wouldn't have arsenic in chicken feed to make the meat look better, or Adobe's subscription-only software rental program.

As far as finding support for Adobe files in third party applications, given what's happened I suspect more options will become available as time goes on. At the moment the options for RAW file conversion are reasonable. When it comes to support for PSD files it depends what you mean by "support". In my admittedly brief search it's currently iffy at best.
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DeanChriss
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 04:36:18 PM »
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Yes, without working PS software "your" proprietary Adobe files should be regarded as useless; and more generally "your" proprietary Adobe files should be regarded only as short term assets.

That was always the case; as we would have discovered if Adobe stopped selling PS, or Adobe went out of business, or...

Why would you only have been using an Adobe proprietary file format, when you could additionally archive your work as TIFF?

Everything, or nearly so, that I print is a TIFF. But if you can cheerfully lose tens of thousands of hours creating masks, adjustment layers, and whatnot you're a far better person than I.

Whether we abandon Adobe, or subscribe, or Adobe goes out of business, or even if we lose all those hours and all of our proprietary Adobe files, in the end we'll all survive. That doesn't mean we have to like what's going on.
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iluvmycam
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 04:44:09 PM »
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I don't care. I'm still with LR 3. I'm just basic.
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Isaac
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 04:56:12 PM »
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That doesn't mean we have to like what's going on.

I don't like what's going on -- simply because it's an unexpected change and I have to think how it might effect what I do :-)
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JohnAONeill
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 07:22:56 PM »
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Well after 20 years of using Photoshop I will now (for the first time) start looking at alternatives to adobe products. Frankly I am completely fed up with this companies rip off policies (see pricing differences between Europe and the USA). When I last called them to complain about these differences I was told it cost more to produce the software in different language zones. Of course I told them that we all speak English here in Ireland and that I really don't mind adjusting my "color" settings as opposed to my "colour" settings but alas my powers of persuasion (and a few hundred thousand others) could not make them see reason. The bottom line here is that Adobe is a power hungry, greedy corporation with no sense of loyalty to the very people who made them the wealthy company they are. Looking at the prices they are (starting) to charge for these services they are clearly out of touch with the vast majority of their users. For every busy working photographer generating good turnover that can easily afford to pay these prices there are hundreds more who find it difficult enough to make ends meet under difficult economic circumstances. There software was already way overpriced but for many could be justified by the fact that upgrades could be skipped for a few versions or when they really needed the added features. This new pricing model is anti competitive, anti consumer, and downright arrogant! I was just about to upgrade to CS6 but I think My money might be better invested in alternative solutions.
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benchdog
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 08:43:02 PM »
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My 2 cents for what it is worth. The way I see it we all most likely have a hand in the way Adobe is moving. We all want Adobe to continue to develop and make the best products in the market. We want them to be innovative in their approach. We want them to be affordable. But we all dislike change that challenges the norm and for sure we all like to voice our opinions. Like it, love it, or leave it Adobe's made their choice we get to make ours so lets get back to what we do. Make great art.
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BradTrent
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2013, 11:25:01 PM »
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Why do we 'need' Adobe? Because if you're like me (but I kinda think you're not) and you save all of your retouched selects as layered TIFF files that typically can hit GIGABYTE without too much trouble, you're gonna need Photoshop to open those files. Only Photoshop.

If you're interested in hearing my thoughts on Adobe's ill-conceived decision to move to a subscription only scheme, head on over to Damn Ugly Photography, pull up a chair, get comfortable & open a big bag of popcorn, and try not to open a vein once it all sinks in...

http://wp.me/przPb-1Vp
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DennisWilliams
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 05:33:41 PM »
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Perhaps it is the difference between the needs of all the  artists  and a straightforward working man but none of this affects me.  I do a job, i finish and I deliver. How I can manipulate old files years  from now is simply a non issue. Just one more reason why skipping a decade +  of camera purchases and endless software and hardware upgrades  and sticking with my 67 film originals and (continuously improving) scanner technology has proven the best decision I've ever made, both financially  (for obvious reasons) and professionally. My CS6 will conceivably last till I retire.  It would take another major Apple architecture shift - without a Rosetta style workaround - to make it obsolete- and even that would apply only if I had to buy all new computers.
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rogan
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2013, 02:48:51 PM »
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I know this goes against the grain but there are a lot of ways of dealing with this(just so much easier to hate adobe than look at the fact there are a lot of positives to this.)
1 Tif is a standard format. If you have selected ""Maximize Compatibility" in preferences any software that opens tifs can open it. You may not get your layers but you will have your images with all your retouching on it.
2 You got import them all into lightroom and export them in any format you want.
3 Any program that comes along to seriously compete will make opening a layered tif a priority. It may not be able to adjust them but the files will be openable and changable.

I promise you if you think about this, for a lot of people here, the CC is a godsend(not everyone)
Change messes with your head but it's not always bad
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 03:34:32 PM by rogan » Logged
DeanChriss
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2013, 05:34:36 PM »
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I know this goes against the grain but there are a lot of ways of dealing with this(just so much easier to hate adobe than look at the fact there are a lot of positives to this.)
1 Tif is a standard format. If you have selected ""Maximize Compatibility" in preferences any software that opens tifs can open it. You may not get your layers but you will have your images with all your retouching on it.
2 You got import them all into lightroom and export them in any format you want.
3 Any program that comes along to seriously compete will make opening a layered tif a priority. It may not be able to adjust them but the files will be openable and changable.

I promise you if you think about this, for a lot of people here, the CC is a godsend(not everyone)
Change messes with your head but it's not always bad


I'd argue that if you can't adjust the layers, masks, etc., then you may as well start over completely. Not doing so means applying adjustments on top of previous adjustments and in many circumstances that guarantees less than optimal results.

Upgrading Photoshop used to cost around $200 on about an 18 month cycle. That's a little over $11/month. If you decided not to upgrade it'd keep on working for as long as you had a computer that would support it, giving you access to all of your files, layers, masks, etc. In the cloud model you pay $20/month (after the introductory first year's rate) and the software stops working as soon as you stop paying. Getting the same tools for less time for 80% more money is certainly a godsend for Adobe, but I don't see how it benefits anyone else. It remains a godsend for Adobe only as long as no serious competition fills the void they're leaving and not too many customers abandon them. Personally, if I abandon Photoshop and ACR (and I'm not yet sure about that) there's no way I'd ever adopt Lightroom. There are just too many good competitors in that realm.

I'm very curious why you say that CC is as to how CC can possibly be a godsend for small customers. I don't say that to be argumentative, but if there's something I'm overlooking I'd really like to know. I've been through many good and bad changes in my life so far, so I realize that "Change messes with your head but it's not always bad". Still I don't see any real benefit no matter how hard I look.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 06:12:17 PM by DeanChriss » Logged

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rogan
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2013, 08:37:19 PM »
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Sorry it doesn't work for you.
Ran the numbers here and the +'s outweigh the -"s for my studio. May not work for others
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 08:59:48 PM by rogan » Logged
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