Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 12 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Worldwide medium format market  (Read 26931 times)
gerald.d
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #140 on: May 19, 2013, 11:04:25 AM »
ReplyReply

Well not exactly you can walk away from people that make insulting comments as you have done and stupid debates that just feed negativity. I'm not into being negative about this industry but here to support it as a consumer.
I've been insulting? Where?

You've got the support thing all upside down by the way. The industry - and those associated with it - should be supporting their customers, not expecting the customers to support them.

Just for balance, I should point out that I have just received my IQ180 back from Copenhagen via my local dealer. I bought my back off Ebay. For around $7.5K less than any dealer would sell me one at the time.

It was covered under the +1 year warranty that the previous owner had purchased. A warranty that transferred to me.

Having said that, how about a little less of the FUD sowing regarding buying backs from sources other than dealers? Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 11:07:36 AM by gerald.d » Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4260



« Reply #141 on: May 19, 2013, 11:19:21 AM »
ReplyReply

Guy,

 I'm really sorry to hear about your wife.

 Re. the debate about dealers, it seems there are a some effective and honest people eg. Steve and Doug, who provide really useful backoffice services for pros, and they are known here by word of mouth, and then there are some unpleasant characters who live of their entitlement to geographical areas, and who sometimes make use of good business skills or good connections to land institutional contracts with museums etc. Last, not least there are places like B&H who sell MF eg. Hasselblad with competence, just like they sell Nikon and Canon with competence, but without providing any specific services at all. But all of the above get the same margins, and I don't see why they should.

Edmund


Going back to this . I never said this was a verifiable number either for all I know it could be more marketing spin. If I could verify that would be nice but without getting real numbers from each company which is next to impossible and you know that than in many ways its a best guess answer. I really dislike your tone here as its pretty insulting which I do not deserve either since when do I spill lies and deceit in these forums. I'm a working Pro father of 2 a husband run 2 businesses and have a wife with breast, lung and brain cancer in the last 3 years do you really think I give a shit about these stupid debates and worse having to read a bunch of BS from trolls. Do you really think I care. I do not but I do care deeply about this industry that has supported my art for the last 35 years plus and I will support it the best way I can because I do care what is written in these forums and the deceit runs wild. I would spend half my life trying to correct this crap. I don't have the time for stupid debates and was this not all marketing spin from Leica to start this thread to begin with. Go verify Leicas numbers for us if it matters to you.

BTW Steve is a dear friend and he is a very knowledgable guy and on top of that one of the best around and this has zero to do with what he says. Want to make that perfectly clear.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 11:22:07 AM by eronald » Logged
Guy Mancuso
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1123


WWW
« Reply #142 on: May 19, 2013, 11:26:48 AM »
ReplyReply

I've been insulting? Where?

You've got the support thing all upside down by the way. The industry - and those associated with it - should be supporting their customers, not expecting the customers to support them.

Just for balance, I should point out that I have just received my IQ180 back from Copenhagen via my local dealer. I bought my back off Ebay. For around $7.5K less than any dealer would sell me one at the time.

It was covered under the +1 year warranty that the previous owner had purchased. A warranty that transferred to me.

Having said that, how about a little less of the FUD sowing regarding buying backs from sources other than dealers? Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.

I did say I don't care where people buy there stuff your money not mine but I also said I support the dealer network . It's been good for me both in purchasing and support even on a Friday evening late in Miami I got support to help fix a body issue. To me that kind of support deserves my support is when these guys come to the plate and bat for you. I won't back off those comments about dealers because I believe in what they do regardless of price. When you neck is on the line sometimes the money is very secondary. Now we are also talking about a different country here which may have a lot to do with huge price differences as well. That maybe the case and I can only speak for here in the US. Buying from friends and forum members I never said was a bad way to go since most of the time a warranty is involved and a certain level of comfort with these folks is a good thing. Nothing wrong with that and for a lot of hobbyists it certainly is a nice option but on a loaner level support level for a working Pro having these things readily available to you maybe just more important. Depends on needs and also your comfort level. A back for instance being built like a tank is maybe pretty safe a body on the other hand is less safe buying used. We all know bodies will go down easier and faster since many parts both electrical and mechanical are involved. Seriously I know money is very important to all of us both as Pros and non Pros but in some ways its a secondary issue as well. These things are expensive and I know we all look to save. Myself I'm more comfortable with a dealer. My Nikon for instance I know I'm largely on my own for service and support and that maybe fine for a 3k camera. But for me with big money on the line my comfort level is having a dealer. That's my comfort level may not be yours or anyone else's .
Logged

Guy Mancuso
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1123


WWW
« Reply #143 on: May 19, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »
ReplyReply

Guy,

 I'm really sorry to hear about your wife.

 Re. the debate about dealers, it seems there are a some effective and honest people eg. Steve and Doug, who provide really useful backoffice services for pros, and they are known here by word of mouth, and then there are some unpleasant characters who live of their entitlement to geographical areas, and who sometimes make use of good business skills or good connections to land institutional contracts with museums etc. Last, not least there are places like B&H who sell MF eg. Hasselblad with competence, just like they sell Nikon and Canon with competence, but without providing any specific services at all. But all of the above get the same margins, and I don't see why they should.

Edmund



 I know Edmund there are some real dip wits in the dealer business as well and it is unfortunate no question when this level of investment is on the line. We as buyers have to weigh those factors. Totally understand you comment. We all can't have dealers in our part of the world that match some of the folks here. Sometimes I forget that as well.

Thanks she is doing well and we are riding on all clear on all fronts right now. Hope it stays like this. It's been hell.


Speaking of margins its pretty sad, retailers and dealers get only 3 percent on Nikon products. So a 3 k product only nets you a 100 dollars. It's amazing how the brick and mortar places even survive. Maybe some good news for them is sales tax on Internet purchases will bring us back to our local shops. I still support my local store here in Arizona but they will certainly get all my Nikon business if this becomes the case. I'm not sure where that law is at right now but it will be interesting.

If there is a good debate topic this certainly is one for sure.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 11:36:49 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 435


WWW
« Reply #144 on: May 19, 2013, 01:18:10 PM »
ReplyReply

I don't have the time for stupid debates and was this not all marketing spin from Leica to start this thread to begin with

why should consumers loyally support oem's if the figures they feed us are bs?

Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #145 on: May 19, 2013, 01:38:23 PM »
ReplyReply

You seem to grab everything out of context but of course that is what trolls do . There are many reasons and your fully aware of them but again you pick and select what makes you look the best and not always with facts. Neither the Leica nor Pentax has a efficient tethering program on release of there cams for instance. Pentax you could not even buy outside of Japan and still maybe has two new lenses built for this cam. Leica had one or two lenses on release and finally after 3 or 4 years has about 7. These are just a few examples like a backup body that make buy decisions. Of course we all many decisions are made into buying any system and as always there is no single perfect system not even your Nikon which I BTW I shoot also. Does Pentax offer you a free loaner system next day , no they do not. Leica does offer that as well as Phase. I believe Hassy does as well . Put simply IMHO Pentax offers the least available options,products, service and dealer support for the working Pro. Leica is doing much better on that but again it has taken time to get there. I just recommended to a good friend to get the Pentax but it is his hobby and he wants to get into MF which is great . The Pentax will serve him well and as time has marched of a lot of Pros have jumped onboard the Pentax system. With that now they can buy it here in the states and have some support. I like the Pentax a  lot and I came within inches of buying the Leica S but not until today would feel comfortable about putting all my eggs in one basket with them. But it does seem like they are doing well and that's great. I'm looking forward to what Pentax does next but its been pretty quiet from them too. Lowering prices does give some clues as too maybe something soon. I hope so

See Fred its about the format not the brand that counts here. I own the Nikon very nice  system with very good image quality but its not the end all and its not MF which I personally have done a lot of testing on them not steal tests from others and post about it that your not even sure what they did. I owned 5 backs and have posted many tests on them.

See we ALL know you have a bone to pick with Phase and I understand a bit of that but you refuse to take blame on yourself. You buy off eBay you avoid all dealers than crucify them daily for no good reason except to be that itch in people's jocks. You blame Phase for the issues you may have had or not meeting your expectations. You than say in a post here to buy direct from the OEMS but you crucify them daily.

I'm sure you will come back with some more tests more quotes and more bullshit to make yourself look good. We are expecting it trust me. You never fail to deliver a post that makes Fred look wise.


Btw posted here many times from our dealer friends the amount of backs that have truly failed on there own without some user doing something to it is very low. You even admit in some posts here that these backs are like tanks . I owned 5 of them and outside a delivery issue with a new one never had a problem and I had a loaner the next morning by my dealer and replacement back within a week. My IQ 160 to be exact. Avoiding buying from dealers IMHO is a bad investment. Even used there is a grace period. Not that I care where people buy from its there money but I always recommend a dealer as mine has always been there for me and yes Steve's company he works for is my dealer and they always have been there for me. So I'm very dealer friendly as it is your best support you can get.

I made a point regarding one of your points. Rather than respond to the actual numbers and the cost of a complete backup (Pentax) vs a partial backup (Phase One) you choose to make a personal attack, not to mention accuse Gerald of insulting you that all of us can see was not the case.

You also might want to be a bit careful about publicly accusing someone of stealing.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 02:02:07 PM by FredBGG » Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4260



« Reply #146 on: May 19, 2013, 01:42:29 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks she is doing well and we are riding on all clear on all fronts right now. Hope it stays like this. It's been hell.


Speaking of margins its pretty sad, retailers and dealers get only 3 percent on Nikon products. So a 3 k product only nets you a 100 dollars. It's amazing how the brick and mortar places even survive. Maybe some good news for them is sales tax on Internet purchases will bring us back to our local shops. I still support my local store here in Arizona but they will certainly get all my Nikon business if this becomes the case. I'm not sure where that law is at right now but it will be interesting.

If there is a good debate topic this certainly is one for sure.

I like hearing the good news too Smiley

If we don't have dealers, we should insist on manufacturer support ...


Edmund
Logged
Steve Hendrix
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1156


WWW
« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2013, 11:05:28 AM »
ReplyReply

Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?




My estimates are always about new product sales, in units sold, not also including 2nd hand, etc. Keep in mind when I offer a number, I am not stating it as a fact (nor have I ever). It is an educated guess on my part, based on my past employment with the following companies:

Imacon
SinarBron Imaging
PPR
Phase One
Capture Integration
14 years experience selling digital backs from Sinar/Jenoptik/Leaf/Mamiya/Imacon/Hasselblad/Phase One

I've been in corporate meetings with my employees discussing numbers, I've been in dealer/partner meetings with manufacturers discussing numbers, as one of the largest (and widest reaching) focused dealers for these products worldwide, I also have a decent sense of how things are out there in the marketplace.

All this only contributes to my estimation of the market and the performance of the market.

I will add I've never felt glad after the fact about providing this information, for the way my experience gets twisted to suit someone's agenda or mis-represented perspective.

When you talk about "respect", that seems to imply that there is disrespect tendered in the way that marketshare, sales numbers, etc, is provided. I don't see how that can be the case. I do not factually know the numbers. I can offer an educated guesstimate, I have offered educated guesstimates, and it's either like members don't believe me or they just pretend to not hear me. I don't have a lot of control over that.

I'm also going to say that the only reason that I even offer up any guess's is because some like to stir the pot of doom, and then see the masses run in fear. I think some actually take glee out of it. Does medium format digital have a future is a legitimate question. Just the same as one could question any number of imaging segments, products, etc. It gets taken a step further - true, because of the estimable cost, but also because there are some who provoke and mis-represent. Which leads to me feeling the need to at least share my experience and my perspective on the market place.

I get it. But I'm also bullish on medium format digital. Many could just invest in 35mm DSLR, but clearly they want more, they desire something different. Do they not? Is this not relevant? Is this not important? A medium format digital camera is not an easy camera system to use and get results from, in contrast to other smaller camera systems (neither is 4x5, or 8x10, etc, for that matter). And yet, here we still are.

If anything, the fact that medium format digital is still here, the fact that medium format digital does continue to invest and evolve and expand capability and features, that at least some companies seem to be doing quite well, that smaller format camera systems continue to improve and advance, in the face of all this, if anything - to me - this to me seems like more of an ironic success story than a picture of doom and gloom.

Ultimately what would the real numbers actually mean, if anything, to you in terms of should you invest or not? In MFD's peak year in 2007 (let's just say, I don't know), there were 8,700 medium format new digital backs sold. In 2012, let's say there were 6,800 new units sold. Ok, so what then? In 2001 there were 5,500 units sold. So what then?

I don't know how many units get sold. But I know how many units every dealers sold in the US for quite a few years with 3 different companies. And I know how CI stacks up in the USA and (roughly) worldwide.

Especially when you add Leica and Pentax into the mix, I believe the number is easily over 6,000, might even be 7,000, maybe 8,000. But that is just my guess. These are not large companies and getting real numbers from them may never happen. But I would say looking at the real evidence in front of you - amazing competitive pressure, severe downturn in world economy, and then look at the segment, look at the products and the technology, look at the interest and enthusiasm, and I don't see why someone investing in a digital back today has any reason to feel concern. Does your investment take a hit? Yes, of course, all digital capture products take a hit, the difference is in the dollars, the percentages are probably similar. You can either afford to be in medium format digital, or you cannot. That is the market. The interest is there, the desire is there, the enthusiasm is there. The size of the market is dictated by those who can afford it. I'm not saying it's a rich persons market, (a 40MP Pentax is $6,900), I'm just saying it is a market for those who can afford it. Regardless of what numbers anyone wishes to project, the real evidence is that the market continues to exist, and pretty strongly so.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration








Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8011


WWW
« Reply #148 on: May 20, 2013, 11:33:19 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

I actually think the absolute numbers are important. That is keeping vendor, R&D and dealer chain alive. You need to have a critical mass to survive.

If sales drop to low support operation you go out of business, unless you are in Germany. German companies seem to have get financing quite easily.

If you have a critical mass you still need working on being competitive.

Best regards
Erik


Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place.

Logged

lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 435


WWW
« Reply #149 on: May 20, 2013, 12:41:08 PM »
ReplyReply

if cassette tapes can make a come back, as this bbc report suggests, then maybe there is more hope for the future of medium format cameras than one would have thought.... heck maybe even kyocera could return from wherever old oems go to die
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 12:48:17 PM by lowep » Logged
JoeKitchen
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 749



« Reply #150 on: May 20, 2013, 01:14:06 PM »
ReplyReply

if cassette tapes can make a come back, as this bbc report suggests, then maybe there is more hope for the future of medium format cameras than one would have thought.... heck maybe even kyocera could return from wherever old oems go to die

This such a poor comparison.  Cassettes offered no advantages over CDs other than they could be recorded on over and over again.  Compared to MPG players, cassettes have no advantages.  Plus cassettes have no "vintage" sound to them like records. 

A MF back on a tech camera has a large amount of advantages over its 35mm counter part.  That is why I just got a Arca this year. 
Logged

Joe Kitchen
www.josephmkitchen.com

"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
“Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.”  William Faulkner
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #151 on: May 20, 2013, 01:47:28 PM »
ReplyReply

if cassette tapes can make a come back, as this bbc report suggests, then maybe there is more hope for the future of medium format cameras than one would have thought.... heck maybe even kyocera could return from wherever old oems go to die

I don't think this makes a case for MF digital. If anything this makes a case for film. It's about analogue compared to digital.

Speaking to a friend that is a photo buyer/clearance person that sees heaps of images for bands he told me that the amount of images that he sees that are from film is on the rise.
Often deliberately processed "rough" to look even less HiFi.
Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #152 on: May 20, 2013, 01:52:24 PM »
ReplyReply


A medium format digital camera is not an easy camera system to use and get results from, in contrast to other smaller camera systems.


What is harder about shooting with a Phase One DF compared to another digital DSLR?
Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #153 on: May 20, 2013, 02:43:30 PM »
ReplyReply

I don't see why someone investing in a digital back today has any reason to feel concern. Does your investment take a hit? Yes, of course, all digital capture products take a hit, the difference is in the dollars, the percentages are probably similar.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Not even close. Just look at used lenses on ebay.

A couple of examples:
Phase One 150mm 2.8 IF
New $3.490
Ebay $ 1.918

Loss $1572 45%

Nikon 70-200mm
New BH $2,396
Ebay $1,950

Loss $446 18%

Nikon 85mm 1.4G
New $1,629
Ebay $1,400

Loss 229 14%

Canon 85mm 1.2 II
New $ 1999
Ebay $ 1600

Loss $399 20%  but many of these lenses go for more.

D800
New BH $2796
Ebay $2,400

Loss $ 396 14%
Logged
JoeKitchen
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 749



« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2013, 02:45:09 PM »
ReplyReply

What is harder about shooting with a Phase One DF compared to another digital DSLR?

Personally, I would read this as you need to shoot at base ISO, since MF does not work well with high ISOs.  Also, to achieve the same blur with a lens of similar angle of view, you often need to use a smaller aperture.  Both of these things are going to require more lighting skill and more power.  

I assume that you, Fred, shoot at low ISOs any way, as do I, so the transition would not be that big of a deal, after learning the camera.  But for someone who has limited light skill and shoots at ISO 400+ this could be an big issue.  
Logged

Joe Kitchen
www.josephmkitchen.com

"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
“Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.”  William Faulkner
Steve Hendrix
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1156


WWW
« Reply #155 on: May 20, 2013, 03:06:25 PM »
ReplyReply

What is harder about shooting with a Phase One DF compared to another digital DSLR?


It's a fine difference, but I didn't simply say they were harder to use.

And I'm surprised you would ask, considering the effort you've put into showing your perspective on the advantages of Nikon.

So it's not open to interpretation, what I specifically meant is that 35mm DSLR's are IMO, generally able to achieve results over a wider set of parameters. They auto focus more effectively. They provide excellent Live Preview ability. Due to their lower resolution, tolerances aren't as stringent for obtaining results.

I can wing it with my 5D-MKII, and still get some good results. When I wing it with MFD, the success rate is lower. It requires more focus and concentration, at least in my experience. This doesn't make it harder to use in all situations, but you could say it does in some.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
Steve Hendrix
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1156


WWW
« Reply #156 on: May 20, 2013, 03:21:04 PM »
ReplyReply

Not even close. Just look at used lenses on ebay.

A couple of examples:
Phase One 150mm 2.8 IF
New $3.490
Ebay $ 1.918

Loss $1572 45%

Nikon 70-200mm
New BH $2,396
Ebay $1,950

Loss $446 18%

Nikon 85mm 1.4G
New $1,629
Ebay $1,400

Loss 229 14%

Canon 85mm 1.2 II
New $ 1999
Ebay $ 1600

Loss $399 20%  but many of these lenses go for more.

D800
New BH $2796
Ebay $2,400

Loss $ 396 14%



Your cherry picks are noted. There are also plenty of examples of 35mm digital capture bodies that have lost 50% - 70% within just a few years of a new body introduction.

Anyway, my point was that traditionally, digital camera bodies tend to take a bigger hit than lenses, but my larger point was that yes, your investment will take a hit. Hence, yes, that financial aspect does need to be taken into account. That doesn't mean that medium format digital is doomed.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #157 on: May 20, 2013, 04:34:57 PM »
ReplyReply


Your cherry picks are noted. There are also plenty of examples of 35mm digital capture bodies that have lost 50% - 70% within just a few years of a new body introduction.

Anyway, my point was that traditionally, digital camera bodies tend to take a bigger hit than lenses,[/b] but my larger point was that yes, your investment will take a hit. Hence, yes, that financial aspect does need to be taken into account. That doesn't mean that medium format digital is doomed.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

No not cherry picked just comparing current gear.
Anyone can see how much a Phase One back loses "just for being driven off the lot".

Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.

There's an IQ180 going for $ 30,000 on ebay from a very respected camera dealer here in the LA area. Well known for Leica etc.
It's mint with 200 shorts on it, still under warranty and has some offers, but not selling....

That's more than 25% below new price.

Another one here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78493.0

600 shots $ 26,500 or best offer

New now it's $37,990.  30% less  Drop of  $11,490

It's easy to go and see what a mint discontinued D700 with low shot count can get ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-DSLR-camera-body-IN-BOX-BARELY-USED-15-shutter-actuations-8GB-CF-/390594831328?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item5af14423e0

$ 2,000 32 bids sold in 5 days

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-12-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-w-Extras-Shutter-Count-736-Pristine-/111075528291?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item19dc9e0e63

$ 1,895

Last official new price was $2,199

Still selling well despite the d800 being 3x the pixel cound and having video.


Anyway, my point was that traditionally, digital camera bodies tend to take a bigger hit than lenses,[/b] .....

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

That's not the case with Phase One lenses..... they take quite a hard hit, but part of that can be attributed to the so so DF body with it's bugs, lockups and modest focusing system.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 05:13:51 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #158 on: May 20, 2013, 05:08:01 PM »
ReplyReply

Personally, I would read this as you need to shoot at base ISO, since MF does not work well with high ISOs.  Also, to achieve the same blur with a lens of similar angle of view, you often need to use a smaller aperture.  Both of these things are going to require more lighting skill and more power.  

I assume that you, Fred, shoot at low ISOs any way, as do I, so the transition would not be that big of a deal, after learning the camera.  But for someone who has limited light skill and shoots at ISO 400+ this could be an big issue.  

Lighting skills for low ISO do not have to be as good as for high ISO. At high ISO dynamic range falls dramatically and more skill is required to keep lighting ratios under control.

I'd say the biggest difference is that MF is usable in fewer situation, not harder.
Logged
Steve Hendrix
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1156


WWW
« Reply #159 on: May 20, 2013, 05:17:48 PM »
ReplyReply

No not cherry picked just comparing current gear.
Anyone can see how much a Phase One back loses "just for being driven off the lot".

There's an IQ180 going for $ 30,000 on ebay from a very respected camera dealer here in the LA area. Well known for Leica etc.
It's mint with 200 shorts on it, still under warranty and has some offers, but not selling....

That's more than 25% below new price.

Another one here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78493.0

600 shots $ 26,500 or best offer

New now it's $37,990.  30% less  Drop of  $11,490

It's easy to go and see what a mint discontinued D700 with low shot count can get ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-DSLR-camera-body-IN-BOX-BARELY-USED-15-shutter-actuations-8GB-CF-/390594831328?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item5af14423e0

$ 2,000 32 bids sold in 5 days

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-12-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-w-Extras-Shutter-Count-736-Pristine-/111075528291?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item19dc9e0e63

$ 1,895

Last official new price was $2,199

Still selling well despite the d800 being 3x the pixel cound and having video.


I'm not going to argue with you about the amount of digital camera depreciation while you cherry pick your examples of Nikon loss with eBay. Why would 32 people bid for a D700 from eBay, when they could buy one LN- from a reputable dealer like KEH for 25% less? It's easy to use eBay to distort the pricing the market bears.

http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Digital/system-Nikon-Digital/category-Camera-Bodies?s=1&bcode=DN&ccode=2&cc=80172&r=WG&f


I'm not belaboring a point, you are. You can argue that 35mm DSLR depreciation is less, but it doesn't matter to my larger point. My point was investment loss is part of the equation. I'm not concerned if that doesn't give you anything to use for your arguments.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
Pages: « 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 12 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad