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Author Topic: Worldwide medium format market  (Read 24389 times)
amsp
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« Reply #160 on: May 20, 2013, 05:23:27 PM »
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Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. I mean, you're even trolling PhaseOne youtube videos ffs (7 out of 9 comments, seriously?). You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.

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fredjeang2
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« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2013, 05:55:03 PM »
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We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD...

Yeah,
This is what it's all about.  
I think this forum would regain much interest if we could all have an adult and respectfull attitude on the diversity currently offered by the image industry equipment.

We should all take example of the most serious motion forums, I'd really like to see that spirit back. People workin (and apparently having less time to spend on futilities).
I see the Avid guys helping the FCP users and vice versa. The Red one guys helping the Arri ones and vice versa. Even some really high-end pros with settled reputation helping
wanabee dslrs, sometimes even repplying silly questions and never a discredit or a sarcasm.
Nobody steps into a brand forum or a system' forum to bomb it, even the old geared ones (and specially the old geared ones). Unthinkable in a serious motion forum.
As a result, the general tone are never infantile nor agresive but respect. Profesional. People are there to be helpfull and receive in return some help too. There aren't there
to opinate in vain on equipment and choices of equipments, and if they do it's never a crusade but short ideas and act 2.

I'm not for a false new age politically correct to the absurd. It's good to shake things. It's good to questionned things. Not like in the Red forum where the fanboyism and cultism is
sometimes pathetic. But...it's more understandable, it's a brand forum and expected. You take any brand forum and there is often a blind and agressive cultism involved.
(reminds me of my Apple "friends" who started to look at me strange after I decided to switch to peecees. They suddenly had the devil in front of them).  
But crusades and disqualifications, are not good, and specially in this section where there are a lot of active pros as well as serious amateurs and many old fox shooters
(sorry for the "old") who don't need mums to tell them what to do and how.

I don't understand why this is something so much difficult in the still world and why those regular crusades, those endless comparaisons, wars, brands,
those scientific "investigations" and those permanent bursts of exaltations when a new morepixelthanpixel camera is released etc...
Why the still imagery seems to be more prone to gear cultism and radical positions and less respect between system users?

It's a mystery to me.  
Maybe TMARK was right.  

See, it's like the other day I was amazed to see some people being in Mike's house for free, and starting a thread to complain on advertisings. I mean, where do we go?
And adverts are a source of revenus for a website they are using. I suggested that they should go and have a look on the Creative Cow if they really wanted to see
what advert invasion in a website means...
"it hurts my eyes" etc... if we go that way, why not tomorrow everyone writes to Mike about the site color? Green is not my color, could you please change that to red?
Or we could ask Michael to provide us a system that each time we launch Lu-La there is a N5 Chanel perfume spreading the editing room from the audio speakers.

Let's be serious folks.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 06:50:34 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2013, 06:55:36 PM »
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I'm not going to argue with you about the amount of digital camera depreciation while you cherry pick your examples of Nikon loss with eBay. Why would 32 people bid for a D700 from eBay, when they could buy one LN- from a reputable dealer like KEH for 25% less? It's easy to use eBay to distort the pricing the market bears.

http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Digital/system-Nikon-Digital/category-Camera-Bodies?s=1&bcode=DN&ccode=2&cc=80172&r=WG&f


I'm not belaboring a point, you are. You can argue that 35mm DSLR depreciation is less, but it doesn't matter to my larger point. My point was investment loss is part of the equation. I'm not concerned if that doesn't give you anything to use for your arguments.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration



Your link only confirma what I wrote.
Just look at the prices of the D700 and D800 right on the KEH website.

D800 new $   $2,796.95 ....  their used price LN $$2,399.00.

To put this argument into context what would CI buy a used mint IQ180 for from a customer who is not upgrading?


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kdphotography
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« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2013, 06:59:58 PM »
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Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. I mean, you're even trolling PhaseOne youtube videos ffs (7 out of 9 comments, seriously?). You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.


+1.

Wwwhoa. Wait a minute---I can get a Canon that will massage my shoulders?  Even the D800 doesn't do that...   Roll Eyes
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Gigi
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« Reply #164 on: May 20, 2013, 07:30:24 PM »
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We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too.

+2
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Geoff
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« Reply #165 on: May 20, 2013, 09:09:39 PM »
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Your link only confirma what I wrote.
Just look at the prices of the D700 and D800 right on the KEH website.

D800 new $   $2,796.95 ....  their used price LN $$2,399.00.

To put this argument into context what would CI buy a used mint IQ180 for from a customer who is not upgrading?





Like I said, I'm not going to argue with your cherry picking, even though you chose not to mention the D700, on the link I posted which - at $1,599 - is 50% less than the original purchase price of $2,999.

And the price I would offer for a mint IQ180 from a customer is between me and my customer. If you have an IQ180 you'd like to discuss, I'm all ears.

None of this has anything to do with my point, which was that there is investment loss. I don't see any reason I need to re-prove the point that I was already making.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2013, 09:10:36 PM »
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Yeah,
This is what it's all about.  
I think this forum would regain much interest if we could all have an adult and respectfull attitude on the diversity currently offered by the image industry equipment.

We should all take example of the most serious motion forums, I'd really like to see that spirit back. People workin (and apparently having less time to spend on futilities).
I see the Avid guys helping the FCP users and vice versa. The Red one guys helping the Arri ones and vice versa. Even some really high-end pros with settled reputation helping
wanabee dslrs, sometimes even repplying silly questions and never a discredit or a sarcasm.
Nobody steps into a brand forum or a system' forum to bomb it, even the old geared ones (and specially the old geared ones). Unthinkable in a serious motion forum.
As a result, the general tone are never infantile nor agresive but respect. Profesional. People are there to be helpfull and receive in return some help too. There aren't there
to opinate in vain on equipment and choices of equipments, and if they do it's never a crusade but short ideas and act 2.

I'm not for a false new age politically correct to the absurd. It's good to shake things. It's good to questionned things. Not like in the Red forum where the fanboyism and cultism is
sometimes pathetic. But...it's more understandable, it's a brand forum and expected. You take any brand forum and there is often a blind and agressive cultism involved.
(reminds me of my Apple "friends" who started to look at me strange after I decided to switch to peecees. They suddenly had the devil in front of them).  
But crusades and disqualifications, are not good, and specially in this section where there are a lot of active pros as well as serious amateurs and many old fox shooters
(sorry for the "old") who don't need mums to tell them what to do and how.

I don't understand why this is something so much difficult in the still world and why those regular crusades, those endless comparaisons, wars, brands,
those scientific "investigations" and those permanent bursts of exaltations when a new morepixelthanpixel camera is released etc...
Why the still imagery seems to be more prone to gear cultism and radical positions and less respect between system users?

It's a mystery to me.  
Maybe TMARK was right.  

See, it's like the other day I was amazed to see some people being in Mike's house for free, and starting a thread to complain on advertisings. I mean, where do we go?
And adverts are a source of revenus for a website they are using. I suggested that they should go and have a look on the Creative Cow if they really wanted to see
what advert invasion in a website means...
"it hurts my eyes" etc... if we go that way, why not tomorrow everyone writes to Mike about the site color? Green is not my color, could you please change that to red?
Or we could ask Michael to provide us a system that each time we launch Lu-La there is a N5 Chanel perfume spreading the editing room from the audio speakers.

Let's be serious folks.




Fredjeang2 -

I like your spirit and your outlook.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
rgmoore
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« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2013, 09:13:13 PM »
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Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. I mean, you're even trolling PhaseOne youtube videos ffs (7 out of 9 comments, seriously?). You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.




+3
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FredBGG
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« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2013, 10:22:24 PM »
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Like I said, I'm not going to argue with your cherry picking, even though you chose not to mention the D700, on the link I posted which - at $1,599 - is 50% less than the original purchase price of $2,999.

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Actually the more recent official price was $ 2,199.

Even against the official announcement price getting 50% on the item after 5 years is quite good if you consider that the replacement that goes for the $2,999 price today has 3x the pixel count and uncompressed video.

Lets look at a somewhat similarly aged MF item.

P65+ was launched at $39,990

Used:
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHASE-ONE-P65-DIGITAL-BACK-645DF-CAMERA-KIT-/121108886332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c32a6f33c&nma=true&si=jhjT7BljlEE18%252B558JBA9aBMhYU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557[url]

Sold for $ 9,000 even though it included a DF body as well.

That's a $30,990 77% loss.

It is pretty clear that the loss in resale value is far higher with MF than it is with more popular formats, but the MF dealers won't admit this.
I think that it is fair for photographers to know.
It's unfortunate that discussing this with some figures upsets some MF enthusiasts.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #169 on: May 20, 2013, 10:34:34 PM »
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Actually the more recent official price was $ 2,199.

Even against the official announcement price getting 50% on the item after 5 years is quite good if you consider that the replacement that goes for the $2,999 price today has 3x the pixel count and uncompressed video.

Lets look at a somewhat similarly aged MF item.

P65+ was launched at $39,990

Used:
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHASE-ONE-P65-DIGITAL-BACK-645DF-CAMERA-KIT-/121108886332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c32a6f33c&nma=true&si=jhjT7BljlEE18%252B558JBA9aBMhYU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557[url]

Sold for $ 9,000 even though it included a DF body as well.

That's a $30,990 77% loss.

It is pretty clear that the loss in resale value is far higher with MF than it is with more popular formats, but the MF dealers won't admit this.
I think that it is fair for photographers to know.
It's unfortunate that discussing this with some figures upsets some MF enthusiasts.


You continue to simply twist and mis-represent what I've said. And you take an extreme example and state it as doctrine. I think I said quite clearly, "investment loss is part of the equation". How that turns into not admitting is a great example of something that you have turned into an art form.

I don't think you have any shame. You've dedicated a substantial amount of your time and efforts to mis-represent the reality of the medium format market and then you try to act as if you have sympathy toward those MF enthusiasts who would be upset.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
FredBGG
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« Reply #170 on: May 20, 2013, 10:55:42 PM »
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You continue to simply twist and mis-represent what I've said. And you take an extreme example and state it as doctrine. I think I said quite clearly, "investment loss is part of the equation". How that turns into not admitting is a great example of something that you have turned into an art form.

I don't think you have any shame. You've dedicated a substantial amount of your time and efforts to mis-represent the reality of the medium format market and then you try to act as if you have sympathy toward those MF enthusiasts who would be upset.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 



Call it an extreme example if you want. Here is another and it's not doctrine, just examples backed up with the documented figure... that's all.

$ 17,000, but with 5 lenses.

The point that I made was to correct your statement that the percentage loss is the same for other formats. It's not and rather than accuse me of cherry picking etc
why not just admit that that's the way it is.

Investment loss is part of the equation, but for MF it a bigger percentage... quite simple... and it should be part of the decision making process
for any business. Each person can decide how much it counts.

On the other hand the low used prices make things better for those who want to get into MF.
There is a fair amount of gear out there for good prices.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 11:07:38 PM by FredBGG » Logged
kdphotography
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« Reply #171 on: May 20, 2013, 11:02:10 PM »
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Steve---don't waste your breath/time.  There's also been an uptick in fraudulent auctions at Ebay, and the pricing tends to be one of the first revealing factors to consider---yet here Fred likes to quote Ebay as the gospel truth of the demise of medium format digital, and in OCD paternalistic fashion has taken it upon himself to save us all from the evils of medium format digital.   Roll Eyes   I really don't see Ebay reflecting the worldwide medium format market.  Really.

We all get that Fred had a bad experience (albeit very short and abbreviated experience) with Phase One and couldn't get that old P25+ to work for him.  I really can't figure out why Phase One has the big target on their chest.  Shouldn't it be Ebay that really deserves the brunt of Fred's constant bashing?  I mean, c'mon, wasn't Ebay the seller there?  Oh, wait, I forgot.  Ebay isn't an authorized Phase One dealer that offers after sales support...   Wink

ken
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gerald.d
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« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2013, 11:05:20 PM »
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Hi Steve -

Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Much appreciated, and makes a great deal of sense.

I will comment on the value/depreciation/investment thing in a separate post, but just want to clarify the "respect" issue that I made.

This was in a reply to Guy's "My source is not coming from a dealer and lets leave it at that." comment. I find it patronising and disrespectful when two leading figures on MF forums provide contradictory information about the state of the market (one says its growing, the other says its declining) and I'm told I can't discuss it, and that I'm a troll if I attempt to.

I of course recognise that it wasn't you who said this, and in fact you subsequently provided a more detailed explanation behind your rationale for the figures you gave.

Kind regards,

Gerald.



My estimates are always about new product sales, in units sold, not also including 2nd hand, etc. Keep in mind when I offer a number, I am not stating it as a fact (nor have I ever). It is an educated guess on my part, based on my past employment with the following companies:

Imacon
SinarBron Imaging
PPR
Phase One
Capture Integration
14 years experience selling digital backs from Sinar/Jenoptik/Leaf/Mamiya/Imacon/Hasselblad/Phase One

I've been in corporate meetings with my employees discussing numbers, I've been in dealer/partner meetings with manufacturers discussing numbers, as one of the largest (and widest reaching) focused dealers for these products worldwide, I also have a decent sense of how things are out there in the marketplace.

All this only contributes to my estimation of the market and the performance of the market.

I will add I've never felt glad after the fact about providing this information, for the way my experience gets twisted to suit someone's agenda or mis-represented perspective.

When you talk about "respect", that seems to imply that there is disrespect tendered in the way that marketshare, sales numbers, etc, is provided. I don't see how that can be the case. I do not factually know the numbers. I can offer an educated guesstimate, I have offered educated guesstimates, and it's either like members don't believe me or they just pretend to not hear me. I don't have a lot of control over that.

I'm also going to say that the only reason that I even offer up any guess's is because some like to stir the pot of doom, and then see the masses run in fear. I think some actually take glee out of it. Does medium format digital have a future is a legitimate question. Just the same as one could question any number of imaging segments, products, etc. It gets taken a step further - true, because of the estimable cost, but also because there are some who provoke and mis-represent. Which leads to me feeling the need to at least share my experience and my perspective on the market place.

I get it. But I'm also bullish on medium format digital. Many could just invest in 35mm DSLR, but clearly they want more, they desire something different. Do they not? Is this not relevant? Is this not important? A medium format digital camera is not an easy camera system to use and get results from, in contrast to other smaller camera systems (neither is 4x5, or 8x10, etc, for that matter). And yet, here we still are.

If anything, the fact that medium format digital is still here, the fact that medium format digital does continue to invest and evolve and expand capability and features, that at least some companies seem to be doing quite well, that smaller format camera systems continue to improve and advance, in the face of all this, if anything - to me - this to me seems like more of an ironic success story than a picture of doom and gloom.

Ultimately what would the real numbers actually mean, if anything, to you in terms of should you invest or not? In MFD's peak year in 2007 (let's just say, I don't know), there were 8,700 medium format new digital backs sold. In 2012, let's say there were 6,800 new units sold. Ok, so what then? In 2001 there were 5,500 units sold. So what then?

I don't know how many units get sold. But I know how many units every dealers sold in the US for quite a few years with 3 different companies. And I know how CI stacks up in the USA and (roughly) worldwide.

Especially when you add Leica and Pentax into the mix, I believe the number is easily over 6,000, might even be 7,000, maybe 8,000. But that is just my guess. These are not large companies and getting real numbers from them may never happen. But I would say looking at the real evidence in front of you - amazing competitive pressure, severe downturn in world economy, and then look at the segment, look at the products and the technology, look at the interest and enthusiasm, and I don't see why someone investing in a digital back today has any reason to feel concern. Does your investment take a hit? Yes, of course, all digital capture products take a hit, the difference is in the dollars, the percentages are probably similar. You can either afford to be in medium format digital, or you cannot. That is the market. The interest is there, the desire is there, the enthusiasm is there. The size of the market is dictated by those who can afford it. I'm not saying it's a rich persons market, (a 40MP Pentax is $6,900), I'm just saying it is a market for those who can afford it. Regardless of what numbers anyone wishes to project, the real evidence is that the market continues to exist, and pretty strongly so.


Steve Hendrix
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eronald
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« Reply #173 on: May 20, 2013, 11:16:18 PM »
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I've found that most of the individuals who post here, including dealers and reps, are quit congenial and helpful, so could we all chill out and play nice?

Edmund
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« Reply #174 on: May 20, 2013, 11:22:40 PM »
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Hello,

Well yesterday I sold my Mamiya RZ/Leaf Aptus 75 kit on EBay to a chap in Australia for $9,350.00US dollars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221228532197?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

When you consider that I paid $45,000 dollars seven years ago for the back and all the thousands of dollars spent on the lenses and body the amount I got could be upsetting.

For me its not cause over the past seven years that back has made me over 2 million dollars.

Im just glad that the young photographer who has bought it will have years of enjoyment as I have had with my Mamiya RZ.

Why sell you ask simple the Nikon D800E has made it redundant for my type of work.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:02:39 AM by HarperPhotos » Logged

Simon Harper
Harper Photographics Ltd
http://www.harperphoto.com
http://www.facebook.com/harper.photographics

Auckland, New Zealand
FredBGG
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« Reply #175 on: May 20, 2013, 11:23:07 PM »
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Steve---don't waste your breath/time.  There's also been an uptick in fraudulent auctions at Ebay, and the pricing tends to be one of the first revealing factors to consider---yet here Fred likes to quote Ebay as the gospel truth of the demise of medium format digital, and in OCD paternalistic fashion has taken it upon himself to save us all from the evils of medium format digital.   Roll Eyes   I really don't see Ebay reflecting the worldwide medium format market.  Really.

We all get that Fred had a bad experience (albeit very short and abbreviated experience) with Phase One and couldn't get that old P25+ to work for him.  I really can't figure out why Phase One has the big target on their chest.  Shouldn't it be Ebay that really deserves the brunt of Fred's constant bashing?  I mean, c'mon, wasn't Ebay the seller there?  Oh, wait, I forgot.  Ebay isn't an authorized Phase One dealer that offers after sales support...   Wink

ken

For your information I bought most of my Phase One gear from GET DPI and this forum. I only bought the back from ebay and as I have repeated many times and you know it
I had no issues with the back. It worked flawlessly on the Fuji gx680 but it was with the two Phase One bodies that were problematic. Similar to problems many others have had.
Ebay isn't "the seller". The seller sells through ebay. I have a 100% rating on ebay and my experience in buying has always been 100% even the one time I had to make a return.

Also the price loss can be seen clearly on the forums too.

Here are some items currently for sale:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/45780-fs-phase-one-df-lenses.html

Prices lowered once again:
Phase One DF is perfect condition with spare battery inserts, gridded focusing screen, and arca-swiss L bracket: $2750.00   New 5.900
Phase One 55mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2600.00         $4,690.00                                                                                          
Phase One 80mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $1540.00         $2,990.00
Phase One 110mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2995.00        $5,390.00
Phase One Zoom AF 75-150mm f/4.5 slight scuff on hood: $2600.00     $4,690.00
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 11:49:58 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #176 on: May 20, 2013, 11:33:40 PM »
ReplyReply

Hello,

Well yesterday I sold my Mamiya RZ/Leaf Aptus 75 kit on EBay to a chap in Australia for $9,350.00US dollars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221228532197?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

When you consider that I paid $45,000 dollars seven years ago for the back and all the thousands of dollars spent on the lenses and body the amount I got could be upsetting.

For me its not cause over the past seven years that back has made me over 2 million dollars.

Im just glad that the young photographer who has bought it will have years of enjoyment as I have had with my Mamiya RZ.

Why sell you ask simple the Nikon D800E has made it redundant for my type of work.

Cheers

Simon

There it is in a nutshell.

If the investment will enable you to earn the money and the loss on the investment factors in well then everything works out well.

A young photographer buys into MF from an end user and for a good deal and unlike new MF gear it will most likely hold it's value longer.

The D800E replaces the MF with a relatively smaller investment.

One does need to keep in mind that times have changed quite a lot and the IQ difference is getting smaller and BOTH FORMATS meet and most of the time exceed most publishing format requirements.

One thing is for sure. Both top of the line 35mm DSLR and even middle of the road MF is way up there as far as IQ goes.

Simon that Jim Beam image of the girls in the movie studio is really nice.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 11:44:47 PM by FredBGG » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #177 on: May 20, 2013, 11:33:45 PM »
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The depreciation is partly the effect of the dealer margins - you cannot sell your used equipment at a price higher than the dealer can buy the same refurbed from the manufacturer. However you can hope for trade-ins.

I'd say you have a 30% depreciation within 1 months of buying your back, and then maybe 15% per year, so in fact buying used equipment is a good deal. And the old stuff works great too, I sold my P45+ to a member of this forum recently and heard no complaints.

As for the D800, obviously anyone on this forum, even me, could get brilliant images with it - the days when you *had* to use MF to get decent images are over, but I think Kodachrome is to blame for that as much as Nikon.

Edmund

For your information I bought most of my Phase One gear from GET DPI and this forum. I only bought the back from ebay and as I have repeated many times and you know it
I had no issues with the back. It worked flawlessly on the Fuji gx680 but it was with the two Phase One bodies that were problematic.
Ebay isn't "the seller". The seller sells through ebay. I have a 100% rating on ebay and my experience in buying has always been 100% even the one time I had to make a return.

Also the price loss can be seen clearly on the forums too.

Here are some items currently for sale:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/45780-fs-phase-one-df-lenses.html

Prices lowered once again:
Phase One DF is perfect condition with spare battery inserts, gridded focusing screen, and arca-swiss L bracket: $2750.00   New 5.900
Phase One 55mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2600.00         $4,690.00                                                                                          
Phase One 80mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $1540.00         $2,990.00
Phase One 110mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2995.00        $5,390.00
Phase One Zoom AF 75-150mm f/4.5 slight scuff on hood: $2600.00     $4,690.00
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 11:36:00 PM by eronald » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #178 on: May 21, 2013, 12:01:04 AM »
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the days when you *had* to use MF to get decent images are over, but I think Kodachrome is to blame for that as much as Nikon.

Edmund


The jobs an 8x10 used to be used for is today for the large part done by MF and is becoming 35mm DSLR territory.

Sony. Nikon and Canon are pushing IQ to levels that were unimaginable not to long ago and for very accessible prices.





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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #179 on: May 21, 2013, 12:20:05 AM »
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Hi Steve -

Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Much appreciated, and makes a great deal of sense.

I will comment on the value/depreciation/investment thing in a separate post, but just want to clarify the "respect" issue that I made.

This was in a reply to Guy's "My source is not coming from a dealer and lets leave it at that." comment. I find it patronising and disrespectful when two leading figures on MF forums provide contradictory information about the state of the market (one says its growing, the other says its declining) and I'm told I can't discuss it, and that I'm a troll if I attempt to.

I of course recognise that it wasn't you who said this, and in fact you subsequently provided a more detailed explanation behind your rationale for the figures you gave.

Kind regards,

Gerald.



No one ever called you a troll lets make that perfectly clear. Also my comment at leave it at that is too protect people from maybe possibly losing there job . I am not going to risk that chance of that happening. It came from a person high on the totem poll. It was a question I asked in passing and obviously not verifiable as with anyone that throws numbers out like these. Your dealing with several companies with marketing, customer and industrial secrets that are not always for public consumption . We all should know that as we all run or work for any business that has its own trade secrets. I would never let anyone know how many jobs or revenue I make in a year for instance. There is really no difference in what Steve has said or or what I have said as he comes from a dealer prospective and has sales numbers for the company he works for as a guide. I was speaking more on a global level of totally worldwide . Bottom line the numbers are low compared to other formats in this industry. Again as Steve will tell you its not about guys like us buying these things but aerial, governments, scientific fields, museums and so on that big buyers of these systems. Even big catalog houses for instance use Phase . Macy's studios in New York for instance uses Phase MF . Actually looking at some big studio jobs awhile back it came up quite a lot for MF digital abilities .

Also buying used prices will vary between dealers and users simply because of seller comfort level on what the want to sell for or more important there motivation behind it. I sell stuff sometimes cheap because I'm in a hurry to get something else for instance. Dealers for the most part do not have these type of motivations to clear there used shelves. So pricing can be very deceiving and this happens with any camera and end users. Some folks just want to get rid of stuff fast or don't care. I know sometimes that makes no sense but I see it all the time. It's pretty interesting to watch the used market as its pretty damn fickle. I just bought a old used Leica R 19mm lens for some good money but 2 years ago I could have stole one for cheap. Oh that is getting bolted on a Nikon. Lol

But even though you may see a P65 for cheap. Many things can account for that outside of pure numbers. Buying used can be tricky . Hell buying new can be worse. I'm on my second Sigma 35 1.4 , my third Nikon 50 1.4. Got lucky on my 85 and sold my 14-24 for nasty focus shifting. Sold my Nikon 24 and 35 1.4 lenses for Zeiss at one time early on. So lens whores like me are a classic case of selling to getting something else and maybe needing it fast. But I make money off my gear so I don't always care too much on getting a good return. This is why I view pricing of used gear as fickle. MF depreciates no question about it , so do cars. Not much you can do about it and for guys that shoot for commerce we make money from it, so depreciation may not feel as painful. Just some prospective on it, you mileage will certainly vary and hope it does. I'm a lens whore you don't want to be me. Lol
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