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Author Topic: Worldwide medium format market  (Read 25662 times)
lowep
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« on: May 10, 2013, 10:13:23 AM »
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"We think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all brands"

according to Stephan Schulz, Head of Professional Photo at Leica Camera AG, in this interesting Forbes magazine article.

Maybe enough to fill a container?

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sgilbert
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 10:27:44 AM »
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Maybe enough to make Leica's sales appear to be a large percentage.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 10:59:32 AM »
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So, that makes me 0,03% of the total market. I suddenly feel really important... Wink
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ondebanks
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 04:29:06 PM »
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Interesting that he ball-parks Phase One at 40%, Leica at 20%...that leaves Pentax, Leaf and Hasselblad to fight for the remaining ~40% [one presumes that Sinar gets a few percent still also]. Since Pentax seems to be doing a roaring trade in Japan let alone elsewhere, one wonders how much share Leaf and Hasselblad have? 10% each? Seems awful low.

Ray
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design_freak
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 05:24:08 PM »
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We need to read "Phase One" as P1, Leaf and Mamiya  Cool
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 06:06:10 PM »
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It was around the same 5 years ago: http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p65-announced.shtml
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FredBGG
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 06:38:49 PM »
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This part is a real laugh:

Quote
StS: The S-System lenses have been designed from scratch, and optimized, for digital imaging – a crucial distinction. With film, there is nothing between surface of the film and the lens. But with digital, you have layers of glass between the sensor and the lens (for example the glass that protects the sensor). These layers of glass have an impact on performance. Lenses designed for medium format film obviously didn’t account for the layers of glass. The result is some degradation of image quality when such lenses are used in digital. Our made-for digital lenses, on the other hand, were designed only with digital sensors in mind. The result is a significant difference in image quality.

There’s another big practical advantage to designing specifically for digital: medium format film cameras have always had a problem keeping a large surface area of film completely flat. To compensate for this unevenness, medium format lenses were designed to mask the imperfections of an uneven recording surface – by not providing peak sharpness. But with digital sensors, unevenness is a non-issue. This allowed us to develop lenses that deliver uncompromising peak sharpness.

Especially funny considering that they did flips and twists to get Hasselblad lenses onto the Leica.

And until ones and zeros come out of the back of a lens it analogue  Wink
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FredBGG
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 09:56:24 PM »
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What ever the numbers are I very much doubt that the numbers are holding at where they were 5 years ago.

CIPA doesn't publish the numbers anymore.

When I asked CIPA why they did not publish numbers anymore there answer was that due to how small the market has become and how few manufacturers there
are publishing the numbers would give the other MF manufacturers to much information.

I don't see how that "excuse" holds up. If you consider that the 35mm DSLR market is dominated by 2/3 manufacturers you would have an analogous issue.

IF one looks at the last numbers CIPA published in the last few years it reported MF numbers the trend was one of fast decline and low manufactured numbers.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=10221.0;wap2
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 10:02:47 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 10:06:58 PM »
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What ever the numbers are I very much doubt that the numbers are holding at where they were 5 years ago.

CIPA doesn't publish the numbers anymore.

When I asked CIPA why they did not publish numbers anymore there answer was that due to how small the market has become and how few manufacturers there
are publishing the numbers would give the other MF manufacturers to much information.

I don't see how that "excuse" holds up. If you consider that the 35mm DSLR market is dominated by 2/3 manufacturers you would have an analogous issue.

IF one looks at the last numbers CIPA published in the last few years it reported MF numbers the trend was one of fast decline and low manufactured numbers.



BullCrap.

I know for a fact what some of the numbers were for various manufacturers in given years. I expect 6,000 units today to be a reasonable estimate, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. It is probably less than the peak years of MFD sales, which to my estimation likely parked in the 8,000 - 9,000 range. If today is only down 15% - 20% I consider that quite a compelling argument in favor of the staying power of MFD, considering the advances 35mm has made in that same timespan.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 10:57:02 PM »
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Fred,
If Dustbak is .03, then what percentage of the market are you? Oh right ZERO! You don't MFDB.  Why even post? Why even post on the Large format forum? Do you have secret MFDB envy? Can't figure out why a sane person would otherwise spend so much time on this forum that is designated for people that use MFDB.

There are people that instead of constantly attacking and trying to build conspiracy cases against manufacturers actually add and share information.  I much prefer that kind of involvement.  You've got everyone fighting and it isn't fun.    When I coached hockey, my rule was cut everyone that is negative too much or whines too much.  It brings everything down. You would be the first on my list to eliminate from the roster - a no brainer - not cause you aren't a good photographer, but because you are a whiner and a complainer.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 11:05:17 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 11:20:31 PM »
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Hi,

I would guess Hasselblad has a better share than 10%, they also seem to offer relatively low price at entry level.

If Phase has a market share of 40% they are just to gratulate, excellent job.

Best regards
Erik

Interesting that he ball-parks Phase One at 40%, Leica at 20%...that leaves Pentax, Leaf and Hasselblad to fight for the remaining ~40% [one presumes that Sinar gets a few percent still also]. Since Pentax seems to be doing a roaring trade in Japan let alone elsewhere, one wonders how much share Leaf and Hasselblad have? 10% each? Seems awful low.

Ray
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jerome_m
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 12:49:36 AM »
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Interesting that he ball-parks Phase One at 40%, Leica at 20%...that leaves Pentax, Leaf and Hasselblad to fight for the remaining ~40% [one presumes that Sinar gets a few percent still also]. Since Pentax seems to be doing a roaring trade in Japan let alone elsewhere, one wonders how much share Leaf and Hasselblad have? 10% each? Seems awful low.

Indeed. 10% of 6000 would be 600 cameras. The Hasselblad Ferrari edition is produced in a series of 499 cameras. That would mean that Hasselblad produces only 101 "non Ferrari" H4D a year...
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leeonmaui
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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2013, 12:52:12 AM »
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Aloha,

One container maybe, but that's one very expensive container!
say one cubic foot contains one high end MF system-2600 cubic feet x $45000 = $117,000,000
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hasselbladfan
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2013, 03:55:59 AM »
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Indeed. 10% of 6000 would be 600 cameras. The Hasselblad Ferrari edition is produced in a series of 499 cameras. That would mean that Hasselblad produces only 101 "non Ferrari" H4D a year...

It took Hasselblad about 4 years to sell this "Ferrari" quantity (499 ex.) and about 2-3 years for the "Stainless" body (100 ex.).

That should mean 150 specials per year and only 450 normal bodies. That seems very low to me.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2013, 04:40:45 AM »
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BullCrap.

I know for a fact what some of the numbers were for various manufacturers in given years. I expect 6,000 units today to be a reasonable estimate, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. It is probably less than the peak years of MFD sales, which to my estimation likely parked in the 8,000 - 9,000 range. If today is only down 15% - 20% I consider that quite a compelling argument in favor of the staying power of MFD, considering the advances 35mm has made in that same timespan.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration



Take a look at ebay lately?

Looks like a lot of people leaving MF... never seen so many for sale.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 05:20:44 AM »
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Fred,
If Dustbak is .03, then what percentage of the market are you? Oh right ZERO! You don't MFDB.  Why even post? Why even post on the Large format forum? Do you have secret MFDB envy? Can't figure out why a sane person would otherwise spend so much time on this forum that is designated for people that use MFDB.

There are people that instead of constantly attacking and trying to build conspiracy cases against manufacturers actually add and share information.  I much prefer that kind of involvement.  You've got everyone fighting and it isn't fun.    When I coached hockey, my rule was cut everyone that is negative too much or whines too much.  It brings everything down. You would be the first on my list to eliminate from the roster - a no brainer - not cause you aren't a good photographer, but because you are a whiner and a complainer.



Eric.... read your post again and ask yourself who is whining.

As for being zero percent.... where does the OP say digital MF?
Been there, done that and the zero percent you refer to
 is a growing trend.

As for hockey.. big boys chasing a little puck and hitting it with a big stick... I'll take kitesurfing, and mountain biking.

http://www.kiteforum.tv/video/kitecam_psycho_3_13.html

No full of them selves yelling coaches, outside in big nature and rather than clobbering some other team it's about playing WITH and not AGAINST big nature. Last time I was out on the water it was kitesurfing with migrating whales.
I by far prefer learning from observing other riders on the water than some yelling coach.

Always preferred animals to team sports coaches...

http://youtu.be/dxu9Yy8IoyM

My high school swimming coach was a pervert that humiliated swimmers by forcing them to swim
naked in a freezing pool. We got rid of the sick creep by a slow swim protest at a swim meets.
One of my team mates wore a bondage outfit at one meet and telling the judges he did so because that was probably was
probably what the coach would really like to see.

Seems like swimming coach abuse is pretty common today too....

Google "swimming coach abuse"

« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 05:47:39 AM by FredBGG » Logged
JoeKitchen
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« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2013, 06:42:56 AM »
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Now this topic went off the deep end, no pun intended.   Wink

I wonder if it is 6000 backs sold, or 6000 backs and/or kits sold?  I think Hassy would make a great come back if they opened there system again.  Any one I talk to who uses a reflex system would prefer to shoot with a Phase on a Hassy; no one goes bananas for the Mamiya.  I think this would be a great opportunity for them.  Also, I assume Hassy makes there own lenses, right?  This never made sense to me, why not just outsource it to Schneider, Rodenstock or Zeiss (assuming the answer to my question was "yes").  They would do a better job at a lower price since they already have years and years of collected knowledge on lenses, not to mention considerably more resources since all three make lenses for many other applications other than photography.

As for the 6000 units per year, that is not a bad number.  if the average back/system cost $30K (a reasonably conservative assumption), that's $180M in revenues per year.  Phase share would be $72M.  You can do a lot with $72M, especially if you have someone else with a track record worry about the lenses (Schneider).  
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Joe Kitchen
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"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
"Try not to be just better than your rivals and contemporaries, try to be better than yourself."  William Faulkner
JoeKitchen
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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 06:48:15 AM »
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Got to hand it you Fred, you always manage to somehow work kitesurfing into the conversation.   Cheesy
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Joe Kitchen
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"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
"Try not to be just better than your rivals and contemporaries, try to be better than yourself."  William Faulkner
kdphotography
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 08:48:56 AM »
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Except kite surfing is probably more dangerous than WiFi enabled MFDBs from Phase....I mean, using them without your aluminum foil hat.   Grin

http://catchsomeair.us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=133:kiteboardingsafety&id=240:kiteboarder-killed-by-shark-kiteboarding-safety-rules-you-must-follow&Itemid=67
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 08:59:09 AM »
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Hi,

Nope, they are upgrading to IQ 180. :-)

Best regards
Erik

Take a look at ebay lately?

Looks like a lot of people leaving MF... never seen so many for sale.
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