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Author Topic: Worldwide medium format market  (Read 23021 times)
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2013, 12:59:54 PM »
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That says a lot about MFD. IF the manufacturer can't handle support there has to be something
somewhat unsatisfactory about their product. If reliability and usability is such that support issues are overwhelming
then it becomes essential for the manufacturers to to price the gear and repairs in such a way to
leave sufficient margin to attract specialized dealers that will generally be studio equipment suppliers
rather than general photography stores.

There is also the issue of how much of a salesman pitch is needed for certain items to sell.

A retail store has a line of clients to deal with and cannot be chasing down clients on forums, direct mailing, local trade shows etc etc

The cost of dealer channel in MFD is to a certain extent like car sales. The price drops significantly just by driving the car off the lot.

Just get an estimate from an MF dealer and then compare it to the price for the same gear from a volume
dealer like BH. Different, but it is an indication of the margins. I have also found that in general doing a lot of negotiation
when buying non retail store pro gear can lead to getting prices significantly lowered, even years ago before the digital revolution.
This because manufacturers want dealers to have a significant monetary incentive to sell their products.
Shifting support to their dealers is a second way to give them an incentive. When a 5 year VA warranty is sold I'm sure the dealer gets a fair share of it.

As volumes go down prices have to go up so as to maintain the manufacturing costs, the dealers and to be able to supply the product to the diminishing or simply small market.

When a camera offering goes from 12MP to 36MP with only a moderate price difference (both launch prices) it sells by itself
and they fly off the shelves. On the other hand the relatively diminishing IQ advantage of MF requires more of the skills of the salesman
to keep sales going for those sales to photographers that are not printing 60x40in.

While there is a diminishing IQ advantage there is still an advantage..... sort of like HiFi and out eyes are far more refined than our ears.
So in saying there is a diminishing IQ difference I mean no disrespect to those that require it or simply enjoy it.
However the reality in the  market is that there are simply fewer and fewer prolific publishing formats that require more
quality than is produced by much cheaper cameras and motion image is getting more and more prolific, even if it isn't story telling
buy simply motion  photography illustrating and creating a mood. Actually very fun and liberating for a photographer.

Going back to support it is important to have it. IF equipment is hellishly expensive it is even more important.
With far less expensive gear it is less important because a back up cameras would cost about the same as a repair job on an MF back.






No, it says a lot about ....your.....perspective.

I didn't say Phase One can't handle support. What I meant was that they would be overwhelmed unless they added support resources (essentially taking on the brunt of the support that is done by first line dealers). The support that they do provide is critical, as we rely on it for hardware repair and extreme and unique software troubleshooting, but the cases in which this is required, meaning for when we contact and interface with Phase One is in the minority of circumstances. This means they have staffing and resources to handle less of the support than if the channel was exclusive B&H or direct.

Phase One dos not need dealers to "pitch" their products. I do't know if I have ever "pitched" a product. Dealers are necessary to discuss the appropriate product for use (which can get quite complicated, someone using a digital back for fashion is very different than someone using a tech camera for landscapes). Because of the expense of these products, defining the appropriate solution is extremely important, they are not generalized, swiss army knife products, they are specialized products that work well for one application but not so well for another. Adding a $20K - $30K digital back to a cart is a recipe for disappointment when the wrong choice is made. It's an expensive mistake.

That is the bulk of what we spend our time on, making sure the most appropriate product is chosen, or even making sure that MFD is the right choice at all. It is not unusual for me to talk someone out of MFD and opt for 35mm instead. It depends on their expectation. I explain the comparative reality for them.

Is a dealer like CI more expensive than B&H for MFD? Maybe sometimes yes, other times no. At any rate, the difference in pricing does not represent or explain a significant amount of the actual price of MFD. My point is that when a knowledgeable, supportive dealer channel is taken out, the additional support costs for the manufacturer will negate most of the potential savings for direct or low service channels.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

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Steve Hendrix
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lowep
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2013, 01:17:29 PM »
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i have never bought a camera from a dealer mainly because I don't live anywhere near one so i rely a lot on forums like this one even though many people who appear to be posting impartial advice have a hidden agenda or an axe to grind
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2013, 01:41:28 PM »
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Keep in mind that dealer support isn't just about technical support. It's also customer advocacy (at least for the good dealers). In the part quarter I have had 2 instances where products were out of warranty - but not dramatically so - and have had repair charges reversed. This was not at the customer's request - this was at our initiation. The customers assumed they had repair charges coming. They were pleasantly surprised. Try getting that done direct or from online retailers.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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lowep
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2013, 01:54:18 PM »
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good point... so far I have never had to return a camera for repairs but that is just luck and I guess sooner or later my turn will come. however i have had to return quite a few faulty computer components and providing the warranty was still valid the process is usually fairly effortless: email contact with customer care to explain the problem that more often than not ends with a request to return the product that is replaced with no more questions asked. quite simple. maybe camera companies have a different dna than computer companies do?
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FredBGG
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2013, 02:07:53 PM »
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Keep in mind that dealer support isn't just about technical support. It's also customer advocacy (at least for the good dealers). In the part quarter I have had 2 instances where products were out of warranty - but not dramatically so - and have had repair charges reversed. This was not at the customer's request - this was at our initiation. The customers assumed they had repair charges coming. They were pleasantly surprised. Try getting that done direct or from online retailers.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

That was nice of you to do.

I've had a Canon part replaced free of charge three years out of warranty. Dropped it off to Canon in Irvine. They said they had never seen that part fail and it should not.
The camera did look mint and had a low shot count.

I did have an issue with something I bought from BH. Had some issues with the manufacturer. I made a call to BH. They called the manufacture and got back to me
with a number and name. Problem resolved in two phone calls. When a reseller that sells massive numbers calls a manufacturer they jump.

That said a relatively samll but specialized company like yours most likely sells significant numbers for a low volume company like Phase etc so
your influence on them would be significant.

When I was starting out I did sales/demos for pro equipment in Italy. Margins had room for demo guy and dealer.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 02:10:37 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2013, 02:13:52 PM »
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good point... so far I have never had to return a camera for repairs but that is just luck and I guess sooner or later my turn will come. however i have had to return quite a few faulty computer components and providing the warranty was still valid the process is usually fairly effortless: email contact with customer care to explain the problem that more often than not ends with a request to return the product that is replaced with no more questions asked. quite simple. maybe camera companies have a different dna than computer companies do?

Very different products. Computer products cost millions to develop but pennies to make... well relatively speaking.
Many times it's cheaper to send out an RMA and replacement rather than stay on the phone longer....
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lowep
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« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2013, 02:21:59 PM »
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Computer products cost millions to develop but pennies to make

whereas cameras...  Huh
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FredBGG
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« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2013, 03:19:07 PM »
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Computer products cost millions to develop but pennies to make

whereas cameras...  Huh

Most computer components such as ram and expansion cards etc are assembled by totally automated production lines.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2013, 03:36:36 PM »
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Phase One uses programmable FPGAs in their backs, which means that they can fix bugs in their hardware with firmware updates. It increases unit costs though, for mass-production it's better to make a hardwired custom circuit really test it extremely well and then mass-produce.

Most of the use of FPGA is to make improvements based on continued research after the point at which production has started.

Improvements to long exposure, high ISO, and taking advantage of the full speed of CF cards developed after the camera ships are all made easier by using a FPGA.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
gerald.d
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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2013, 04:23:41 PM »
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Nice argument on support, but it is flawed.  Should a company provide support for its own products or rely on dealers to do so?  In terms of a moral answer, that is up in the air.  In terms of a business model, it is much better for the company to rely on dealers for the support.  It requires them to employ less people since they only need enough "sales staff" to talk with a very limited amount of clients (the dealers) in the world market.  Likewise, having no support staff also gives them the ability to keep employment cost low.  They also do not need to create a large complicated network of sales persons throughout the world.  This does put the burden on the dealers, but it is much safer for the manufacturer, in what ever industry.  And just to expanded, I know of no one who bought a Nikon D800e directly from Nikon.  Even you Fred, I am sure walked into your local camera store (or went online) and ordered it from a company independent from Nikon.  

This is true with cars; no car company sells cars to the public.  They sell them to the dealer, which sell them to the public.  The dealer may use the name of the car company in their name, but they are still a separate entity.  And when you take your car to the dealer to be serviced, the mechanics do not work for the car companies, but for the dealer.  Yes, there is a good amount of training they may be required to go through for the right to work there, and I am sure the dealers are put through annual tests to keep the right to sell cars, but Phase probably puts their dealers through the same thing.  Of course there are exceptions to this, like BMW.  You can visit the factory if you want and drive out your car.  Watch it being finalized and ask the company questions about driving it for "no extra charge."  But what does that mean?  It means you are paying for it, it is already baked in the cake.  

If Phase provided support as opposed to the dealers, I am sure that backs would be more expensive since it is easier for a small company to service their specific geography that a single company providing service to the entire world.  If you do not believe me, talk to some facilities managers of national businesses about why they are in charge of handling the smaller construction projects (<$1M) at their locations than the main office.  It is just more cost effective.  

But hold on a moment, this is a fundamentally flawed argument.

If there's something wrong with your car, yes - it goes back to the dealer and the dealer fixes it.

If there's something wrong with your Phase One back, it goes back to the dealer. Who then send it back to Copenhagen for Phase One to fix it.

Or maybe that's just in this part of the world?

Perhaps the big US dealers participating in this thread could provide some clarity on the kind of servicing they actually carry out in-house?


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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2013, 05:14:26 PM »
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But hold on a moment, this is a fundamentally flawed argument.

If there's something wrong with your car, yes - it goes back to the dealer and the dealer fixes it.

If there's something wrong with your Phase One back, it goes back to the dealer. Who then send it back to Copenhagen for Phase One to fix it.

Or maybe that's just in this part of the world?

Perhaps the big US dealers participating in this thread could provide some clarity on the kind of servicing they actually carry out in-house?





I will gladly do so.

First - the number of times we receive a phone call from a client and are informed of a hardware repair needing warranty service, for which we simply ship the container for the customer is an extremely low number. Instead, the vast majority of our "technical support" cases involve quite extensive exchanges of information, painstaking diagnosis and troubleshooting, elimination of variables, etc. Many times technical support issues are resolved for our clients by us over the phone (or via email, etc). A sampling of technical support calls over a 4 week period showed about 70% of them were settings/software/usage related and about 30% of them hardware related (meaning some hardware repair potentially was needed). However even in hardware cases, before we just ship a box to Copenhagen, the unit comes to our facility and we put it through our own testing and diagnosis in an attempt to confirm/isolate/dispose of the problem. Sometimes this results in the problem being resolved. No - we do not generally perform hardware repairs on digital backs - at least we don't open them up and replace components. We do perform hardware resolution.

This is just a part of the story. Since digital backs are inherently more complex in usage than 35mm DSLR's - which for the most part, just do what they do within their own enclosed environment - a substantial amount of our technical support actually turns more into technical instruction and guidance. Our clients are constantly taking their digital backs and using them on a multitude of various camera with various lenses, all with their own unique formulas for success (and failure).

This is probably one of the most significant elements of end user experience that separates us from a B&H, etc. In many cases, we know more about a product than the manufacturer does (in terms of real world usage with all the various options). Further, this covers every model in the segment, both new and legacy models that go back generations, due to the accumulation of real world performance and usage data culled from supporting thousands of clients using these products for years.

Our clients never have to have any contact with the manufacturer at all - it's not as simple as my LCD no longer turns on, it's almost always far more complex and lends itself to interpretation, and it's never you vs the manufacturer. The most important factor in my opinion is that our mode is to solve the problem. We didn't make the product. We don't feel any need to defend it or to abstain from responsibility for the performance or lack of it. Our objective is the satisfaction of the client for the benefit of what often is a very close and long term relationship.

I hope that does shed some light.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 05:26:34 PM by Steve Hendrix » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2013, 05:23:57 PM »
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Steve -
I couldn't be more supportive of the benefit a good dealer can provide to this mix.... but there are a few things that stand out in your well written response above. Before others jump in, perhaps you could clarify:

- what is "hardware resolution" if you don't tinker with the hardware?
- for the 30% needing hardware attention, do they go back to Denmark, or are there some cases of this you can fix locally?
- do you think the accumulated "memory" of different installations at a major dealer can rival P1 own internal understandings?

It wouldn't be surprising: car dealers used to know more about the real issues with the cars than the manufacturers of limited production vehicles, and indeed, the factories tended to rely on them. One need only think of Sean Reid's input to Leica as another example of this in the photo world - sometimes the manuf. needs outside inputs.

Thanks for your inputs on this most important part of chain.

Geoff
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Geoff
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2013, 05:42:25 PM »
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Steve -
I couldn't be more supportive of the benefit a good dealer can provide to this mix.... but there are a few things that stand out in your well written response above. Before others jump in, perhaps you could clarify:

- what is "hardware resolution" if you don't tinker with the hardware?
- for the 30% needing hardware attention, do they go back to Denmark, or are there some cases of this you can fix locally?
- do you think the accumulated "memory" of different installations at a major dealer can rival P1 own internal understandings?

It wouldn't be surprising: car dealers used to know more about the real issues with the cars than the manufacturers of limited production vehicles, and indeed, the factories tended to rely on them. One need only think of Sean Reid's input to Leica as another example of this in the photo world - sometimes the manuf. needs outside inputs.

Thanks for your inputs on this most important part of chain.

Geoff


Hi Geoff -

By "hardware resolution", what I mean is that a digital back may not have a component failure. Maybe it is an issue that a firmware update resolves, for example CF Cards not reading properly because of a compatibility issue that updated firmware takes care of. Or, because these are often used with an assortment of cameras/lenses etc, perhaps it's a focusing issue, but the issue ends up not being in the digital back itself, but a lens mounted in a lenspanel that we can adjust. There are some minor repairs that we can do (sync port repairs, CF Card door hinges, etc) that are commonly within performed in our environment.

The 30% we can't handle are typically either where the unit has to be opened up in a clean room, or where the diagnosis has been confirmed by us, but the resolution remains unclear or is likely that a repair or component replacement is necessary. And in these cases, the majority of them go to Denmark if they are Phase One, or to New York for Leaf Valeo/Aptus (Credo for now would go to Israel). Hasselblad would also go to Denmark.

I'm glad you asked about our knowledge base vs the manufacturer. I don't want to downplay the manufacturer at all. A good manufacturer partner is critical to our support. We rely on them for prompt communication and good turnaround times and appropriate repairs, as well as having another level of diagnosis for the really odd cases that we haven't seen before. Our strength is probably on the many different configurations and ways an end user would use a digital back. We're in front of these clients and working with them closely, so we see a lot. But the manufacturer is still extremely important, because on many levels, they know exactly what the product should be able to do (designed to do). This can be a dual edged sword - "Well, sorry, it isn not designed for that." "Yes, but I want to use it this way!".  Cheesy


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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FredBGG
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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2013, 05:50:34 PM »
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By "hardware resolution", what I mean is that a digital back may not have a component failure. Maybe it is an issue that a firmware update resolves, for example CF Cards not reading properly because of a compatibility issue that updated

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Why is a dealer needed for doing a firmwire update? It's a pretty simple thing to do.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2013, 06:23:41 PM »
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Why is a dealer needed for doing a firmwire update? It's a pretty simple thing to do.


It's not that a dealer is needed to do the firmware update, and it is not necessarily simple. A dealer would be needed to diagnose whether you should update the firmware or not. This was only listed as one of the potential hardware interventions (among numerous) we might do after we receive a digital back and diagnose the issue.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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FredBGG
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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2013, 06:51:29 PM »
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It's not that a dealer is needed to do the firmware update, and it is not necessarily simple. A dealer would be needed to diagnose whether you should update the firmware or not. This was only listed as one of the potential hardware interventions (among numerous) we might do after we receive a digital back and diagnose the issue.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Why on earth would a diagnoses be needed to determine if a firmwire update is required.
What diagnostic equipment do you use?
Isn't new firmware supposed to be better than the old firmware.

One would think that a customer update of the firmware should be done before sending in a camera and not having it available.

Or does flaky new firmware introduce new problems?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 06:53:01 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Gigi
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« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2013, 07:08:23 PM »
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soft touch?
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Geoff
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« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2013, 07:15:16 PM »
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Why on earth would a diagnoses be needed to determine if a firmwire update is required.
What diagnostic equipment do you use?
Isn't new firmware supposed to be better than the old firmware.

One would think that a customer update of the firmware should be done before sending in a camera and not having it available.

Or does flaky new firmware introduce new problems?


Because - at least on Earth - symptoms don't always point to firmware, but instead firmware may or may not be involved in the resolution.

New firmware isn't necessarily better than old. If the diagnosis of the issue hasn't obviously identified the culprit, we may indeed have a client update the firmware (with our instructions). However, it isn't always clear, and firmware updating may indeed turn out to be the solution after we receive the unit.

New firmware doesn't necessarily introduce problems, but with any firmware that is always a potential, and if the new firmware doesn't improve on anything with the model of the unit in question, then our position is there's no reason to implement it in most cases.

The point of mentioning firmware was only in response to Geoff's question about what hardware tweaking we actually do. There are many minor hardware interventions we get involved in - like repairing a PC Sync socket on a digital back, etc.

Our diagnostic equipment - which is unique in that it is state of the art and yet is fully backward compatible, is our minds. Thanks for asking.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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FredBGG
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« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2013, 07:30:11 PM »
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The 30% we can't handle are typically either where the unit has to be opened up in a clean room, or where the diagnosis has been confirmed by us, but the resolution remains unclear or is likely that a repair or component replacement is necessary. And in these cases, the majority of them go to Denmark if they are Phase One, or to New York for Leaf Valeo/Aptus (Credo for now would go to Israel). Hasselblad would also go to Denmark.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

From the Hasselblad website:

Quote
About Imacon and Hasselblad camera back service
All repairs and service on Imacon and Hasselblad camera backs must be performed in the factory service workshop in Gothenburg, Sweden.

When you need to have your camera back serviced, you need to contact either the business who originally sold you the camera back or the Hasselblad Business Partner in your country.
They will help you locate the failure, and they will help sending your camera back for repair.
The factory service workshop strives to do the repairs in a swift and reliable way, and you will be asked for approval to continue the repair if the cost is estimated to exceed EUR 700,-.
We have defined fixed repair prices for the most common types of repair. Please refer to the "Cost estimates and fixed prices" section.
The target turnaround time for camera repairs in the factory service workshop is 10 working days + transportation to- and return from Sweden.

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/about-imacon-and-hasselblad-camera-back-service.aspx

They also have a fixed service price list:

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/cost-estimates-and-fixed-service-prices.aspx

In the US you can send to Hasselblad USA for service to Sweden.

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FredBGG
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2013, 08:00:46 PM »
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The 30% we can't handle are typically either where the unit has to be opened up in a clean room, or where the diagnosis has been confirmed by us, but the resolution remains unclear or is likely that a repair or component replacement is necessary.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Cost of repair:


The cost of out of warranty repairs on digital backs that require opening the back is high. It requires an industrial clean room and someone with enough training and experience to disassemble and reassemble the back and repair the back regardless of which component has failed. Partly due to the markets served (including major intuitional and corporate users that use the back 8 hours a day 300+ days a year) the repairs are executed to extremely high standards and include a 6-month warranty; re-repairs, especially compared to other photographic equipment, is very rare (based on my experience as a point of service for such equipment).

Clean room?

Why would a clean room be needed to repair a digital back when they are not even assembled in a clean room?
Anyone can clearly see that these backs are not made in a clean room...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QOY5qy7SGY&feature=share&list=PLD22E66923E2F8D9C

Hair down, wearing jewelry and no gloves. Even assembly of the sensor onto the back is done without gloves.

Even an ISO 8 clean room requires a clean room frock, hair cover and clean room footwear.
ISO 8 is the lowest clean room standard.

It's funny how MF dealers love to use buzz words and fancy language to make MFDBs sound more exotic than they are.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 08:24:21 PM by FredBGG » Logged
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