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Author Topic: Worldwide medium format market  (Read 16122 times)
gerald.d
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« Reply #180 on: May 21, 2013, 12:25:27 AM »
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And here we go again with this almost constant FUD aimed at dissuading people from buying and selling MFDB's privately.

Warranties on Phase One backs are transferable internationally. I have just had a very satisfactory service on an IQ180 that I bought privately - through Ebay, from half-way across the world. There are MANY instances of private offers that, if you apply some due diligence, are perfectly safe transactions to enter into, but that some regular forum commentators, dealers, and forum owners, seem very keen to dissuade from happening.

It's never direct. In fact, sometimes people will offer their support for the person doing the selling. But there is a constant drone of background FUD being sown in every single discussion on this forum and GetDPI when someone asks a question about either getting into MFDB, or buying and selling in the marketplace. Anyone visiting these forums potentially looking for a used back may well go to the "for sale" sections and go "ooh, that looks like good value", then read the general sections of the forums, and run a mile in fear.

I want to use my IQ180 purchase, plus evidence (from MF forums, not Ebay) of recent sales attempts, and trade-in offers to highlight what I believe is a totally distorted market.

Firstly, two recent "for sale" notices placed over at GetDPI for IQ180's.

(Case 1) Under 10k actuations. Less than 2 years old. More than 3 years left on a VAR. Offered for $23K. Dropped to $22.5K. Offer currently pending.

(Case 2) 1150 actuations. Again, less than 2 years old. Again, more than 3 years left on a VAR. Initially offered for $27.5K. Dropped to $22.5K. Sold

Now, my IQ180 purchase.

Bought through eBay a little over a year ago for $27.5K. Weigh that up against an offer at the time from the local dealer to purchase an ex-demo kit (including DF and 80mm), with 4 years remaining on a VAR, for roughly $41.5K.

Let me get this out of the way up front. I was very happy with the price I paid for my IQ180. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that it's probably depreciated by around $7.5K in the year that I've owned it. That is, it would appear to have depreciated that much were I to want to sell it privately now.

But is that actually a realistic, or shall I dare to use the word, "fair", valuation? Is it really "fair" that IQ180's with less than 2 years on the clock, and with 3 years worth of VAR left, are seemingly worth only 50% of what they originally cost if you want to sell privately?

Dealers, for reasons best known to themselves, seem to choose not to put a public price on their used IQ180's. But they do list prices of other used backs. Yes, I know - if I wanted to I could contact them and ask them. But I'm not in the market for a used IQ180. So I have no intention of asking, because presumably the figure would be provided in private, and I'd be asked not to share it.

So what's the closest I can find since I can't find an openly advertised price on a used IQ180 on a dealer's website?

$28K for an IQ160 with around 10,000 shots and a year's warranty. What price an IQ160 new? $31K

What about trade-in. What's the (list price) trade in value for an IQ180 against an IQ280? Well, list price of an IQ280 (no VAR) is $44K. Trade-up will cost you an additional $13K, so the trade in value would appear to be $31K.

Can someone please explain to me the following, because there is simply no way these facts could co-exist in an open market? There is nothing wrong with any one of them in and of itself. It's the combination of all of them that simply does not make sense.

1. If you attempt to sell an IQ180 privately, you'll lose 50% of the original value in depreciation over the first 2 years.
2. Trade-in an IQ180 for an upgrade to the 280, and you'll lose 30% against the original price you paid for it, and just 18% against the newly adjusted price (they are now $37K)
3. If you want to buy a used IQ160 from a dealer, that dealer will imply that the depreciation on the back is only around 10% of its value after 10,000 shots against the new price. Presumably, it is fair to assume then, that the dealer would look to sell a used IQ180 for around $33K.


An IQ180 is worth $31K against the purchase price of a new IQ280. From many comments on the forums, it would seem that there won't be a huge number of those upgrades going on. Some will be upgrading from IQ160's or P65's, sure. But surely there are some people out there who are buying IQ280's new?

The only reason I can come up with for people struggling to sell their IQ180's for even 70% of their trade-in value is because the market is totally distorted, and it's been totally distorted by the repeated FUD being liberally thrown around these forums.

Steve---don't waste your breath/time.  There's also been an uptick in fraudulent auctions at Ebay, and the pricing tends to be one of the first revealing factors to consider---yet here Fred likes to quote Ebay as the gospel truth of the demise of medium format digital, and in OCD paternalistic fashion has taken it upon himself to save us all from the evils of medium format digital.   Roll Eyes   I really don't see Ebay reflecting the worldwide medium format market.  Really.

We all get that Fred had a bad experience (albeit very short and abbreviated experience) with Phase One and couldn't get that old P25+ to work for him.  I really can't figure out why Phase One has the big target on their chest.  Shouldn't it be Ebay that really deserves the brunt of Fred's constant bashing?  I mean, c'mon, wasn't Ebay the seller there?  Oh, wait, I forgot.  Ebay isn't an authorized Phase One dealer that offers after sales support...   Wink

ken
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:50:40 AM by gerald.d » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #181 on: May 21, 2013, 01:00:56 AM »
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No one ever called you a troll lets make that perfectly clear. Also my comment at leave it at that is too protect people from maybe possibly losing there job . I am not going to risk that chance of that happening. It came from a person high on the totem poll. It was a question I asked in passing and obviously not verifiable as with anyone that throws numbers out like these.

High on the Totem Poll and getting fired for throwing out a rough number for sales in the overall MF industry?

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gerald.d
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« Reply #182 on: May 21, 2013, 01:01:24 AM »
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tl/dr version:

Price for a buyer of an IQ180 including 3 years VAR bought privately: $22K-ish

Extrapolated price to a purchaser of an IQ180 bought from a dealer with just 1 year warranty: $33K-ish.

That's a 50% uplift.

Something is very wrong with that.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 01:04:06 AM by gerald.d » Logged
gerald.d
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« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2013, 01:17:43 AM »
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No one ever called you a troll lets make that perfectly clear.

You accused me of making insulting comments, and implied that supplying any further information to back up your statements would be feeding trolls.

Just because someone challenges you; just because someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't make their comments insulting, and it doesn't make them a troll.

Look. You and I are never going to agree on this subject Guy, because we are coming at it from diametrically opposite perspectives.

You believe the customer should support the industry. You make that very clear indeed.

I believe the industry should support the customer.
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Rob C
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« Reply #184 on: May 21, 2013, 03:15:37 AM »
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Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.




Why do you appear to confine rhe opposition to Christian fanatics?

Rob C
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #185 on: May 21, 2013, 05:08:28 AM »
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You accused me of making insulting comments, and implied that supplying any further information to back up your statements would be feeding trolls.

Just because someone challenges you; just because someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't make their comments insulting, and it doesn't make them a troll.

Look. You and I are never going to agree on this subject Guy, because we are coming at it from diametrically opposite perspectives.

You believe the customer should support the industry. You make that very clear indeed.

I believe the industry should support the customer.


Gerald I did find part of your post somewhat insulting, sorry its the way I read it and if we where face to face that probably would not be the case just like my comment on supporting the industry. I never ever said they should not support us as well, no question they should. It's one of the reasons on MF gear I buy from a dealer, I want any support I can get. But that's me and my choice. I have been having issues buying new Nikon gear and it being far off the mark in regards to the IQ off the assembly line. I'm not going to sit here and whine about it though. Really what's the point as it does not help me, its just the way I deal with this stuff.

Again I never referred anything to you as being a troll, that is something you are reading wrong so if that is the case than sorry you are not who I was talking about in anyway. Unfortunately the written word is just taken out of context. Welcome to forums.

Any and all comments on buying used is depends on the situation as to going that direction or not. I buy used gear all the time. But it depends on many factors which I'm not going to do a grocery list on but if it feels good to me than I do. I buy a lot of lenses used for instance but I have been burned on occasion too with quality of the product. Bottom line for me it just depends since there are risks. I'm very keen on forum sales for instance as I do get a lot of PMs about buying and selling. I have heard of some great deals and some bad ones as well. It's people's money they can buy whatever they want and where they want.

Its also my right and my choice to make a comment and not be forced into explaining it any further without comments why I won't. I have my reasons and I don't need to share them if I don't want too. I'm no different than anyone else here that makes a post. I owe no one anything and don't work for anyone but me. You took exception to what I posted as not to explain it. Lets be clear I'm free to say whatever the hell I want just like you do. Be it I'm a leader in this industry or not your words I have that right.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #186 on: May 21, 2013, 05:21:36 AM »
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That all being said and not because of this thread but for several months these conversations are just getting boring and right now I'm looking for peace and tranquility in my life right now, just too much going on for me. So I'm checking out for awhile. You all take care and Happy shooting.
Bye
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Rob C
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« Reply #187 on: May 21, 2013, 07:40:28 AM »
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That all being said and not because of this thread but for several months these conversations are just getting boring and right now I'm looking for peace and tranquility in my life right now, just too much going on for me. So I'm checking out for awhile. You all take care and Happy shooting.
Bye


That's wise; I've done the same from time to time, and when I discover that I miss more than what I don't miss, I return, always hoping no doors have been slammed on my toes. Okay, I have big feet.

I wish you all the best in the personal life; been there, understand the horror.

Rob C
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lowep
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« Reply #188 on: May 21, 2013, 07:49:37 AM »
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I don't think this makes a case for MF digital. If anything this makes a case for film. It's about analogue compared to digital.

Speaking to a friend that is a photo buyer/clearance person that sees heaps of images for bands he told me that the amount of images that he sees that are from film is on the rise.
Often deliberately processed "rough" to look even less HiFi.

My Contax 645 can shoot film as well as digital as can many other MF cameras with the appropriate back that is not an option with most digital DSLRs. But this is beside the point that is a lot of the appeal of MF has to do with old habits and nostalgia value ie a leftover from the old days when MF film cameras were a step up in prestige as well as functionality from DSLRs just as DSLRs were and still are a step up the ladder from compact cameras.

Maybe another reason for the on-going popularity of MF in the digital age is the large pool of former MF film shooters who at some stage in their career had upgraded from DSLR film and convinced themselves as I did that MF digital must be better than DSLR digital without realising until after they bought their new camera that MF digital was completely different ball game than MF film? If so this may be a good argument for valuing knowledgeable dealers who can help purchasers make better informed decisions just as car salesmen can do.

Today many hot professionals and other lukewarm ones opt for medium format for good technical reasons -- but not everybody who buys a MFDB does so because they need rise and fall and a big sensor. Just as not every punk band who opts to output their music on cassettes does it for technical reasons.

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2013, 08:08:56 AM »
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And here we go again with this almost constant FUD aimed at dissuading people from buying and selling MFDB's privately.

Warranties on Phase One backs are transferable internationally. I have just had a very satisfactory service on an IQ180 that I bought privately - through Ebay, from half-way across the world. There are MANY instances of private offers that, if you apply some due diligence, are perfectly safe transactions to enter into, but that some regular forum commentators, dealers, and forum owners, seem very keen to dissuade from happening.

It's never direct. In fact, sometimes people will offer their support for the person doing the selling. But there is a constant drone of background FUD being sown in every single discussion on this forum and GetDPI when someone asks a question about either getting into MFDB, or buying and selling in the marketplace. Anyone visiting these forums potentially looking for a used back may well go to the "for sale" sections and go "ooh, that looks like good value", then read the general sections of the forums, and run a mile in fear.

I want to use my IQ180 purchase, plus evidence (from MF forums, not Ebay) of recent sales attempts, and trade-in offers to highlight what I believe is a totally distorted market.

Firstly, two recent "for sale" notices placed over at GetDPI for IQ180's.

(Case 1) Under 10k actuations. Less than 2 years old. More than 3 years left on a VAR. Offered for $23K. Dropped to $22.5K. Offer currently pending.

(Case 2) 1150 actuations. Again, less than 2 years old. Again, more than 3 years left on a VAR. Initially offered for $27.5K. Dropped to $22.5K. Sold

Now, my IQ180 purchase.

Bought through eBay a little over a year ago for $27.5K. Weigh that up against an offer at the time from the local dealer to purchase an ex-demo kit (including DF and 80mm), with 4 years remaining on a VAR, for roughly $41.5K.

Let me get this out of the way up front. I was very happy with the price I paid for my IQ180. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that it's probably depreciated by around $7.5K in the year that I've owned it. That is, it would appear to have depreciated that much were I to want to sell it privately now.

But is that actually a realistic, or shall I dare to use the word, "fair", valuation? Is it really "fair" that IQ180's with less than 2 years on the clock, and with 3 years worth of VAR left, are seemingly worth only 50% of what they originally cost if you want to sell privately?

Dealers, for reasons best known to themselves, seem to choose not to put a public price on their used IQ180's. But they do list prices of other used backs. Yes, I know - if I wanted to I could contact them and ask them. But I'm not in the market for a used IQ180. So I have no intention of asking, because presumably the figure would be provided in private, and I'd be asked not to share it.

So what's the closest I can find since I can't find an openly advertised price on a used IQ180 on a dealer's website?

$28K for an IQ160 with around 10,000 shots and a year's warranty. What price an IQ160 new? $31K

What about trade-in. What's the (list price) trade in value for an IQ180 against an IQ280? Well, list price of an IQ280 (no VAR) is $44K. Trade-up will cost you an additional $13K, so the trade in value would appear to be $31K.

Can someone please explain to me the following, because there is simply no way these facts could co-exist in an open market? There is nothing wrong with any one of them in and of itself. It's the combination of all of them that simply does not make sense.

1. If you attempt to sell an IQ180 privately, you'll lose 50% of the original value in depreciation over the first 2 years.
2. Trade-in an IQ180 for an upgrade to the 280, and you'll lose 30% against the original price you paid for it, and just 18% against the newly adjusted price (they are now $37K)
3. If you want to buy a used IQ160 from a dealer, that dealer will imply that the depreciation on the back is only around 10% of its value after 10,000 shots against the new price. Presumably, it is fair to assume then, that the dealer would look to sell a used IQ180 for around $33K.


An IQ180 is worth $31K against the purchase price of a new IQ280. From many comments on the forums, it would seem that there won't be a huge number of those upgrades going on. Some will be upgrading from IQ160's or P65's, sure. But surely there are some people out there who are buying IQ280's new?

The only reason I can come up with for people struggling to sell their IQ180's for even 70% of their trade-in value is because the market is totally distorted, and it's been totally distorted by the repeated FUD being liberally thrown around these forums.



Gerald -

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. After you mentioned the IQ160, I looked at that listing and that price is not correct. That is, it is based on the previous list price of $36,990, not the current $30,990. So it needs to be modified, which we'll do today.

IQ180's are indeed openly listed with pricing on our site as well (there's one listed right now for $29,990). At times we've had a "call for price" policy and at other times we've featured all prices. There's no right or wrong, and in both cases we make some happy and displease others. Even if we publish a price on a used product, there's no reason someone shouldn't call.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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hasselbladfan
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« Reply #190 on: May 21, 2013, 09:05:44 AM »
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Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.

+5
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JoeKitchen
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« Reply #191 on: May 21, 2013, 10:19:06 AM »
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I find this whole conversation about MFDB costing more at the dealer than from private hands comical.  And it seems those arguing this are doing so under the assumption that it is only the case with MF.  

Last I checked, you can buy an used car from a dealer or a private party, and, just like with MFDBs, the same car from the dealer is most likely going to be 15% to 25% higher in price.  Is the back better from the dealer than from private hands?  Maybe, maybe not.  

A good dealer is going to thoroughly test the product before selling, giving more of a guarantee.  Is the private party going to do this?  Maybe, or maybe he does not know any better.  I've seen a few copal shutters where the selling party guaranteed they were working fine.  In fact, they were not, but they did not know any better.  They also did not know that you should never change shutter speeds when the lens is cocked, or open the lens when it is cocked, etc.

I would not buy anything from a private party with getting a return policy in writing.  I also would not buy anything from a private party that I would not be 100% familiar with and be able to test on my own.  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 10:21:05 AM by JoeKitchen » Logged

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« Reply #192 on: May 21, 2013, 10:20:46 AM »
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> quote asmp   I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me.

My Contax 645 can shoot film as well as digital as can many other MF cameras with the appropriate back that is not an option with most digital DSLRs.

Yes, its seemed to have gotten lost somewhere until ASMP (+6) brought it to the fore that people have a choice.  I still shoot MFDB for a lot of reasons, but one of them is just that I like the look of the image better.  I like the camera (Rollei AFi/Hy6/6008) for its choice of big viewfinders and ergonomics too as well as having leaf shutter lenses with fast sync speeds. I also like the MF crop much better than the 3::2 of DSLR's.   And as pointed out, I can still shoot film with them if I choose.  For me its a much better fit than any of the DSLR's.

I have a nikon F4 that once in a while I'll pick up and shoot film with and I always wonder why Nikon couldn't get such a nice viewfinder in one of their DSLR's.  
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« Reply #193 on: May 21, 2013, 10:34:50 AM »
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Hi,

For me it is a bit the other way around. I have a Sony Alpha 900 and a Sony SLT 99. The Alpha 900 was regarded to have one of the better optical viewfinders among DSLRs, the SLT has an electronic viewfinder. On the other hand, the SLT has live view, which is essentially one of the main reasons I bought it, the other is it has workable presets.

So I have a camera with a great optical viewfinder and one with a so so electonic one, but I still use the EVF camera mostly, because I can use live view to focus. Other advantages are less vibrations because it does not have a moving mirror and it also has electronic first curtain, and a nifty virtual horizon.

Best regards
Erik

> quote asmp   I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me.

Yes, its seemed to have gotten lost somewhere until ASMP (+6) brought it to the fore that people have a choice.  I still shoot MFDB for a lot of reasons, but one of them is just that I like the look of the image better.  I like the camera (Rollei AFi/Hy6/6008) for its choice of big viewfinders and ergonomics too as well as having leaf shutter lenses with fast sync speeds. I also like the MF crop much better than the 3::2 of DSLR's.   And as pointed out, I can still shoot film with them if I choose.  For me its a much better fit than any of the DSLR's.

I have a nikon F4 that once in a while I'll pick up and shoot film with and I always wonder why Nikon couldn't get such a nice viewfinder in one of their DSLR's.  
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FredBGG
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« Reply #194 on: May 21, 2013, 11:21:52 AM »
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Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage.

Hmmm. Have you ever collected signatures in support of gay marriage?
Have you ever dedicated some real time to it?

I know the issue well and support equal rights. I have several close relatives that are gay
but would still support equal rights regardless.

Where have I forced anyone to stop shooting MF?

I certainly have not in this thread.

I shoot MF as well as large format.

I don't have as you claim some sort of faith based opposition to MFD.
If I did why on earth would I have lent a Fuji GX680 system to a photographer
I only met in a single PM on lula to use with an IQ back for a couple of weeks?

Going back to the Christian fanatic comparison I find it offensive to throw around those words.
I am an atheist, but have respect for other peoples faiths.
Despite being an atheist I had no problem volunteering with the Comboni Missionaries
over many years.

Call me out if you wish, but have the class to leave out peoples religions in your attacks.

To make another analogy while I support equal rights (gay marriage) I am not ideologically opposed to someone that does not support
it. They have the right to choose to not support it by not marrying someone of the same sex as well as not supporting
changing current laws, but they do not have IMO the right to impose their beliefs on a a gay couple that wants to get married.

Find me one instance where I have forcibly stopped someone from shooting MF....
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sgilbert
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« Reply #195 on: May 21, 2013, 11:33:53 AM »
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Ha.  Another point for Fred:  no one can point to his ever threatening a photographer who wanted to use DMF.

If you respond to or discuss anything he says, he wins.  Mea culpa.
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« Reply #196 on: May 21, 2013, 12:10:30 PM »
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Hi,

I guess that Fred has a different view, simply, he is entiled to it. If you make a large investment I would say it makes a lot of sense to listen to all arguments before committing.

Best regards
Erik

Ha.  Another point for Fred:  no one can point to his ever threatening a photographer who wanted to use DMF.

If you respond to or discuss anything he says, he wins.  Mea culpa.
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« Reply #197 on: May 21, 2013, 12:14:23 PM »
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Hmmm. Have you ever collected signatures in support of gay marriage?
Have you ever dedicated some real time to it?

I know the issue well and support equal rights. I have several close relatives that are gay
but would still support equal rights regardless.

Where have I forced anyone to stop shooting MF?

I certainly have not in this thread.

I shoot MF as well as large format.

I don't have as you claim some sort of faith based opposition to MFD.
If I did why on earth would I have lent a Fuji GX680 system to a photographer
I only met in a single PM on lula to use with an IQ back for a couple of weeks?

Going back to the Christian fanatic comparison I find it offensive to throw around those words.
I am an atheist, but have respect for other peoples faiths.
Despite being an atheist I had no problem volunteering with the Comboni Missionaries
over many years.

Call me out if you wish, but have the class to leave out peoples religions in your attacks.

To make another analogy while I support equal rights (gay marriage) I am not ideologically opposed to someone that does not support
it. They have the right to choose to not support it by not marrying someone of the same sex as well as not supporting
changing current laws, but they do not have IMO the right to impose their beliefs on a a gay couple that wants to get married.

Find me one instance where I have forcibly stopped someone from shooting MF....

Yet again you pull out the victim card when someone confronts you on your absolutely ridiculous behavior, huh? Big surprise there. Fred, I can't even take you seriously enough anymore to argue with you. Like most people who have been around here for some time I've realized it's about as constructive as beating my head against a brick wall. Not once have I seen you actually listen to criticism, you construe everything people say to fit your agenda, and no matter what you seem hellbent on making a complete fool of yourself. It's like you're living in your own little universe of self delusion.

So, go ahead and do your thing, but don't expect people will keep dancing to your tune. Besides, anyone who's interested can just google your screen name and make up their own mind whether or not your intentions are as pure as you keep claiming, it's quite simple really.

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torger
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« Reply #198 on: May 21, 2013, 01:48:21 PM »
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I'm not particularly offended by Fred's postings. As I see it constant criticism is no more tiring than constant fanboyism. He does post informative and helpful things too. The quarrels can be tiring at times but I'm still drawn to these threads to watch the carnage Smiley

As much as I like my MFD tech camera I'm not particularly fond of the way the digital medium format industry works. There's good and there's bad, and indeed the quality level of smaller formats is now so high and the MFD cost level is still the same that it's becoming increasingly difficult to find rational reasons to shoot MFD. I have a few and they suffice for me so far, but I think it would be possible to make it a bit more easy to be a MFD photographer than it is today.

Key to that is the MFD companies actually want to reach more customers in new markets and sell more products, with some more mass-market thinking we could get products with lower pricing that are easier to support. I think they should look more into the market of advanced amateurs, not just rich amateurs. There one can find a mass-market. It seems like there's a move in the opposite direction though, into industrial, reproduction and scientific photography, which is a great market to be in if you want to sell low amounts of something really expensive that require lots of support Smiley
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #199 on: May 21, 2013, 03:09:02 PM »
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Yeah but what's the point of all that then? There are people building gear. Nikon is one, Phase is another one etc...each brand with its own vision, politics, designs etc etc...
A brand or a system is not pleasing someone? A customer service is not satisfying someone? A design is not suiting someone? Tech-performances is not, is not is not... Perfect.
Well change the brand and that's it. Stop to use stuff one don't like. Nikon and Canon have been doing great stuff for decades. And ?
Criticism is always good. But when it becomes all the time, at each oportunity, with the very same argumentation over and over again, targeting the same gear over and over again,
it stops to be constructive and starts to be something else; a crusade.

Somebody express his-her opinions one 2 or 3 time and that's it. We know what the person thinks, we got the points. What's the need of more and more of the same?

I mean, why it has to be even debated? Do people really think that Hassy or Phase executives are really going to change their politics and roadmaps by reading those threads?

If it was the case it would be remotly, remotly usefull. But it ain't gona happen.


« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 04:48:48 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
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