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Author Topic: Worldwide medium format market  (Read 23213 times)
Gigi
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« Reply #200 on: May 21, 2013, 03:15:34 PM »
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I'm not particularly offended by Fred's postings. As I see it constant criticism is no more tiring than constant fanboyism. He does post informative and helpful things too. The quarrels can be tiring at times but I'm still drawn to these threads to watch the carnage Smiley

As much as I like my MFD tech camera I'm not particularly fond of the way the digital medium format industry works. There's good and there's bad, and indeed the quality level of smaller formats is now so high and the MFD cost level is still the same that it's becoming increasingly difficult to find rational reasons to shoot MFD. I have a few and they suffice for me so far, but I think it would be possible to make it a bit more easy to be a MFD photographer than it is today.

Key to that is the MFD companies actually want to reach more customers in new markets and sell more products, with some more mass-market thinking we could get products with lower pricing that are easier to support. I think they should look more into the market of advanced amateurs, not just rich amateurs. There one can find a mass-market. It seems like there's a move in the opposite direction though, into industrial, reproduction and scientific photography, which is a great market to be in if you want to sell low amounts of something really expensive that require lots of support Smiley

Two views of the same thing: one is from the consumer viewpoint, the other more aware of the maker's view. Given the small number of units actually made, I consider us just plain old lucky to have the options we have. Imagine if they were all to pack up and go home....

Both views are valid, but in the interest of civilty, its useful to recognize the shortcomings of each: the consumer viewpoint wonders why these companies don't adjust more rapidly with the times, and meet possibly emerging markets, discount to raise market share, and provide what seem to be reasonable conveniences. The "makers view" recognizes the limited support capabilities of these smaller companies, the important role of a dealership struggle, and frankly put, will accept some deficiencies in their affection for the product line. They can also (sometimes) veer into apologists for the company, although folks have been pretty circumspect on this forum.

Those that are interested in bashing or pushing their point of view repeatedly to the exclusion of others are (IMHO) not doing any of us a service, much less themselves. Like someone said, imagine saying what you wrote on the 'net to someone's face: is that how you want it to be heard? While a bit of carnage, or even bloodsport, can be healthy to knock folks off pedestals, done repeatedly its a disservice to the community. 
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Geoff
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« Reply #201 on: May 21, 2013, 03:36:34 PM »
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Two views of the same thing: one is from the consumer viewpoint, the other more aware of the maker's view. Given the small number of units actually made, I consider us just plain old lucky to have the options we have. Imagine if they were all to pack up and go home....

Both views are valid, but in the interest of civilty, its useful to recognize the shortcomings of each: the consumer viewpoint wonders why these companies don't adjust more rapidly with the times, and meet possibly emerging markets, discount to raise market share, and provide what seem to be reasonable conveniences. The "makers view" recognizes the limited support capabilities of these smaller companies, the important role of a dealership struggle, and frankly put, will accept some deficiencies in their affection for the product line. They can also (sometimes) veer into apologists for the company, although folks have been pretty circumspect on this forum.

Those that are interested in bashing or pushing their point of view repeatedly to the exclusion of others are (IMHO) not doing any of us a service, much less themselves. Like someone said, imagine saying what you wrote on the 'net to someone's face: is that how you want it to be heard? While a bit of carnage, or even bloodsport, can be healthy to knock folks off pedestals, done repeatedly its a disservice to the community. 

Yes.
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #202 on: May 21, 2013, 03:46:10 PM »
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Two views of the same thing: one is from the consumer viewpoint, the other more aware of the maker's view. Given the small number of units actually made, I consider us just plain old lucky to have the options we have. Imagine if they were all to pack up and go home....

Both views are valid, but in the interest of civilty, its useful to recognize the shortcomings of each: the consumer viewpoint wonders why these companies don't adjust more rapidly with the times, and meet possibly emerging markets, discount to raise market share, and provide what seem to be reasonable conveniences. The "makers view" recognizes the limited support capabilities of these smaller companies, the important role of a dealership struggle, and frankly put, will accept some deficiencies in their affection for the product line. They can also (sometimes) veer into apologists for the company, although folks have been pretty circumspect on this forum.

Those that are interested in bashing or pushing their point of view repeatedly to the exclusion of others are (IMHO) not doing any of us a service, much less themselves. Like someone said, imagine saying what you wrote on the 'net to someone's face: is that how you want it to be heard? While a bit of carnage, or even bloodsport, can be healthy to knock folks off pedestals, done repeatedly its a disservice to the community. 
Yes 2
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #203 on: May 21, 2013, 05:00:10 PM »
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yes 3
Well put Geoff and thanks!
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torger
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« Reply #204 on: May 22, 2013, 01:42:47 AM »
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Two views of the same thing:

Well put. I have a principle to not participate in quarrels or make personal attacks regardless. If it gets too ugly, I just walk away, or start talking about something else Smiley.

They're selling a very very expensive product. With that comes a huge responsibility which should not be taken lightly. If a customer gets support issues with that kind of money involved there's a high risk that the customer becomes pretty aggressive.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #205 on: May 22, 2013, 01:59:31 AM »
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Hi,

I got the impression that Hasselblad is going a different route. In Sweden it seems that entry level Hasselblads are available at decent prices. I guess that Hasselblad sort of goes for value for the price, while Phase one is more moving to exclusivity, at least that was part of the impression I got from the interview with P1 CEO here on LuLa.

Now, it seems Phase One is doing well. Hasselblad, I don't have the slightest idea.

Best regards
Erik


Well put. I have a principle to not participate in quarrels or make personal attacks regardless. If it gets too ugly, I just walk away, or start talking about something else Smiley.

They're selling a very very expensive product. With that comes a huge responsibility which should not be taken lightly. If a customer gets support issues with that kind of money involved there's a high risk that the customer becomes pretty aggressive.
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gerald.d
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« Reply #206 on: May 22, 2013, 02:19:48 AM »
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Somebody express his-her opinions one 2 or 3 time and that's it. We know what the person thinks, we got the points. What's the need of more and more of the same?

If you actually take the time to think about this, the answer is obvious. And once you realise what the answer is, you'll view this forum and the way people interact with it in a totally different way.

The answer is this:

1. Many different people come here and ask the same questions again and again.
2. Pretty much the same individuals provide answers to those questions. And of course, they're going to be the same answers from the same individuals. Again and again.

The problem, is that there are many people here who read everything. The regulars. They read the same questions - from different people each time - and then they go on to see the same people (such as Fred) giving answers they've seen time and time again, with the same opinions and evidence that they're totally fed up with reading.

But you know what? You already knowing Fred's opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, is totally irrelevant. It's not your problem. You're not the one asking the question.

It wasn't a regular who asked the question. That guy who comes in here and asks "Choosing a mfd platform, please help" is going to get Doug telling him to work with a dealer, he's going to get Fred saying check out the Fuji GX680, and he's going to get people like geesbert coming out with crap such as "I knew it was time for that crotch shot again!" when Fred posts the same sample images.

What this forum doesn't need is the same old usual suspects then piling in whinging and moaning about "oh god, not that bloody shot again", "not the same old crap from Fred about his trials and tribulations with the Phase One body", "oh christ it's the bloody GX680" and to be perfectly frank, not my "oh FFS there goes Doug yet again trying to get a sale".

Because when those people do that, the thread descends into the all too frequent risible mess.

Once you appreciate that different people come here and ask the same questions over and over again, then hopefully you'll appreciate that those people deserve to get a rounded set of views and opinions. And they deserve to get a rounded set of views and opinions without the regulars piling in and having the same old fight between themselves over and over again.

So how about this.

Next time someone comes into this forum to ask for some advice, how about we help them out without going "oh god not that shit again" and without taking potshots at individuals simply because we're bored of what they have to say, or because we already know what their opinions are? The OP clearly hasn't seen it all before, because if they had, they wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

Is it really that difficult?

If you don't want to see Fred's advice to someone who is asking a question that has already been answered countless times before, why on Earth do you even bother to read the thread?
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torger
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« Reply #207 on: May 22, 2013, 02:32:50 AM »
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If you actually take the time to think about this, the answer is obvious.

*like* Smiley, I could not have said it better myself. Topics repeat themselves, unavoidable. I too like to help people out with the things I've learnt so far so I'm too guilty of repeating myself.
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Martin Ranger
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« Reply #208 on: May 22, 2013, 04:02:02 AM »
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Next time someone comes into this forum to ask for some advice, how about we help them out without going "oh god not that shit again" and without taking potshots at individuals simply because we're bored of what they have to say, or because we already know what their opinions are? The OP clearly hasn't seen it all before, because if they had, they wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

Is it really that difficult?

If you don't want to see Fred's advice to someone who is asking a question that has already been answered countless times before, why on Earth do you even bother to read the thread?

Well said, Gerald.
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Martin Ranger
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lowep
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« Reply #209 on: May 22, 2013, 04:34:17 AM »
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maybe it would be good to shift this discussion about who should do and say what to the coffee corner so the rest of us can continue the discussion about equipment techniques > medium format /film /digital backs - and large sensor photography.
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yaya
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« Reply #210 on: May 22, 2013, 05:02:20 AM »
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maybe it would be good to shift this discussion about who should do and say what to the coffee corner so the rest of us can continue the discussion about equipment techniques > medium format /film /digital backs - and large sensor photography.

+1

And a note to Gerald; Peter started this thread and called it "Worldwide medium format market" and not "buying MF, which way to go" but unfortunately it took no more than 6 posts for a certain individual to go on the attack and drive this (potentially interesting) discussion south. 11 pages later nobody even remembers what the topic was and it is all about fighting eachother's corner...

The search facility on this forum is quite good and as a general advice to newcomers I would recommend spending some time searching: They can have their answers there and can also learn to know what the regulars are like, who talks from experience, who talks from google and who just talks...

Peace

Yair
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KLaban
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« Reply #211 on: May 22, 2013, 05:12:31 AM »
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maybe it would be good to shift this discussion about who should do and say what to the coffee corner...

Now there's an idea. The Coffee Corner is a war zone complete with its own mafia bosses so it isn't as if the shift would do any further harm.
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gerald.d
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« Reply #212 on: May 22, 2013, 05:37:32 AM »
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And a note to Gerald;

Total non sequitur.

I was responding to a specific comment made by someone else on page 10.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

But thanks for taking the time out of your day to illustrate the point I was making perfectly.
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jsch
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« Reply #213 on: May 22, 2013, 08:15:21 AM »
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...
The answer is this:

1. Many different people come here and ask the same questions again and again.
2. Pretty much the same individuals provide answers to those questions. And of course, they're going to be the same answers from the same individuals. Again and again.

...


That sounds familiar. I have an opposite experience with questions all the time. I'm the one who is asking always the same questions in slight variations. And I got the answers from different people which are similar all the time.

1. The questions:
a) How are you?
b) Do you have time for a coffee?
c) Can I have your number?
d) Would you like to come to my apartment to see my stamp collection?

2. The answers to:
a) Fine, thank you.
b) Yes (20%), No (80%).
c) Yes (10%, but in half the cases I get a fake number), No (90 %).
d) ...

So I work hard for the "yea" but most often there is a "nay".

BTW, the possibility to post questions in this and other forums really did help to learn about digital photography. But from a practical point of view you have to test things for your own. Do they work for you or not. A few years ago I considered to buy a digital mf system. I read the questions of others, read the answers, did some tests (and this forum helped a lot to understand what I had to look for). Finally decided against mf digital. I stayed with digital full frame Canons, invested in light and went back to lf film for a lot of my work (8x10 and 5x7).

Thank you and good luck if you ask somebody something. It is your fault if you don't own a stamp collection.

Best,
Johannes
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 08:18:16 AM by jsch » Logged
Graham Welland
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« Reply #214 on: May 23, 2013, 09:30:01 PM »
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I had a stamp collection a long time ago but I transitioned to etchings ...  Tongue
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Graham
Rob C
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« Reply #215 on: May 24, 2013, 03:10:26 AM »
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I had a stamp collection a long time ago but I transitioned to etchings ...  Tongue



I made myself a website and now nobody comes to the apartment.

That's called freedom; you know, just another word for nothing left to lose.

;-)

Rob C
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Rob C
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« Reply #216 on: May 24, 2013, 05:22:25 AM »
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Now there's an idea. The Coffee Corner is a war zone complete with its own mafia bosses so it isn't as if the shift would do any further harm.


Now that's life through blinkers, Keith.

The 'zone' is war, all right, but only of ideas; there is no Capo dei Capi there at all - each opinion is as valid, absurd or as disputed as the next. It's somewhere to stetch the legs - a walk in the park, perhaps? Hopefully, it lets us share a little more than widgets, instruction manuals and how to use them.

I think it's often quite fun. And free!

;-)

Rob C
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #217 on: May 24, 2013, 05:38:50 AM »
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I can see Keith's point though, it's funny that whenever I click on a topic in the coffee corner I find that it's just a long list of empty posts with the label 'you have blocked this user' on each one Cheesy
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KLaban
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« Reply #218 on: May 24, 2013, 07:28:49 AM »
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Now that's life through blinkers, Keith.

Rob, quite possibly, but surely preferable to a virtual life.
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Rob C
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« Reply #219 on: May 24, 2013, 07:31:47 AM »
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Rob, quite possibly, but surely preferable to a virtual life.


Ouch!

Rob C
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