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Author Topic: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...  (Read 58165 times)
Schewe
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« Reply #260 on: May 16, 2013, 01:42:20 AM »
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As an example just for clarity let's say those that stick with CS6 and don't go CC subscription for further upgrades to Photoshop (when upgrading LR that may have a newer Raw Engine) would now require CS6's ACR engine to be upgraded as well or else deal with the duplicated file scenario and any other potential workflow snags in the future with newer versions of LR.

While Photoshop CS6 will get ACR 8.x (which will be able to render LR5 settings as long as the version are matched up) yes, there's always a chance that being out of sync will cause the render in LR behavior...nature of the beast an it's been this way since the beginning of Lightroom. Being new means you need to learn the ropes...
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Rick Popham
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« Reply #261 on: May 16, 2013, 06:08:37 AM »
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I understand that, Jeff. I just didn't know the result was an unwanted automatic duplication of the file.

Is that really a problem?  After all, if you bring the image into Photoshop for adjustments you'll have to save the file anyway -- either as a tiff or a PSD -- in order to keep those changes.  Of course, it doesn't allow you to just back out of Photoshop if you don't like the changes without deleting that TIFF that LR created.

As Jeff said, we have the next little while for things to remain compatible.  If the "Blue Sky" product ever comes to pass, and it's integrated with LR, we probably won't have to worry about stuff like this.

I have a question about the ACR 8 update to CS6.   Granted it won't have the new features of the ACR CC version, but I take it LR 5 WILL have those features.  So will files generated by LR5, using those new features, open without issue in CS6?  
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 06:11:01 AM by Rick Popham » Logged
Manoli
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« Reply #262 on: May 16, 2013, 07:41:43 AM »
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I have a question about the ACR 8 update to CS6.   Granted it won't have the new features of the ACR CC version, but I take it LR 5 WILL have those features.  So will files generated by LR5, using those new features, open without issue in CS6?  

If I've understood correctly, CS6 will be able to open them, read them, save them - but you won't be able to use or adjust the new ACR controls, e.g. radial gradients - not even as smart objects (SO).
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jjj
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« Reply #263 on: May 16, 2013, 10:10:30 AM »
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Photoshop CS2 is still a free download from Adobe's site. Is CS2 too shabby for most people's increasingly insatiable technical needs? Do they really think , for example, their work must require the floating-point 32-bit Color Picker in CS6's CC version? You have your own answers, of course.
I think it's simply a mistake to just look at headline features as that is like deciding how good a camera is by its megapixel count. Wink
Each version of PS is better/easier to use than the previous version in lots of little ways, many of which I [and very likely many others too] found to be more beneficial than some of the whizz-bang features.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 10:17:28 AM by jjj » Logged

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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #264 on: May 16, 2013, 10:37:04 AM »
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While Photoshop CS6 will get ACR 8.x (which will be able to render LR5 settings as long as the version are matched up) yes, there's always a chance that being out of sync will cause the render in LR behavior...nature of the beast an it's been this way since the beginning of Lightroom. Being new means you need to learn the ropes...

What does my being new to Lightroom have anything to do with my pointing out the lack of future proofing Raw engine mismatches when newer Lightroom upgrades come up in the future that won't match CS6 Photoshop's Raw engine?

Are you just side stepping the issue by claiming I don't know what I'm doing? I think I know enough to realize what this has in store for those that stay with CS6 to avoid the CC subscription upgrade path for Photoshop. Don't you?

You seem to be dismissing the REAL issue here with upgrades and Raw engine mismatches calling it the "nature of the beast". Or are you just wiping your hands of it and this is your way of expressing it?
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #265 on: May 16, 2013, 10:50:13 AM »
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Is that really a problem?  After all, if you bring the image into Photoshop for adjustments you'll have to save the file anyway -- either as a tiff or a PSD -- in order to keep those changes.  Of course, it doesn't allow you to just back out of Photoshop if you don't like the changes without deleting that TIFF that LR created.

It is when you don't want to have to keep deleting images you don't want. The way I work in ACR CS3 after editing 3000 Raws is that I often open in Photoshop just to see if I can make improvements as well as print to my Epson inkjet without have to save a duplicate tiff. Saves on hard drive space, organization clutter and reduces potential hard drive fragmentation. The whole point of editing Raw is to save all non-distructive edits to xmp and not have to render a duplicate.

But that's not been my main point here. It's about Adobe offering the perpetual license Lightroom alternative for those that don't want to go the CC subscription route which Photoshop is a part of. When Lightroom is upgraded in the future, in what capacity is CS6 going to become incompatible with newer versions of Lightroom? There will really need to be a separate type Photoshop created that has a perpetual license update to it's Raw engine to avoid incompatibility with Lightroom.

That's my main point! Get it?

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 10:53:58 AM by tlooknbill » Logged
Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #266 on: May 16, 2013, 10:59:44 AM »
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Oh, and just to add. I just bought the Lightroom 4 DVD-ROM off Amazon for $97.77 plus tax/free shipping. I finally get the PV2012 processor and improved sharpening/noise suppression and expanded HDR-ish tone slider algorithms without having to upgrade to CS6. And I get to work in 64 bit processing and open in CS5 without the duplicate file creation even though the LR dialog box warning told me the two Raw engines were different.

See, Adobe's not so bad.
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Schewe
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« Reply #267 on: May 16, 2013, 02:51:26 PM »
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What does my being new to Lightroom have anything to do with my pointing out the lack of future proofing Raw engine mismatches when newer Lightroom upgrades come up in the future that won't match CS6 Photoshop's Raw engine?

Because you've never experienced the mismatch before and don't understand the two basic behaviors. Lightroom can always process it's own raw settings and produce a saved TIFF, PSD or JPEG...how you open those into a pixel editor isn't the issue. Yes, you have a higher degree of integration between LR and Photoshop when the ACR versions are in sync...but it's only the integration that is different...the end result is the same. If ACR and LR are in sync, ACR does the render. If out of sync, LR does the render. In either case, the rendering will match.

And this is the way LR has behaved since version two when the improved integration was added.
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #268 on: May 16, 2013, 03:41:33 PM »
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Because you've never experienced the mismatch before and don't understand the two basic behaviors. Lightroom can always process it's own raw settings and produce a saved TIFF, PSD or JPEG...how you open those into a pixel editor isn't the issue. Yes, you have a higher degree of integration between LR and Photoshop when the ACR versions are in sync...but it's only the integration that is different...the end result is the same. If ACR and LR are in sync, ACR does the render. If out of sync, LR does the render. In either case, the rendering will match.

And this is the way LR has behaved since version two when the improved integration was added.

Knowing that, will the Raw engine mismatch prompt I got from LR4 opening in CS5 PS change the preview in PS from the 1:1 preview rendering in LR? Why didn't I get a tiff copy of the Raw going into CS5 from LR4 if the engines are different? CS5 PS doesn't have PV2012 ACR which is what I invoked in LR4. When opening in CS5 will I get the PV2012 rendering or CS5's ACR PV2010 or whatever it's set to?


Good grief, with such complexity I see why Adobe went CC subscription which I'm assuming utilizes this synching of apps approach. All those apps in the cloud probably must be a hairball of interconnected processes and workflows that need constant tending to when something changes and other apps don't hear about it.

So I'ld venture to guess if someone didn't know about the tiff dupe when Raw engines don't match and ran a batch process action in Photoshop out of LR4 (if that could be done) that there would most likely be a bunch of dupe tiffs in LR's catalog library. If that's the case then a bunch of 16bit 18MP Tiffs as a result of batch processing like this would really eat up a lot of hard drive real estate real fast.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:51:05 PM by tlooknbill » Logged
Schewe
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« Reply #269 on: May 16, 2013, 04:22:18 PM »
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Knowing that, will the Raw engine mismatch prompt I got from LR4 opening in CS5 PS change the preview in PS from the 1:1 preview rendering in LR? Why didn't I get a tiff copy of the Raw going into CS5 from LR4 if the engines are different? CS5 PS doesn't have PV2012 ACR which is what I invoked in LR4. When opening in CS5 will I get the PV2012 rendering or CS5's ACR PV2010 or whatever it's set to?

I don't really understand the questions...when you opened in Photoshop CS5 from LR4, you should have gotten a prompt and you should have selected the option to have Lightroom render the file...did you?

If so, LR will have processed the image and saved a TIFF with a -Edit in the name and opened it in Photoshop, did it?

If so, ACR in Photoshop CS5 had nothing to do with rendering the image, you got whatever you set your LR4 parameters to.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #270 on: May 16, 2013, 04:31:51 PM »
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Jeff, the misunderstanding might be that there are (at least) two ways of migrating an image from LR>PS. One is what you say: in the Photo Menu>Edit In..... will do what you say. It creates a TIFF or PSD on the fly in the LR catalog, creates a new thumbnail in the LR "ribbon" at the bottom, and the TIFF/PSD in Photoshop, which then opens. You do your edits there, save the file, then revert to LR where everything done in PS is in the new image with all the LR and PS edits preserved. The other way is to simply *Export* an LR file to your hard-drive, in which case it saves a rendered TIFF/PSD according the parameters one sets in prefs for saving them. Then it is a manual process to reimport it into LR if you want to do that. Either route preserves what one has done in both directions, except that TIFF/PSDs reimported to LR whatever the process are flattened versions because LR doesn't support layers, but the layered versions are preserved in PS if one has saved them. Don't know if this helps "tlook" or confuses things further, or is beside the point, but this is my understanding of how these applications cohere, and I do it daily so I THINK I got it right!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe
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« Reply #271 on: May 16, 2013, 04:34:41 PM »
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Then it is a manual process to reimport it into LR if you want to do that. Either route preserves what one has done in both directions, except that TIFF/PSDs reimported to LR whatever the process are flattened versions because LR doesn't support layers, but the layered versions are preserved in PS if one has saved them. Don't know if this helps "tlook" or confuses things further, or is beside the point, but this is my understanding of how these applications cohere, and I do it daily so I THINK I got it right!

Well, except for the fact that when exporting, you can have LR auto add the exported images back into the catalog...so you don't HAVE to manually import the exported files :~)
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #272 on: May 16, 2013, 04:46:53 PM »
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Ah, neat. Wouldn't have missed it 'cause I always do the "Edit In...." route.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #273 on: May 16, 2013, 05:06:26 PM »
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I appreciate the time you both took to explain this. I'll just have to sort it out examining the preview differences viewed in CS5. I've been trying to figure out why one Raw image in the folder of jpegs/Raws I've been working from in LR isn't showing up.

Also I've been sort of panicking, and a bit in a funk over this trying to find the CS6 upgrade disc online only to find the CS6 download version on Adobe's website and not really thrilled at paying an additional $199 after I just bought LR4 just to resolve this pesky workflow snag with Raw engine mismatches just to get PV2012.

I remember reading about this copied file issue about a year ago during the upgrade skip over path discussions at Adobe forums or maybe here and decided I didn't want to get into that and plumb forgot about it and went for the LR4 purchase. DOH!

I've been so used to opening from CS3 Bridge into ACR 4.6, edit and open in Photoshop CS3 and cancel out if I don't like the edits or need to print. It's so simple and fast. It's just one damn thing after another.

This is why I don't upgrade this much because of all this complexity. It's draining.
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SeanA
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« Reply #274 on: May 16, 2013, 05:20:49 PM »
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Layers, layer blend modes and real masking and selection tools so the thousands of hours and dollars I have invested in creating my fine art workflow won't go to waste. 

I woulds rather it all be in 1 program if possible, wasn't lightroom created modular for just this reason, just add Add a photohsop/pixel/layers based module and i will be a happy camper.

Is it just me or do having all those adjustment brush dots drive you crazy.  layers with selections, masks(clipping masks too) and blend modes is just a better more accurate easier way to work in a non destructive way.


Just my 2 cents.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #275 on: May 16, 2013, 05:39:14 PM »
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I appreciate the time you both took to explain this. I'll just have to sort it out examining the preview differences viewed in CS5. I've been trying to figure out why one Raw image in the folder of jpegs/Raws I've been working from in LR isn't showing up.

Also I've been sort of panicking, and a bit in a funk over this trying to find the CS6 upgrade disc online only to find the CS6 download version on Adobe's website and not really thrilled at paying an additional $199 after I just bought LR4 just to resolve this pesky workflow snag with Raw engine mismatches just to get PV2012.

I remember reading about this copied file issue about a year ago during the upgrade skip over path discussions at Adobe forums or maybe here and decided I didn't want to get into that and plumb forgot about it and went for the LR4 purchase. DOH!

I've been so used to opening from CS3 Bridge into ACR 4.6, edit and open in Photoshop CS3 and cancel out if I don't like the edits or need to print. It's so simple and fast. It's just one damn thing after another.

This is why I don't upgrade this much because of all this complexity. It's draining.

Tim, there's no question that PV2012 is a considerable improvement on PV2010 and earlier. So even if you were not a customer for PS at all, just using LR for all your image editing, moving to PV2012 was a seriously good idea. *Sometimes* there are upgrades that are just a damn good improvement and make sense, and make it worthwhile mastering the transitional bumps. You can of course update all your raw files from PV2010 to PV2012 automatically, but the general advice is not to do that, because there can be unexpecetd appearance changes to various images you may not like. OK, so now that you have a version of LR/ACR that works in PV2012, take advantage of all it can offer you - you'll be making fewer trips to PS; but when you need to go there, we've just finsihed discussing the modalities.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #276 on: May 16, 2013, 05:49:56 PM »
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I don't really understand the questions...when you opened in Photoshop CS5 from LR4, you should have gotten a prompt and you should have selected the option to have Lightroom render the file...did you?

If so, LR will have processed the image and saved a TIFF with a -Edit in the name and opened it in Photoshop, did it?

If so, ACR in Photoshop CS5 had nothing to do with rendering the image, you got whatever you set your LR4 parameters to.

To get back to this, see the screengrab of the LR Raw Engine mismatch warning and what I got. I'm using LR4.4 downloaded from Adobe's website. Can't update CS5's Photoshop Raw plug-in as suggested so I'm stuck with this issue.

Mark, there's no question that PV2012 is a huge improvement in 100% previews of rendered pixel detail and slider tonality dynamics. I'm just thinking I should've went with CS6 instead.

I'm loving LR's collapsing interface arrows and fast zoom in's holding down the magnifying glass cursor on top of a lot of other things I'm discovering that are going to take getting used to.

Now I just got to figure out a way to turn off CS5's tabbed file stacking of multiple images opened from LR.

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madmanchan
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« Reply #277 on: May 16, 2013, 06:51:44 PM »
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Tim, in short you need a compatible version of ACR to provide compatible renderings when using Lightroom's "Edit in Photoshop" feature.  That's because Lightroom actually uses the Camera Raw plug-in to render the image when opening that image into Photoshop.  (This is also the only case where Lightroom uses the ACR plug-in.  In all other cases when rendering pictures, Lightroom does the processing itself.) 

If you have Lightroom 4.4, for rendering compatibility with "Edit in Photoshop" you need Camera Raw 7.4.  That means you need CS6. 
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #278 on: May 16, 2013, 07:33:05 PM »
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Tim, in short you need a compatible version of ACR to provide compatible renderings when using Lightroom's "Edit in Photoshop" feature.  That's because Lightroom actually uses the Camera Raw plug-in to render the image when opening that image into Photoshop.  (This is also the only case where Lightroom uses the ACR plug-in.  In all other cases when rendering pictures, Lightroom does the processing itself.)  

If you have Lightroom 4.4, for rendering compatibility with "Edit in Photoshop" you need Camera Raw 7.4.  That means you need CS6.  

Thanks for the confirmation, Eric.

Since I only tried this on one image seeing I didn't want to complicate libraries, catalogs, preview/edit caching schemes between Bridge and LR (CS3 Bridge is still showing the other duplicate tiff I tossed in LR "ribbon" display in a previous session testing this yesterday-need to update Bridge's cache for that folder), I didn't see a difference between the previews generated by CS5 engine and LR's but then I only turned on PV2012 and did a bit of sharpening in LR.


I didn't even save the changes to an xmp file like I do with CS3 Bridge/ACR and I was working in the Develop module clicking on the tiny thumbnail in the bottom horizontal "ribbon" display. I realize LR is implementing thumbnail generation differently from CS3 Bridge, so I have to keep in mind if what I'm clicking on and deleting/editing is a real file or just a place holder jpeg in the "ribbon". Library acts more like Bridge and Develop acts more like ACR but with a lot more and much better interface extras.

In hypothetical "Blue Sky" Photoshop, can this Raw engine mismatch between LR/Photoshop be stopped, fixed or eliminated without upgrading two apps?

Couldn't I just toss CS5's Adobe Camera Raw plug-in? That sounds like a better idea.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 07:35:54 PM by tlooknbill » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #279 on: May 16, 2013, 07:45:40 PM »
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Tim, in short you need a compatible version of ACR to provide compatible renderings when using Lightroom's "Edit in Photoshop" feature.  That's because Lightroom actually uses the Camera Raw plug-in to render the image when opening that image into Photoshop.  (This is also the only case where Lightroom uses the ACR plug-in.  In all other cases when rendering pictures, Lightroom does the processing itself.) 

If you have Lightroom 4.4, for rendering compatibility with "Edit in Photoshop" you need Camera Raw 7.4.  That means you need CS6. 

Eric, I'm interested to drill down on this one for a moment. PSCS5 accommodates ACR 6.7, which does have PV2012. So if I were to send a raw file from LR 4.4 to PSCS5 using "Edit In.....", I am getting the benefit of PV2012 in that PS rendition, aren't I? Visually, when I'v e tested, it seems so. Where exactly does the compatibility problem arise between LR 4.4 and PSCS5 using ACR 6.7? I also have CS6 so personally I could do it either way, but for those who don't, just wondering.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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