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Author Topic: When will Canons answer to D800e come?  (Read 7683 times)
henrikfoto
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« on: May 11, 2013, 05:38:50 PM »
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Any rumors?
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leeonmaui
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 05:47:25 PM »
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who cares!
you can check on "canon Rumors" they always publish stuff like that...
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Paul2660
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 05:49:01 PM »
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Late 3rd and most of 4th quarter 2012 the rumor was the 3Dx somewhere between 30 and 40mp full frame.   Many reported seeing it in the field on tests.  

Paul Caldwell
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 06:47:13 PM »
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Perhaps if you post this in one of the other forums, you might get an answer. This is after all for MFD. I doubt Canon will get into MFD. They will simply stick to 35mm.
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sgilbert
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2013, 08:44:30 PM »
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"This is after all for MFD."   Smiley
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Emilmedia
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 09:38:49 AM »
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Well it's kind of mf related.  And none of the other forums are quite so active. With Canon I'm not going for more MP as a main wish. Dynamic range and better AF.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 09:49:50 AM »
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Wait and see...


Any rumors?
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FredBGG
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 12:21:02 PM »
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Well it's kind of mf related.  And none of the other forums are quite so active. With Canon I'm not going for more MP as a main wish. Dynamic range and better AF.

While it is a different discussion category for some it is quite a related subject especially with the direction Canon is taking.
With the 5DII to 5DIII udgrade Canon chose to beef up autofocus and add uncompressed video (though they disabled it at first
to not encroach on their video products. They chose to stay with a 22MP sensor as they felt the were well positioned and that 22MP exceeds what most people need. This has some relavance to low end MF.

I asked a Canon employee (through an interpreter) why the new 24-70 zoom was so expensive and if they were not pricing themselves
out of the market. His answer was that it's more about meeting the quality of their new sensor that will have nothing to do with current designs.
He also added that motion picture products were driving this move too.

It's what they are up to now that has more relavance. Canon is working on three layer sensor technology.
IT is doing so both for the photo field and in particular the video field.
While this is still different from MF it will take the quality level of Canon much higher with larger photosites for the same resolution,
no color moire and significantly better Black and white conversion of certain subjects. Photosites would actually be as large as or larger than some MF backs.
Putting such a sensor behind the better Canon lenses as well as Canon's excellent TS lenses makes for a very compelling alternative or sidekick to
MF dslr and some applications of tech cameras.

Due to the low resolution of motion cine footage and the difficulty of retouching in post moire is a big issue.
Due to the significantly higher prices that motion picture cameras can be sold at this is driving the next moves
at both Nikon/Sony as well as Canon.

Canon and Sony/Nikon's next move in sensors will be quite interesting.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 02:10:39 PM »
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It's what they are up to now that has more relavance. Canon is working on three layer sensor technology.
IT is doing so both for the photo field and in particular the video field.
While this is still different from MF it will take the quality level of Canon much higher with larger photosites for the same resolution,
no color moire and significantly better Black and white conversion of certain subjects. Photosites would actually be as large as or larger than some MF backs.
Putting such a sensor behind the better Canon lenses as well as Canon's excellent TS lenses makes for a very compelling alternative or sidekick to MF dslr and some applications of tech cameras.

Due to the low resolution of motion cine footage and the difficulty of retouching in post moire is a big issue.
Due to the significantly higher prices that motion picture cameras can be sold at this is driving the next moves
at both Nikon/Sony as well as Canon.

Canon and Sony/Nikon's next move in sensors will be quite interesting.

So you're predicting that the next flagship camera will use Fovean or similar layer-transparent non-Bayer sensor?

I love the confidence. Though my bet would be 10:1 against this possibilty.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 06:48:51 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 03:25:58 PM »
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....... that the next flagship camera will use Fovean or similar layer-transparent non-Bayer sensor?

I love the confidence. Though my bet would be 10:1 against this possibilty.

Where did I say that? However your knee jerk defensive action says a lot.....

I'm not predicting anything in particular, but history shows that Canon and Nikon tend to jump ahead of each  other in turns.

Both Canon and Nikon are getting heavily involved in  Motion imaging where 3 layer sensors are far more important. Both have opened offices in the heart of Hollywood.

Both Canon and Sony have files multilayer sensor patents, and neither are based on the Sigma sensor.





Both these patents were files quite a time ago and both could be getting ripe for going into production.

The patents can be looked up.

Sony has been investing billions in it's sensor manufacturing facilities.

Stacked C-mos with on board processing combined with 3 layer non bayer array offer great IQ promise as well as speed that the Sigma sensor does not offer.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:52:58 AM by FredBGG » Logged
henrikfoto
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 03:54:53 PM »
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Doug is very fast to jump on Fred.
Best friends?
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RVB
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2013, 03:58:46 PM »
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Anything written about the new high res canon will be just a rumor,nothing more but most of the rumors suggest a completely new sensor fabrication process and the body will be released in 2014.. A pal of mine has worked in canon for 20yrs and he thinks this "rumor" is on the money...
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eronald
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 04:01:10 PM »
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My younger self knew about designing ICs.

It's a technology, it moves by small steps.

Brand C and N could buy into Sigma's technology, but if they want to roll their own they will have to pay their dues and cycle it a couple of times, give it decent exposure to the real world, before baby gets a job he needs to crawl and learn to walk.  

Edmund

Where did I say that? However your knee jerk defensive action says a lot.....

I'm not predicting anything in particular, but history shows that Canon and Nikon tend to jump ahead of each  other in turns.

Both Canon and Nikon are getting heavily involved in  Motion imaging where 3 layer sensors are far more important. Both have opened offices in the heart of Hollywood.

Both Canon and Sony have files multilayer sensor patents, and neither are based on the Sigma sensor.



[img]http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011_129785_fig01.png/img]

Both these patents were files quite a time ago and both could be getting ripe for going into production.

The patents can be looked up.

Sony has been investing billions in it's sensor manufacturing facilities.

Stacked C-mos with on board processing combined with 3 layer non bayer array offer great IQ promise as well as speed that the Sigma sensor does not offer.


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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 08:58:59 PM »
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I think it's true that Canon will focus a lot of it's effort in the digital video / cinema field.

If I were to speculate I think a LOT of the advancement is going to be in in-camera sensor data processing. 4k video is going to become the standard and i'm sure Canon wants a more affordable 4K camera than their 1Dc offering. 8k video is going to be the new high end. So Canon might offer a camera that does 8k stills (if its a 2:3 sensor then thats about a 40MP camera) with a 4K video mode.

Im pretty sure Bayer sensors are here to stay for a while. We will see continued improvements in debayering algorithms and downsampling for video.

When will the new Canon emerge? I would bet on about 12-18 months.
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K.C.
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 10:03:45 PM »
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Doug is very fast to jump on Fred.
Best friends?

Fred's inherent warmth and open minded attitude tends to foster lots of friendships. Shocked
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torger
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2013, 12:43:27 AM »
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My guess is that Canon will continue to get stronger in video, but will not in near-term manage to get the same still image quality as the Sony sensors. Being great at video and high ISO is not the same as being great at base ISO still images, which is where the MF interest resides. I don't think the first high megapixel camera, which will come eventually, will for example have as good dynamic range as the D800. Canon has recently produced sensors with new technology, like in their 6D and their entry-level EOS-700D, and nothing in those sensors indicate that Canon is able to compete concerning base ISO image quality. In fact, they show quite mediocre quality, that's why MF salespersons like to use Canon as the example of what DSLRs can do in terms of base ISO image quality. It's nicer to compare an IQ160 with a 5Dmk3 than a D800E Smiley

My DSLR system is a Canon, and I do hope to see better base ISO image quality eventually, but I don't think it will happen for some years to come. I hope to be proven wrong though.
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bcooter
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2013, 02:19:15 AM »
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My guess is that Canon will continue to get stronger in video, but will not in near-term m


Since this section has been the d800 forum for some time, I guess it's fitting that it's now the Canon forum.  Well why not add the 4/3's forum to the heading.

I'm serious.

Here's the thing about all of these format discussions.

Everybody talks about cameras like what was done before is the standard we are working towards. 

Kind of like film cameras that shoot digital.   

Not what we could do in the future, or better put, not what we could do that I just can't or haven't been able to shoot before.

Kind of like we're back 10 years ago when everybody switched from digital to film and kept arguing that one brand was better than the other.

My 1dx for stills focuses very well, is very sharp, produces a good file (not great but good), has great solid tethering with ethernet but honestly there is very little I do with it today I didn't do with my original 1ds a long time ago.

By that I don't mean more megapixels or face detection, or faster tethering, or Nikon is better than Phase, Phase is better than Leica, but real useful change.

Somewhere on another thread someone said 35mm has come leaps and bounds.  Well I'm not too sure.  Yes, autofocus is better, color on some cameras easier to manage, frame rates a little faster, depending on camera, lcds a whole lot better, but regardless these are mostly  improvements on platforms from 10 years ago.

If you tether the nikon the lcd blanks out, run an hdmi out cord to it to record  and you have to remove the cf card, try to autofocus shooting motion and you better be locked down shooting the washington monument. 

Canon isn't much different, though they did come out with a line of motion cameras, but still in the film camera mindset.  Buy PL or Canon mounts but there not interchangeable.  Try to get a real 4:2:2 prorezz file out of them ready for real world proxy edit, or for that matter just real world edit and you have to spend hours transcoding.

I just think all of this is old think and protecting territory.

If you want to see real camera innovation look at the two latest 4/3's cameras from Panasonic and Olympus.  Unlike their big brothers they actually autofocus shooting motion and do it at exactly what your aiming at.   In fact the panasonic with just a touch of the screen will rack focus in a beautiful smooth style.

The Panasonic for motion imagery in every tests comes out inches away from the more costly RED and Arri.   It has real i.s. lenses, touch screen focus, articulating screens, sound in and out and sells for about the price of one good Nikon Lens.

The Olympus may be small, but the handing is first rate, the mbps is low but the in camera stabilization looks like a 10 year steadicam operator was working it and it shoots a very nice still file in 4:2, 2:3 or 16x9 format with one of the best right angle grips of any camera maker.

They both focus fast, track well, (not perfect but well) and are an inch away from being as good as any Nikon or Canon still camera, the panasonic better than most digital cinema cameras except the RED, Arri and Sony F35 and damn close to those if handled properly.

For the price of one of my 1dx bodies, I can buy one of these 4/s's systems with a complete lens set, (actually less priced).  For the price of one top grade medium format still system, or RED motion system, I can buy two cases of these cameras.

I'm not pushing any camera, because I own RED's Nikons, Phase, Canons, Panasonic, Sony's and a Leica.  I'm just saying if I take every innovation from all of my dedicated professional cameras and combine them, they still don't meet the same usefulness of the Pany or Olympus, except in actual file detail and honestly in real world use, they 4/3's are getting close for most media.

Don't misunderstand I enjoy my Phase backs, kind of enjoy the Canon 1dxes, like the Leica and find the RED's simply amazing for the quality they produce at the price, but none of them combined has the real world use of the two 4/3's cameras I've mentioned.

Also don't misunderstand me.  I don't think the sky is falling, because it's not.  It's just our industry has changed, which is not surprising as the professional making images for money business is only a few generations old so change is a given.

And I'm not the only one to notice it.  In the last 10 days I've been in two camera stores.  One mega store on the coast, on smaller store in the middle of the country.

At the megastore the line is two deep around the hybrid and motion camera accessory area.   Zacuto products of every type are flying out the door.  At the smaller store, that two years ago ONLY sold Canons, Nikons and a few medium formats, they now have about 35% of their shelf space dedicated to sliders, friction heads, senihauser mics, radio lavs, hdmi screens and every kind of gizmos, wire and battery charger available.  They're both selling the little Panasonic and Olympus cameras as fast as they come in.

Maybe they're selling the 4/3 cameras  to cat photographers, maybe this is just a straw poll and not worth mentioning, but if I was in the camera making biz, I'd look around and decide what my next move would be and it wouldn't be a still camera with some half baked movie function feature.  It's will be a world beater at the lowest price possible, and/or if price is jacked high, they would do things that none of us can dream of.

Can you imagine the still quality of a Phase of Hasselblad, the iso of a 1dx, the true adjustable autofocus of touch screen, the sound characteristics of a Sony all with weatherproof i.s.?

IMO

BC

(sorry about the 4/3's thing . . .  but it seems everything here is now fair game).

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torger
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2013, 03:40:27 AM »
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I don't think 4/3 really has the potential currently. At some point sensor size becomes too small to capture enough photons to be up there. A 24x36mm sensor on the other hand reaches sufficiently high (in my opinion). This could change with future sensor technology (deeper wells in smaller pixels), but we're not seeing it today. So in terms of base ISO image quality 4/3 cannot compete the same way as a full-frame DSLR can. Therefore I follow DSLR developments with great excitement, but not so interested in smaller formats.

Lens quality is another issue, with smaller formats manufacturing precision needs to be higher to crank in the same amount of resolution over the frame. It seems like MFD has the edge here currently, and I'm not so sure that it can change in the near-term. Resolution is not all, but as a tech camera shooter high resolution and sharp distortion-free lenses capable of movements is indeed a main attraction.

I think my DSLR system is much closer to compete with my MF system for landscape photography than any 4/3 system can, and I find developments in the DSLR world more interesting in relation to my MF system than the smaller formats. Say if Canon would come out with a 40 megapixel camera with D800E's pixel quality, release new versions of the TS-E 45 and 90 (also rumoured), and someone makes a good TS at 35mm (why is noone doing that?!), then my Linhof/Leaf system would get a very very tough competitor in terms of my shooting style (hiking landscape photography). Image quality is not the sole parameter for me, also price, compositional flexibility, ease of use and how fun it is to use is important to me.

What I think will save me in MFD anyway is resolution (and the fun of using something different!). I think the sweetpoint is 50-60 sharp megapixels, and I don't really see any DSLR lenses (even the good ones) fully capable of that.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 03:43:54 AM by torger » Logged
MrSmith
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2013, 04:23:34 AM »
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Cooter do you have your own physio/chiropractor for your teams lower back issues?

One thing I don't miss about MFD is the volume of gear to move around. Now it's all in a roller case with elinchrom rangers and no back-ache.
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jerome_m
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2013, 06:43:53 AM »
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If you want to see real camera innovation look at the two latest 4/3's cameras from Panasonic and Olympus.  Unlike their big brothers they actually autofocus shooting motion and do it at exactly what your aiming at.   In fact the panasonic with just a touch of the screen will rack focus in a beautiful smooth style.

Just as a side note: home camcorders have had working AF for the past 15 years. I should be easier with smaller sensors: there is more DOF and the lens is smaller, meaning there is less mass to move around. It should therefore not be surprising that 4/3, which has the smaller sensor, also has the best AF.


And I'm not the only one to notice it.  In the last 10 days I've been in two camera stores.  One mega store on the coast, on smaller store in the middle of the country.

At the megastore the line is two deep around the hybrid and motion camera accessory area. Zacuto products of every type are flying out the door.  At the smaller store, that two years ago ONLY sold Canons, Nikons and a few medium formats, they now have about 35% of their shelf space dedicated to sliders, friction heads, senihauser mics, radio lavs, hdmi screens and every kind of gizmos, wire and battery charger available.  They're both selling the little Panasonic and Olympus cameras as fast as they come in.

I can confirm that the same is true where I live (Germany). Not only the stores, but I regularly meet young film crews and they have been using DSLRs, usually Canon 5D2, for the past years as well. TV crews still use shoulder worn camcorders, though. Extensive film crews (the one who came with 4 lorries and a 180 KW diesel generator in my home street) use pro video cams on a dolly.

Large sensor - low budget moviemaking appears to be all the rage at the moment indeed. But I am not sure what it means for photographers: photography and movies are very different mediums with very different needs.

Besides, this is only one aspect of the change affecting photography. The other end is that there are more pictures taken on an iPhone than on any other camera, that the main photo publisher on the planet is probably Facebook, that, today, Wikipedia published an app allowing users to directly take and upload pictures to document the encyclopedia and that I see tourists filming with a tablet computer all the time.

I still don't know what this has to do with medium format, but photography is certainly changing fast.
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