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Author Topic: When will Canons answer to D800e come?  (Read 8419 times)
yaya
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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2013, 09:09:45 AM »
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I think this image belongs to the weather sealing forum as it shows an example of poor weather sealing on those cases...
Does the manual say if they are coffee resistant?
I mean skinny latte is not exactly coffee but can you imagine what that skinny latte after sitting in the sunshine and then getting poured on your cameras can do...havoc!!!
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bcooter
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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2013, 11:44:05 AM »
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I still don't know what this has to do with medium format, but photography is certainly changing fast.

Nothing.  

That's the point.

On the medium format section all we talk about is Nikons and "use to be's " that wind surf, walk dogs and do pulstating gifs of other people photos.

I just thought we could talk about the smallest format rather than the largest because I'm sure tomorrow we'll be talking about deadly radio waves, how much money Hasselblad makes, or where the boxes of Phase One's lenses are printed.

BTW:  I heard Nikon boxes are printed in Singapore.  OMG, I just can't get my head around that.

Where's the Nikon rep, how much money do they save?

I deserve to know.

IMO

BC

« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:36:08 PM by bcooter » Logged

bcooter
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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 11:53:13 AM »
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I think this image belongs to the weather sealing forum as it shows an example of poor weather sealing on those cases...
Does the manual say if they are coffee resistant?
I mean skinny latte is not exactly coffee but can you imagine what that skinny latte after sitting in the sunshine and then getting poured on your cameras can do...havoc!!!

Yair,

I was walking my dog through the beautiful Swiss Alps, watching timber wolves frolic, bonding with nature and thinking of swimming nude, when I thought . . .

Isn't it funny about all this camera talk on innovation?

Leaf had wifi, touch screens 10 years ago.  Leaf is the only digital maker that actually joined up with a new camera system, added rotating sensors and tilt screens.

I can't imagine where Leaf would have gone, had not wall street shot dice with our savings and Kodak didn't decide that making photography relate products was good business.

I hope the next phase camera was consulted through you guys.



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:00:27 PM by bcooter » Logged

Rob C
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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 12:18:13 PM »
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Cooter, what happened to the trees in the background?

Rob C
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2013, 12:23:40 PM »
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This D bloody 800 is a plague.
It's like a virus that infiltrates
In every possible thread in all
The forums ww.

The only immune entities so far
Are the motion worlds were Nikon is
Completly irrelevant. It's like a niche
Resting room where One still can
Hear the Zen fountain, far far away
From the noise and stressfull ambiances
Of graphic measurements and pixels
Peeping of dpr disciples.

Back into my Nuke nodes fengshui.
 
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KLaban
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2013, 12:26:03 PM »
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I hope the next phase camera was consulted through you guys.

I sure hope so, though I wouldn't hold my breath.

Didn't phase dismiss the sexiest MFD to see the light of day in the form of the Leaf AFi in favour of the dreadful DF?
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KLaban
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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2013, 12:27:59 PM »
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Cooter, what happened to the trees in the background?

That would be the deadly radio waves.
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bcooter
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 12:32:26 PM »
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That would be the deadly radio waves.

Could be, though actually it's what happens when a third assistant shoots a Nikon file (honestly) 3 stops over and I pulled the curves down too quickly.

I fixed it for you Rob.

IMO

BC
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yaya
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« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2013, 12:43:20 PM »
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I fixed it for you Rob.

Now just move that dangerous skinny latte away from the cameras  Wink
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2013, 12:45:43 PM »
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Hi,

My take is that Canon is quite happy. They are pretty good at high ISOs and high ISO may matter a lot more to a lot of customers than low ISO DR. Would dey loose a lot of business to Nikon, or even Sony, they may reconsider the situation.

You have any idea about the percentage of shooters who use tripod, medium aperture and base ISO with MLU? I do, you do, we do? Still we are small part of the market.


Best regards
Erik
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2013, 12:50:37 PM »
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I don't think 4/3 really has the potential currently. At some point sensor size becomes too small to capture enough photons to be up there. A 24x36mm sensor on the other hand reaches sufficiently high (in my opinion). This could change with future sensor technology (deeper wells in smaller pixels), but we're not seeing it today. So in terms of base ISO image quality 4/3 cannot compete the same way as a full-frame DSLR can. Therefore I follow DSLR developments with great excitement, but not so interested in smaller formats.

If you shoot mainly motion, this is not actually the case. In controled light, a GH2 or GH3 smokes litterally any Canikon DSLR,
and in video resolution, resolve more details than some pro camcorders gear like Sony F3.
Only when you start to jump in higher isos the Canon recuperates its advantage of a bigger sensor.
So it's good if you are in the very dark without a proper set. Cheap B series, stuff like that,
or you want a soft funky "kids" look, then Canon is great, Otherwise...
The Pana AF100 is one of the most serious affordable camcorder currently, and vastly used in motion industry. And it's m4/3 mount-sensor.

The m4/3 also allows PL mount without costly camera modification (there is no mirror) and there are cine Zeiss primes with the m4/3 mount,
in fact the m4/3 mount allows the wider range of lenses included some C-mount without vigneting, Angénieux etc etc...

Remember that Red cameras can't compeat either with the current Canon in really high-isos.
And Red One, Epic and Scarlet are far better motion equipment.
(and I would say that to some extend, they are far better still equipment too, except the lack of reso from a still point of view)

m4/3 in motion has a huge potential. Only if they make big mistakes it could become a "dead-end".
But for the moment it's far from being the case. (AF on latest model is simply in another league)

Oups...was it a MF section?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:00:59 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2013, 12:59:59 PM »
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It's like a virus that infiltrates
In every possible thread in all
The forums ww.


Fred2,

I'm sure you've seen all or  parts of the latest Zaguto test where they compare all sorts of motion cameras, from an iphone,  mirrorless, dslrs, smaller formats to the mega expensive Sony's.

The difference between those conversations and here is nobody is trying to prove that any one person or company is wrong.

They allow one team per camera to adjust the lights, shoot the scene and compare and grade the merits of each system.

In other words work in a professional style.

The result is there is no agenda, only learning what really works in the real world and you don't hear much of my camera is better than yours bullshit.

The result is, in the movie world, usually the more you spend on the system the better the results.

There are some exceptions, but the test really isn't designed to prove any camera "wrong" or overpriced, just what every camera will do in regards to certain scenes.

But your right, there is no dee800 in this test.  

The real gems of this is to hear the working dp's interviews.  It's rarely on equipment, mostly on telling the story, how to approach a project.

That's what this section of the  forum could be.

It's not.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:05:45 PM by bcooter » Logged

fredjeang2
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« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »
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Fred,

I'm sure you've seen all or  parts of the latest Zaguto test where they compare all sorts of motion cameras, from an iphone,  mirrorless, dslrs, smaller formats to the mega expensive Sony's.

The difference between those conversations and here is nobody is trying to prove that any one person or company is wrong.

They allow one team per camera to adjust the lights, shoot the scene and compare and grade the merits of each system.

In other words work in a professional style.

The result is there is no agenda, only learning what really works in the real world and you don't hear much of my camera is better than yours bullshit.

The result is, in the movie world, usually the more you spend on the system the better the results.

There are some exceptions, but the test really isn't designed to prove any camera "wrong" or overpriced, just what every camera will do in regards to certain scenes.

But your right, there is no dee800 in this test.  

The real gems of this is to hear the working dp's interviews.  It's rarely on equipment, mostly on telling the story, how to approach a project.

That's what this section of the  forum could be.

It's not.


IMO

BC


Ah? It's been a long time since I haven't opened the Zack website.

I will have a look then. The latest I saw is when a famous cine director (can't remember who it was, it wasn't Scorcese I guess but a big fish) pointed the GH2 as it's prefered look in a blind test...it made a lot of flames within the motion forums.
People were screaming: "what? a GH2 winning the Alexas and Phantoms?...." Because if we, young indie, say that, nobody would care of it, but if it's a Scorcese, then people listen.

But you're right. Not in my intention to offend "still world" here, but I do see a very different attitude in the motion forums like the CC. People are just working,
there is no winner looser, this is better than that etc... but tech questions and tech answers. Generally very very pro. No time for games.
I don't know if that's because motion is way more demanding in terms of time-complexity etc...
but yes, I do see the same as you point. It's a totally different world that I find less infantile, lots lots of respect.
People are busy, they are working, and generaly have long hours of flight in the industry and they know that to become good at something,
one has to spend long time on it, not changing at every update, listening to marketing brands, or new tech that is not ready, because it costs too much to do that.


Now, Lu-La is IMO an incredible source of good content too, and sometimes I also think that it could have a different flavour, more respect between people who are using
different systems etc...but it seems that photography being a more
democratized world, the overall mentality is different and there is a lightness that is not happening in the motion forum I frequent like the Cow or the Avid, or even Red (well red is fanboyism
but incredibly serious in terms of tech content, just leaving the fanboyism aside).
Now, I find that Lu-La has a "human" side that is also welcome and lacking in the highly-specialized motion forums.
But totally agree on what you wrote.

 

« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:33:02 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
MrSmith
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« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2013, 01:51:42 PM »
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"If you shoot mainly motion, this is not actually the case. In controled light, a GH2 or GH3 smokes litterally any Canikon DSLR,"

Didn't Magic lantern change that yesterday?

"That's what this section of the  forum could be."

It's still a good place to sometimes see other working photographers shots in different fields to your(our) own work which is always good to share. It's the "what f-stop did you shoot that at" questions that make me sigh instead of comments about lighting, composition and the elusive 'mood' that differentiates the pro from am.

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fredjeang2
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« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2013, 01:57:16 PM »
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Didn't Magic lantern change that yesterday?

Yes, it did. But as hacks have also been developped for the GH2, and the Panas were, from factory, better motion implemented, the progress done by the Magic Lantern have also been done by the
Pana hackers. The latest hacks are truly amazing, they tranformed the GH2 into an INTRA device with minimum of 150 MB/s stable and much more if you want to. So in fact the gap remained because
there has been intensive hack works done in both case. The Canon has some advantages over the GH2 and vice-versa, but my point was simply to say that m4/3 is far from being a dead-end road.
It's just different and one who work a lot on a system will obtain pro results, Canon, or Panasonic, FF or m4/3 mount.
  
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:01:39 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2013, 02:05:10 PM »
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Fred and Cooter,

Motion is about telling a story.  The gear is a means to an end, not an end in itself.  What matters is the story telling, and any device that helps you tell the story is fair game.  Film people are generally professionals, and professionals just need a device that allows them to tell a story.  Amatuer stills photographers can snap away and amaze their friends and family with over sharpened detail of on a leaf 4 miles away.  No need for story, just a pretty scene they happen upon.  (I'm not taking a piss on landscapers).  
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bcooter
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« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2013, 02:32:13 PM »
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Fred and Cooter,

Motion is about telling a story.  The gear is a means to an end, not an end in itself.  What matters is the story telling, and any device that helps you tell the story is fair game.  Film people are generally professionals, and professionals just need a device that allows them to tell a story.  Amatuer stills photographers can snap away and amaze their friends and family with over sharpened detail of on a leaf 4 miles away.  No need for story, just a pretty scene they happen upon.  (I'm not taking a piss on landscapers).  


T

Your 100% right.

We just shipped a video that received the highest client response in my career.

The client wanted a game changer for their marketing and sales.  A video that would drive the corporation from within.

Our writer took 4 passes at it, we changed concepts 3 times and I could tell we we're losing the client, or at least disappointing the client.

So I did a 14 hour day/night run at it, reviewed every note, every script, every focus group result and rewrote the script, did a scratch voice over myself, pulled stock imagery and from our libraries and cut the video as a moving storyboard or animatic.

The result, it was sold in, only a few lines changed, we went into production and 10 days later delivered.

The response was overwhelming and it will not only be used internally, but used to set the marketing direction for the company for the coming years.

I'm not patting myself on the back, because in all honesty I did this as a hail mary, as nothing else was getting approved, but i learned something big.

Every director, and dp or director/dp, producer should know the script inside and out and push back, question the motivation of each line of the story and how each line can be visualized.

That may sound simple, but for a still photographer that's not how we usually work. 

We usually make things pretty or tell a story in one frame.  With motion, as you say, it's the whole story and the visuals are there to support it, not overwhelm it.

This thought process also carries over to stills.   Rather than just take a shot list and/or layout on face value, to give a story meaning the person behind the camera, or directing the camera has to be fully immersed in the reason they are there in the first place.

I don't know about you, but how many times have you taken a "pretty picture" but in reality it had no story, no reason other than it might show the clothes, the expression or the face.

I've been doing motion for a while and maybe I'm not too smart, but I've finally realized that the story must be understood and must make sense, whether it's stills, motion or multimedia.

Anything else and the viewer just goes to sleep.

Now equipment does play a role because as you know production can be expensive.  I love the RED's, hate the process of supports, flags, sliders, dollys, sound and all the grip and crew that goes with it.

Seriously I am looking at buying a few of the new 4/3's cameras for an upcoming project, not as b cams, not as crash cams, but as a way to get to the story quickly, keep it moving and not flat footed and not use so much equipment that the story is overwhelmed by the technique.

In other words I'd love to see all those cases disappear and instead have three cameras around my neck and one set of led panels.

At least I say that today.

IMO

BC

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fredjeang2
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« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2013, 03:06:15 PM »
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Seriously I am looking at buying a few of the new 4/3's cameras for an upcoming project, not as b cams, not as crash cams, but as a way to get to the story quickly, keep it moving and not flat footed and not use so much equipment that the story is overwhelmed by the technique.

I think, Knowing your style, that you will extract a lot from those micro gear. Size reduction is the future.
On the clients seriousness required, you have already the Reds and all the Peli cases circus to cover the studio image in front of the client, wich is important also, let's face it.
So 1 or 2 extra Cams like the Panas will not destroy the image and more likely add some dynamic high quality imagery that are usable in post for your stories. At least for HD,
and Pana, like Canikon, will come to Raw video soon and 4-5K.

Really, the famous director's comment on the GH2 image output (i remember, it was Francis Ford Coppola) was not taking into consideration that it was a "consummer" tool, the look acheived convinced him.
And the image was projected in proper theater, not on computer screen.
If an experienced director that have spend his life doing feature films, used to watch footage on theater from film age, loved the GH2 look, it tells something.
It's not going of course to replace a Red, but IMO it tells that the cam is very capable.

In fact, the only concern that is to take into consideration, is that is not military built like proper cine gear, and IMO that would be the only reason to prevent top cine crew for using them
for serious stuff because at those costs, failure ain't an option. (but after all, don't they use 5D2 in productions also? and the 5D2 is far from being a tank like the 1d)
But there is a simple way to prevent possible failures on those non-pro cine gear: buy many. At those prices, if one or 2 unit failed, there is always another unit ready.
And none of the GH2 used on set in my experience ever failed. Even days and days of shooting. They don't heat-up like the canons, they handle pretty well the bad treatments despite being "toys".
What really sucks are the audio imput, yes this is the weak point to secure those jack-minijacks, and rain (on the #2, the 3 is sealed).

And Coot, your wheels look like the CIA ones following the president.


 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 03:34:25 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2013, 05:16:34 PM »
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GH3 is a brilliant little video camera. Focus racking, focus tracking and auto focus are really good.
Was already good on the GH2 lenses do have some focus pump though... but for the price they are great.
http://youtu.be/T7hHxDh5OcM

internal codec recording is good and can be hacked to be a bit better. However HDMI out is not 4.2.2
unless there is a hack I don't know about.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2013, 05:39:50 PM »
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internal codec recording is good and can be hacked to be a bit better.
do you know the camera? Did you shoot it?
Internal codec recording of the GH3 is a joke compared to a hacked GH2. 75MBit/s for Intra is simply too low. You end up with I-Frames around 400K. It's okay if you shoot wide open with large out of focus areas (i.e. - most of the image does not require high resolution). But shooting high definition scenes stopped down things look completey different.
Don't get me wrong... for video the GH3 is still much better than any Canon or Nikon I know of ... but a hacked GH2 will smoke the GH3 in terms of "internal codec recording" (your term)... even in 25p (and on the GH2 25p derives from 50i... so it's wrapped... while the GH3 shoots native 25p).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 05:42:32 PM by tho_mas » Logged
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