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Author Topic: Glamour II Gloss and Matte Mix  (Read 2149 times)
rgvsdigitalpimp
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« on: June 05, 2013, 12:58:00 PM »
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Hey guys!  I have both GII gloss and matte coating with me.  I want to achieve the satin look.  Is anyone familiar with the mixture combination to achieve this look?  I was going to speak with BC rep but in the past I haven't gotten the best advice from them.  Appreciate the help!
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bill t.
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 02:27:27 PM »
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There's an urban legend that 30% matte is somehow optimal.  I think that's too much and totally kills the print.  Would recommend more like 10% matte, or even none at all.  GII gloss all by itself easily falls into the ballpark of "satin" by some measure.  I use plain Gloss, in part because I mount canvases which solves some of the weird reflection issues you get with stretched glossy canvas.  But mainly because it snaps up the print contrast and gives a nice, dark, unveiled Dmax.

Matte coatings are "matte" because they contain a powdery suspension that tends to precipitate to the bottom of the container.  You need to thoroughly stir the container before mixing, and then stir the mixed solution just before use.  You can feel the settled-out muck at the bottom of the contain with the stirring rod, which is also a good way to judge how often you need to stir it up.  If you are spraying, the gun can should be stirred if sits more than, oh, maybe 10 or 20 minutes.  Have heard of cases where matte coatings have easily clogged gravity feed HVLP guns at the point where the paint leaves the can.
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 05:12:36 PM »
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Here is our "Glamour Gloss II Magic Satin/Silk Formula":

First Coat:  40/60 water/gloss
   16 oz. distilled water + 24 oz. gloss
   heat water in microwave until warm; then add gloss
Second Coat:   30/21/9 water/gloss/matte
   15 oz. distilled water + 10.5 oz. gloss + 4.5 oz. matte
   heat water in microwave until warm; then add gloss and matte

A lot of work, but definitely magic.  (This is rolled, BTW).  Will work fine sprayed as well.

The warm distilled water seems to work amazingly well.  We determined that 2 coats worked fine.

(*Edit to confirm correct formula)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 10:09:09 PM by Mark Lindquist » Logged
rgvsdigitalpimp
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 05:23:58 PM »
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Hey Mark for first coat absolutely no water?  Just coating?
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 06:36:45 PM »
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Hey Mark for first coat absolutely no water?  Just coating?

No.  I updated the formula. I checked the book and saw our final formula was much "distilled" into its final form.   The second coat lowers the shine.  The idea is that the "base coat" is the cleanest deepest surface possible.
The building up of successive more matte (satin) coats will achieve that final silky look.  (You can experiment with adding a third and or fourth coat by cutting the mixture with warm distilled water if needed).  The formula, above seems complicated at first, but once you get it, it's easy.

The Impressionists used to use a multi-coat system which is what we based our technique on, through much experimentation.  
It is said that "Impressionism is about the fugitive quality of light as it falls on a surface...".   "(... it dates back to when painters literally put a finishing layer of varnish to their works at the start of an exhibition....")

The bottom coat is meant to reflect the light back through the top layers.  In a way, think of the gloss as the mirror effect of water, and the rest as the mist that appears on top of it at different times of the day.... (I know, block that metaphor, lol...).  It was called vernissage (varnishing)(to make the paintings look their best for opening night).

The best thing you can do is experiment on small swatches, labeling each one and making careful notes about how each swatch was done.  If you put the time into it, and approach it with a partly scientific, partly intuitive approach, you can definitely come up with a personal favorite.  Bear in mind that some pieces certain finishes work better for than others.  That's why it's good to have a notebook of your experiments.

-Mark
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 07:21:27 PM by Mark Lindquist » Logged
Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 07:22:26 PM »
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See revised formula above.  This is the correct one we ended up finalizing.
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bill t.
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 07:56:28 PM »
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I guess I'm more Jackson Pollock than Impressionist.  Three thin coats of 55:45 GII Gloss to water and I'm done.

By experimenting with the profiles generated from profiling targets with various amounts of coating, my three coat technique gives me the best boost in gamut, in addition to adequately protecting the canvas.  With matte canvas, even a single thin coat will significantly boost the gamut volume.  But going beyond 3 coats starts to pull down the brighter L values and raise the Dmax due to subtle hazing in the coating

Here's an example of two overlaid profiles generated from the very same Sunset Select Matte targets, by creating profiles from them after several successive coats.  The solid, colored hull is a profile generated from an uncoated canvas.  The wireframe is a profile generated from the same target after 4 thin coats.  Some observations...

1.  The coated canvas has heap more of gamut volume available in the dark areas, and in almost all areas.  But...

2.  With 4 coats, a lot of articulation is lost in the highlights, the bright areas at the top of shapes.  Notice the "4-coat" wireframe sinking down into the "no-coat" hull at the top of the graphs.

On this basis I shy away from laying down a lot of coats or heavy coats.  At three coats, the highlight areas in the profiles are basically identical, and those prints have a lot more snap than anything I can get from four coats.  The three coat profiles also have the largest overall gamut volume.

On a pragmatic basis, I have also found that the transparency I get from thin coats makes the canvas more resistant to overall hazing when there is light coming from behind the viewer's head.  This is one area where matte finishes have some advantage.  But for my tastes I would rather accept minor reflection problems at certain angles than give up any amount of image contrast.  No matte finish can compete with the apparent contrast you get from a glossy coating, those Impressionists certainly had that right.

And all that's another reason why I advocate weighing the gun before and after each coating pass, I don't want to overshoot the mark.

************************
PS I have often heard anecdotal reports that Bill Atkinson used to spray 100% GII Gloss at 98.6 degrees Farenheit as warmed up in a bath of water heated by an aquarium heater.  Can anybody deny or confirm this?
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 08:34:18 PM »
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Bill - I like your approach.  Notice in mine, I advocate 2 coats only, but state that more diluted coats could be added if necessary.

I hear you about the Matte boosting the gamut volume, but I think certain images can use different approaches, and one use does not always fit every application or vice versa.

I don't know about Atkinson's aquarium heating technique, but I can attest to the efficacy of heating and cutting with distilled water, which is something BC recommended at one point - not sure if they still do.

I might go back and see about your formula and see if I could live with the reflections.  Perhaps you'll try ours out and see if it does anything for you.  Nice to see different approaches.  Looking forward to hearing what others use as well.

I recently had some test samples come in with matte timeless, with some experiments by a pro, and man, that stuff kills everything - we both agreed.  I look back at the old Glamor Gloss II and had to check our records, it stands up very well and is very protective.
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kdphotography
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 09:03:28 PM »
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Except for Timeless matte on fine art papers, I use only Glamour II on canvas.  I've got the mixtures and dilutions dialed in so its easy.

Normally I use straight GII gloss, and diluted with very warm water, sprayed by hvlp.  If I need to knock down the gloss a little (I have a couple of clients that want this), I use GII gloss, and only need to use maybe 10% GII matte to cut the shine slightly, (90/10 GII gloss to GII matte).  I then use very warm water to dilute that mixture and spray by hvlp.

ken
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rgvsdigitalpimp
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 10:18:12 PM »
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Amazing advice and pointers guy.  You all's expertise is very much appreciated.  Page going into my favorites now.  Hey Bill, you print on SSMC by LJ?  The extra $100 per roll pkus shipping and 5 day waiting period for arrival is kind of pulling me back to LJ.  Is there really that much better quality in print output and finish with Lyve than LJ's product line? 
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 06:34:10 AM »
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What is the $100 fee you are referring too?
I get my most of my products from Lex Jet in one day and shipping is less then $20.00
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 06:36:16 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

ternst
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 06:41:04 AM »
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Hey Bill T., Bill Atkinson called me one Sunday morning many years ago and spent an hour going through his entire coating and stretching process with BC and Glamour II (he was very excited about both products) - always amazing how much work he puts in to get this sort of thing as good as can be. His mixture was 75% gloss varnish and 25% heated water, and he did keep the mixture heated with the fish tank heater to 98 degrees. I'm not sure what he uses now, but his original method has always served me well.
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rgvsdigitalpimp
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 07:28:07 AM »
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Dan, I'm referring to the price difference between BC's Lyve roll and LJ's rolls.  They're $100 more.  Plus shipping from BC takes like 5 days compared to 2 days for LJ.  My question was is the quality of color gamut and canvas that much of a difference to be spending that much more money and time for BC's products over LJ's?
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namartinnz
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 06:54:32 PM »
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For my own prints I use a 55-60% gloss/45-40 Matte ratio, with about 35% water, rolled on - one coat. I used to go with 50/50 split but wanted a little more gloss to give a more vibrant satin finish.  On Chromata White Canvas.

Neal
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bill t.
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 08:16:09 PM »
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^Sunset Select looks great on the wall.  It has about the same gamut as Lyve, largely thanks to a moderately high OBA content, versus Lyve's no-OBA content.  Won't argue the OBA thing here, but the Sunset Select prints to which I have access are still looking essentially as new in some very nasty lighting situations and at the five year mark are surviving much better than Premium Luster prints at the same locations.  I am very glad I made the switch to canvas when I did.

Sunset has a consistently finer weave and smoother surface than most of the Lyve samples I've seen.  It's also a little thinner, and a lot more supple.  Not sure what that means for stretching as I exclusively mount canvas these days.

If Lyve has any special character it's that its overall appearance has a kind of "solid" or even slightly "heavy" quality to it.  Lyve is rich in the midtones, whereas Sunset could be said to be more articulate in the lighter tones and highlights.  When coated Lyve is just a little better in the blues than other matte canvases.  Blues of course are the Achilles heel of matte media, it's very hard to get subtle, luminous blue gradations on matte and even a small improvement in the blues is of consequence.

But for most images, most matte canvases could be coaxed into a very similar looking prints.  I would use a lot of Lyve if the substrates were more consistent.  I buy a 24 x 40 roll a couple times a year hoping for the best, and so far every one of them has had a show-killer defect, such as excess thickness, varicose vein weave errors, and recently a tendency for the edges to curl which causes head bangs, which is partly a problem brought on by the long 8300 feed path.  And a few rolls have had over-the-top weave texture.  BC says I may have gotten "B" rolls by mistake.  When I pay full price, I don't want "B" rolls.

In the US a single roll of 24 x 40 Sunset roll costs about $95 delivered, versus more like $148 for Lyve.  IMHO Lyve is a slightly superior product, but maybe not by the ratio of 148/95.  Even at BC's 10 roll price, Sunset is still a better deal.
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Landscapes
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2013, 02:28:14 PM »
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Hey Bill... since you know so much about canvas, what are your thoughts on Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte?  I use it and quite like it.  It has a nice stretch, the coating is mostly good, just the odd drip but I consider that just the nature of canvas, and the price is $95 or so shipped from IT Supplies.  But since I haven't tried too many different brands, I'm not sure where it fits in the whole grand scheme of things.  I have been thinking of trying out their new Natural line since its free of OBAs, but it is a step up in price so not sure yet.  I know you don't stretch canvas but mount it, so the built in stretch factor isn't a big deal for you, but its lovely when stretching compared to the Canon canvas i was using a couple of years back which was stiff like cardboard.
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