Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: EVF magnification beats most DSLRs OVF with the Olympus VF-4  (Read 20779 times)
bcooter
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1055


Bang The Drum All Day


WWW
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2013, 02:52:11 AM »
ReplyReply

I was in the B&H mega store in NY the other day, and had a chance to look through several EVF.

HOLY CRAP!l!

No, I seriously mean  HOLY FREAKING CRAP!

They should come with a Surgeon General warning! If I suffered from seziours, I would have certainly got one on the spot. All that flicker, jittery movement, frozen movement when shutter half depressed...

The worst was Fuji XE-1. The best (but still eons away from OVF) was the new Olympus. I guess the only way to find them remotely acceptable is to be born after the digital revolution.




I don't know about Sony or Fuji, but have the OMD and Gh3 with evf.

The OMD, you have to learn the menu and that's not an easy task with 86 something menu options, or more, who knows?

But once done you'll find a big difference.  The GH3 is almost perfect, out of the box and it will take you a while to realize it's not an EVF, except for the fact that WYSIWYG if you so desire.

You can set both to work semi like ovf for strobe work or if you want to see in virtual darkness.

I'm not selling you on an EVF but you can't walk into a store, spend a few minutes and understand without knowing the settings.

I personally like them, especially for manual focus because you can see what's in focus unlike a modern dslr and you can even set a zoom factor so it briefly zooms in on the subject and then backs away to full screen.

Some people find this limiting, though I think EVF are no more limiting than optical finders.  Optical finders in dslrs virtualy can not be focueed manually on moving subjects, suffer from flare, and require most people in set up to shoot a frame, move their head down, hit a button view the image, make an adjustment then spin and repeat.

EVF let you shoot and see exactly what your shooting, never move your eye from the viewfinder adjust exposure and shoot again.

All cameras are different, all have different plus and minuses but next time, give it a moment, set up a menu and try it then.

IMO

BC

Logged

ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 7252


WWW
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 05:21:22 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

BC has a lot of good points. I shoot both OVF and EVF. EVF can look awful at times, but it tends to show what you will get, it is usable for exact focusing (magnified) and has a loot of good perks like live histogram.

The SLR principle has evolved for something like 70 years, we are just at the beginning of EVF evolution.

Best regards
Erik




I don't know about Sony or Fuji, but have the OMD and Gh3 with evf.

The OMD, you have to learn the menu and that's not an easy task with 86 something menu options, or more, who knows?

But once done you'll find a big difference.  The GH3 is almost perfect, out of the box and it will take you a while to realize it's not an EVF, except for the fact that WYSIWYG if you so desire.

You can set both to work semi like ovf for strobe work or if you want to see in virtual darkness.

I'm not selling you on an EVF but you can't walk into a store, spend a few minutes and understand without knowing the settings.

I personally like them, especially for manual focus because you can see what's in focus unlike a modern dslr and you can even set a zoom factor so it briefly zooms in on the subject and then backs away to full screen.

Some people find this limiting, though I think EVF are no more limiting than optical finders.  Optical finders in dslrs virtualy can not be focueed manually on moving subjects, suffer from flare, and require most people in set up to shoot a frame, move their head down, hit a button view the image, make an adjustment then spin and repeat.

EVF let you shoot and see exactly what your shooting, never move your eye from the viewfinder adjust exposure and shoot again.

All cameras are different, all have different plus and minuses but next time, give it a moment, set up a menu and try it then.

IMO

BC


Logged

Guillermo Luijk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1274



WWW
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 06:42:09 AM »
ReplyReply

I was in the B&H mega store in NY the other day, and had a chance to look through several EVF.

HOLY CRAP!l!

Exactly the same as short minded photographers exclaimed when the first digital cameras appeared on the market!!! focusing on the performance of the very first implementations, and unable to see the revolution taking place in the following decade.
Logged

SZRitter
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 156


« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 08:40:15 AM »
ReplyReply

I was in the B&H mega store in NY the other day, and had a chance to look through several EVF.

HOLY CRAP!l!

No, I seriously mean  HOLY FREAKING CRAP!

They should come with a Surgeon General warning! If I suffered from seziours, I would have certainly got one on the spot. All that flicker, jittery movement, frozen movement when shutter half depressed...

The worst was Fuji XE-1. The best (but still eons away from OVF) was the new Olympus. I guess the only way to find them remotely acceptable is to be born after the digital revolution.


That's why I went Olympus OM-D EM-5 instead of Fuji X-E1 when I sold my Nikon. The X-E1's EVF is just plain horrible...
Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 5534



WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2013, 09:20:45 AM »
ReplyReply

What "flicker, jittery movement, frozen movement when shutter half depressed"?

Auto-focus hunting?

Sony have obsoleted and replaced my SLT-A35 by the A38 and now the A58, so it's not the latest EVF but there's no frozen movement when the shutter is half-depressed.

I believe that can be explained by the use of a translucent mirror for focusing in Sony cameras.

What I noticed with Fuji is that, when tracking a moving subject, depressing the shutter half way to focus will, briefly, freeze the image. Just moving the camera around, exploring the composition of even stationary subjects, results in a jittery image. Once you settle on a composition, and there is no subject movement, all is good.

Most cameras I handled that day had the displayes set to show everything the camera has to offer, ultimately looking like a Christmas tree. Focusing areas were turning from white to green, beeping along the way, warning lights were blinking, horizons tilting, face-detection hunting passerby...an experience not unlike New York traffic Wink

I am sure that can be turned off and viewfinders ultimately adjusted to one's liking though. Just as I am sure that one, including myself, can learn to ultimately live with (and love) EVF. If I would be buying something in that category today, it would be an Olympus EPL-5 with VF-4.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
AFairley
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1131



« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2013, 11:16:33 AM »
ReplyReply

I was in the B&H mega store in NY the other day, and had a chance to look through several EVF.

HOLY CRAP!l!

No, I seriously mean  HOLY FREAKING CRAP!

They should come with a Surgeon General warning! If I suffered from seziours, I would have certainly got one on the spot. All that flicker, jittery movement, frozen movement when shutter half depressed...

The worst was Fuji XE-1. The best (but still eons away from OVF) was the new Olympus. I guess the only way to find them remotely acceptable is to be born after the digital revolution.


Well, Slobadan, this is sort of like going under the focusing cloth of a view camera and going "WTF, it's upside down!"   Wink  There are upsides and downsides to every viewfinding system, the issue for any particular user is whether the upsides of a particular one outweigh the downsides.  Obviously for you, the downsides predominate with the EVF. 
Logged

Manoli
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486


« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2013, 11:24:01 AM »
ReplyReply

... this is sort of like going under the focusing cloth of a view camera and going "WTF, it's upside down!"   Wink 

What a wonderfully appropriate analogy !
Logged
Isaac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2660


« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2013, 12:00:34 PM »
ReplyReply

Well, Slobadan, this is sort of like ...

... picking up a split-image focusing screen SLR and going "WTF, the central semi-circle is completely black!"
Logged
bcooter
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1055


Bang The Drum All Day


WWW
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2013, 01:50:05 PM »
ReplyReply



I am sure that can be turned off and viewfinders ultimately adjusted to one's liking though. Just as I am sure that one, including myself, can learn to ultimately live with (and love) EVF. If I would be buying something in that category today, it would be an Olympus EPL-5 with VF-4.


Slobodan,

Once again I and you know it's all down to personal preference.

I've known people that love waist level finders and other than at lower positions, I find them very annoying, though I use them on my Contax, so go figure.  (I think I do it because the camera looks better with a wlf and it sounds better). 

But  . . . I've never looked through a camera and seen the perfect view or response.

My Contax, most medium format has a delay and I become familiar with it quickly.   Heck I've shot in studio fast sports with it and just judged the moment.

In fact with all mirrored cameras the rule is if you ever see the perfect image in the viewfinder you probably missed it.

I find it funny and have tested this where I shoot 10 to about 15 fps with the 1dx and you can still miss the perfect expression because the camera and the subject are off sync of each other (that I blame on the photo gods).

I do like EVF and your right the Oly ep4 finder is great, though that camera is tiny, tiny.  It's pretty, but it's not small enough to go into a pocket, not big enough to put a camera strap around your shoulder (well you can but it would make Tom Cruise look like the incredible hulk.)

But once again it's all personal.  Some people love rangefinders like the m series leicas.  I do also as long as I'm using a 35mm lens equivalent but wider and you see the lens in the finder blocking 1/4 of the frame, longer lenses and your peering at a 1/8" image trying to focus.

EVF's fix that and I think will get better and better.

But if you really want to experience fun, try a 16mm Beaulieu.  It's like looking through an old soda bottle.

IMO

BC
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 5534



WWW
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2013, 10:59:47 PM »
ReplyReply

What a wonderfully appropriate analogy !

Sorry, kids, but I'll have to rain on your WTF parade. Comments like those can come only from photographic ignoramuses, the digital generation, who's idea of a camera is that thing that can make phone calls too, and which is to be held as far from one's nose as a baby with a dirty diaper.

I, on the other hand, have 40 years of experience of looking through OVF, from SLRs to medium format ground glass (inverted left to right), from Hasselblad prism finders to Pentax articulated ones (for LX). And I was using split image before some of you were born. So, no, you can't compare a WTF comment from someone who's never seen a camera with a WTF comment by someone who's been doing it as long as I have.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
hjulenissen
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1666


« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2013, 05:31:19 AM »
ReplyReply


Slobodan,

Once again I and you know it's all down to personal preference.
OVF contains an inherent set of strengths and weaknesses. EVF contains an inherent set of strengths and weaknesses. Depending on the weight you put on each parameter, the sum might tip in the direction of one or the other. Slobodan may have one such weighting, and I think that is ok.

If camera manufacturers and photographers were all "rational", one might expect the "best" contender to win. I.e. the technology that had the best set of features judged by the largest set of photographers, including a complexity that allowed manufacturers to make the products, sell them at prices outcompeting other manufacturers, while still making a healthy profit.

I don't think that the world is perfectly rational (and it might be a sad world to live in). Still, "let us assume..." may provide some insight into how the world ticks.

For me, I'll just tag along. If the manufacturer of my lens collection choose to release a compatible camera in 2-3 years that has no mirror, I will review it and may purchase it if I am satisfied. If not, I might purchase a new camera featuring a mirror, or just keep my old one.

-h
Logged
Manoli
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486


« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2013, 07:19:10 AM »
ReplyReply

Sorry, kids, but I'll have to rain on your WTF parade. Comments like those can come only from photographic ignoramuses, the digital generation, who's idea of a camera is that thing that can make phone calls too, and which is to be held as far from one's nose as a baby with a dirty diaper.

I, on the other hand, have 40 years of experience of looking through OVF, from SLRs to medium format ground glass (inverted left to right), from Hasselblad prism finders to Pentax articulated ones (for LX). And I was using split image before some of you were born. So, no, you can't compare a WTF comment from someone who's never seen a camera with a WTF comment by someone who's been doing it as long as I have.

A truly considered, measured and eloquent response to some (sorely lacking) levity !
Logged
Isaac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2660


« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2013, 10:47:53 AM »
ReplyReply

So, no, you can't compare a WTF comment from someone who's never seen a camera with a WTF comment by someone who's been doing it as long as I have.

Seems completely appropriate to compare a WTF comment from someone who's apparently never looked through a particular EVF before, to a WTF comment from someone who's never looked through a particular OVF before ;-)
Logged
BJL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5121


« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2013, 10:49:38 AM »
ReplyReply

Comments like those can come only from photographic ignoramuses, the digital generation, who's idea of a camera is that thing that can make phone calls too, and which is to be held as far from one's nose as a baby with a dirty diaper.

I, on the other hand, have 40 years of experience of looking through OVF ...
Slobodan, I very much doubt that any of the people in this thread are photographic ignorami whose only experience of photographic equipment is with modern compact snap-shot taking devices that lack OVF's. Looking at another recent thread, most participants in those forum think of the new mirrorless system cameras as their "small camera", used to complement their SLR or MF or LF gear.

Instead I would say that this forum's participants are divided into two groups:
- people with considerable experience using OVFs on SLRs and such, who also have significant experience with EVFs.
- people with considerable experience using OVFs on SLRs and such, who so far have little or experience with EVFs, and yet many of whom have strong adverse options of them.


I leave it to you to decide where the uncomfortably high ratio of opinion to experience actually lies.
Logged
wildlightphoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 610


« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2013, 09:03:32 AM »
ReplyReply


The SLR principle has evolved for something like 70 years, we are just at the beginning of EVF evolution.


I believe that there is potenital for great advances in EVF development but for SLRs the implementation of the principle has been devolving for a couple of decades.  A few seconds peering into the viewfinder of a 1968 Leicaflex SL illustrates how the cumulative compromises of a modern DLSR viewfinder have made this essential component nearly useless for one of the primary advantages of the concept.  It's no wonder that some people prefer an EVF over a modern DSLR OVF.  The typical DSLR OVF just plain sucks and it doesn't have to.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 09:05:37 AM by wildlightphoto » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 5534



WWW
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2013, 09:44:55 AM »
ReplyReply

Slobodan, I very much doubt that any of the people in this thread are photographic ignorami ...

Correct. But I never claimed otherwise. My phrase "comments like those" referred to the WTF comments ("image upside down" or "split image half black").

As for opinion vs. experience ratio...I thought it was clear I was talking about my FIRST IMPRESSION, for which, by definition, you do not need experience. You might have also noticed that I never disputed any of the advantages of EVF, well elaborated by others. In other words, I do not have a "strong, adverse opinion" of THEM, but of one particular aspect of them (i.e., jittery image).
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 09:47:46 AM by Slobodan Blagojevic » Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 5534



WWW
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2013, 10:18:39 AM »
ReplyReply

Seems completely appropriate to compare a WTF comment from someone who's apparently never looked through a particular EVF before, to a WTF comment from someone who's never looked through a particular OVF before ;-)

Once again you sem to prefer to engage in semantic hairsplitting and sophisms, rather than make an effort to understand what I was saying. Your comparison above would be valid for two photographic ignoramuses, both of which are ignorant of basic elements of photographic history and technique. Your comparison loses its sophistic seductiveness, however, if one of them isn't.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
Isaac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2660


« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2013, 11:40:40 AM »
ReplyReply

Once again I and you know it's all down to personal preference.
Logged
Guillermo Luijk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1274



WWW
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2013, 02:02:55 PM »
ReplyReply

I, on the other hand, have 40 years of experience of looking through OVF, from SLRs to medium format ground glass (inverted left to right), from Hasselblad prism finders to Pentax articulated ones (for LX). And I was using split image before some of you were born. So, no, you can't compare a WTF comment from someone who's never seen a camera with a WTF comment by someone who's been doing it as long as I have.

That is a good example of ad hominem argument. Another example could be: since you have been 40 years using OVF's, you are too biased towards that kind of device to objectively judge in the OVF vs EVF debate.
Logged

bcooter
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1055


Bang The Drum All Day


WWW
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2013, 02:14:56 PM »
ReplyReply

All of this will become a mute point when we have motion cameras that shoot a sharp, frozen 5 or 6 k image.

Then just scrub through find it no problem, other than the data size is 1 terabyte an hour.

At least the viewfinder will be smooth.

You can see the development in something like the panasonic gh3.  Good viewfinder, touch screen focus, even photograph a face, put it in the menu and the camera will find them in a crowd.   Honestly amazing.

IMO

BC
Logged

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad